I looked for it at the library today, but they said it's too new so they probably don't have it. She said she'd look through some other libraries' cataloges to see if they could mail it to my hometown though.

Kari wrote: "Jeannie, I'd like your copy when you're done! They don't have it at my library yet. I can send it on to someone else when I finish. "

Hi Kari!I will definitely pass the bk on to you! Maybe I'll just bring you the bk in a couple wks--I won't have to mail it then!

I can't wait to read Shiver! Unfortunately, the waiting list at my library must be really long because the estimated wait time is "undetermined". LOL That's never good...It was only about $10 on B&N's website, so I may go ahead and just buy it. It sounds like a good one!

Jeannie, I'd like your copy when you're done! They don't have it at my library yet. I can send it on to someone else when I finish.

Bill wrote: "I'll put mine up for grabs after I've read it. Perhaps I'd better start reading it early!"

I can also give mine up when I'm done. I'm going to try and get it this week. I can get the softcover here in the US and wouldn't mind mailing it out.Just let me know if anyone wants (Shiver) it!

I am looking forward to reading about Shiver, no time to read the book just yet.

((I'm so glad we are not doing The Thirteenth Child right away...! ))

I read AGATB several months ago, so I'm not ganna read it again, but that shouldn't be a problem, I have photographic memory when it comes to a good story!
I'm looking forward to shiver though. I didn't vote for it but it was my second choice (of 4 LOL.)

I'm going to get AGATB tomorrow...I'm excited!!!

I am excited, I have Shiver on my shelf, and I read A Great and Terrible Beauty a while ago, but maybe I will get in on audio from the library for my rides to and from work.

I wouldn't mind doing the same...if it's not too expensive to ship. And of course if I can get through it fast...which I think I might be able to sqeeze it amongst my school work.

I'll put mine up for grabs after I've read it. Perhaps I'd better start reading it early!

A thought about getting some of you UK types in on Shiver, are there people who own the book who might be willing to swap it around with people who don't? I don't own the book, but it's an idea if people want. We do it on some of my other GR groups.

Misty wrote: "Fiona wrote: "Reading will start in September and I will create a discussion topic in the appropriate folder (called Book Club Discussion, descriptively enough) but it isn't so organised!

Unless p..."

I second that Misty. Less organization = more fun.

Ooooh, I really want to read Shiver!

Fiona wrote: "Reading will start in September and I will create a discussion topic in the appropriate folder (called Book Club Discussion, descriptively enough) but it isn't so organised!

Unless people would like it to be? usually people just discuss it as they read etc. "

I like the way we do it, with people jumping in when they want to. Assigned chapters is too much like homework, and then you feel like you have to discuss only whats in those chapters, and not the book as a whole. I think our discussions go just fine now.

I had a look. Its over 400 pages. I will try and find time to read it

It's about average I think - not very short not long either.

Is AGATB a long book? I cant buy any until i get paid and if its long i wont have time to read it for group read

There's not a copy in my entire library system (that makes it sound like it's huge, doesn't it? It's not), so I guess I'll be sitting that one out. I can probably remember enough about AGATB to join in on that discussion though.

Yeah there would be no guarentee of getting it on time for the group read

That's not Amazon and most of them don't have the book in stock they just use a database for listings.

Rebecca wrote: "OK so now that we have our winners what do we do? Is there a specific criteria we follow as we read? Are there due dates for certain chapters? Do we read both books simultaneously or just pick o..."

Reading will start in September and I will create a discussion topic in the appropriate folder (called Book Club Discussion, descriptively enough) but it isn't so organised!

Unless people would like it to be? usually people just discuss it as they read etc.

Bill wrote: "Actually you can't get from Amazon UK anymore.
Use bookdepository.co.uk they are much better."

I checked today and you could get it from the marketplace sellers

OK so now that we have our winners what do we do? Is there a specific criteria we follow as we read? Are there due dates for certain chapters? Do we read both books simultaneously or just pick one? sorry I have never done this before.

Actually you can't get from Amazon UK anymore.
Use bookdepository.co.uk they are much better.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Shiver-Maggie-St...

This link go to amazon where you can buy the hardback version now in the UK. Its quite expensive though! The paperback is out 5th October and is less expensive

September winners are Shiver by Maggie Stiefvater and A Great and Terrible Beauty.

Please note if you're from the UK you won't be able to get Shiver until October! Apologies to any British people who are disappointed perhaps you could read another book by the same author?

*unbow*

Nothing wrong with being passionate about words!

*rebow*

LOL... Well, I didn't want to be misunderstood! That's so easy when text is the only medium for communication we have, and you can't see my face or hear my tone or anything. So I just wanted to be absolutely clear (or as clear as my piddling communication skills allow) about what I meant.

*shrug*

But I am pathetic too. ;) *sigh*

Becky wrote: "*bows back in for one final parting thought* :)"

Well, we didn't last long. We're pathetic.

:D

Becky wrote: "And if loving Harry Potter means I worship the Devil, then hand me a pitchfork and some SPF 5000.

*really bows back out* :D ♥♥ "

HAHAHA, me too girl, me too!

Wow. Just wow. To say South America deserved annihalation at the hands of the conquistadors is fairly harsh. FYI there were many contributions from the Latin Americas. The Incas revolutionized terrace farming and also had an excellent infrastructure as well as organizing things in tens thus having an efficient beauocracy. Sites such as Machu Picchu, perched in a saddle 10,000 feet (3,000 meters) high between two Andean peaks, gives an idea of what Inca urban planning must have been.The Mayans had the concept of zero and their own special calender.

Also how are the Mayan/Aztec/Incan human sacrifices any different from the Romans who sacrificed Christians to the lions, or the Salem Witch burnings?

I understand the point about human violence towards other humans being terrible, but it's not just the South Americans.

Also, on the whole land thing, how would you like it if somebody knocked on your door carrying a gun, said get out, and claimed your house for themselves? I think it's a myth to see those lands as unpopulated. Prior to the age of exploration, millions upon millions of Native people were living in North and South America, to see it as empty land for the taking is to propgate a falsity.

Sorry, maybe my blood level is up because I've been sitting in history teacher seminar all day. That being said I would be interested in possibly doing a multicultural reading of The Thirteenth Child, just to compare it with my knowledge of history which is pretty extensive LOL. Again, just making some points with the knowledge that I do I have, I may have a little more expertise than some because I've spent four and a half years studying to be a history teacher. LOL, please please excuse my curmidgeonish-ness.

*bows back in for one final parting thought* :)

I just want to say that I was not accusing Wrede of anything. I don't know her, or her work, or anything about her other than what I read in the links Emily provided and the ones I found on my own.

I didn't intend to come across as accusatory, if I did. I was simply questioning why a controversial decision that would definitely have an effect on many, many people should be made so lightly and without any explanation from the author, and explaining (or trying to explain) why I don't agree with that course of action, and further trying to explain how others may see it.

I DO NOT think that Wrede is racist, or that she wrote a book that intentionally promotes racism or bigotry. Nor do I think that people who read it will automatically begin persecuting people. The book could be amazing, and probably is.

Maybe I am splitting hairs here, but I think that there is a difference between forming an opinion of the book itself and forming one regarding the author's decisions for what to include in it. Fiona, I agree with you that judging the book before having read it isn't fair - and I haven't done that, nor have I boycotted the book. I simply agree with Emily that I do not agree with the choices that Wrede made with regard to which aspects of history to alter - but even more than that, I disagree with her unwillingness to discuss that decision when it is clear that it people have been offended by it.

I recognize that she is fully within her rights to do both of those things. Does my not agreeing with Wrede's choice make her book a bad book? No, it doesn't. But whether or not the book is a good book without Native Americans being included in it is not what I'm discussing at all. I'm merely commenting on the decision to exclude them because that is the only information I have.

But I do feel strongly that while authors may not be responsible for educating the world, they should be mindful of the impact that their decisions can have on people. Wrede's silence on this seems, to me, to downplay the issue as if there is no reason for anyone to take issue at all, which is really the problem that I have. An acknowledgement of the fact that her choice may upset people is all I'd like to see. But instead, she says nothing and leaves people to draw their own conclusions. Which is what we've done.

*bows back out* :) ♥

And if loving Harry Potter means I worship the Devil, then hand me a pitchfork and some SPF 5000.

*really bows back out* :D ♥♥

Fiona wrote: "Does Harry Potter mean that you worship the Devil, going to be tempted to evil etc etc?"

Okay, I am still bowed out, because this is not about Wrede.
Fiona, have you seen Jesus Camp? The pastor of the doc goes off abotu Harry Potter. One of the funniest/creepiest/craziest things I've ever seen. Watch it.

I hardly think Wrede is in the same boat as Holocaust deniers. For one there is no proof she did what she did out of racist inclinations. As Misty says, it doesn't read that way.

The more you jump around something with accusations the more it builds up.

Does Harry Potter mean that you worship the Devil, going to be tempted to evil etc etc? Will reading Wrede's book make you more ignorant? No it won't. You can't force a political agenda onto everything just because of our children. Some books are there to teach and provide a sense of morality, some aren't... Wrede wasn't being racist. I'm not saying her choice to cut NA references (at least) out was a good creative choice either as I haven't read it.

Anyway, I'm bowing out now as well. Maybe it will be next week's book of the month.

Thanks for clarifying Nausheen.

In regards to the human sacrifices you mentioned specifically, I'm not a big fan, but I also am not a follower of their religion/belief system. I think that believing the sacrifice is necessary for the well-being of the tribe as a whole is a major factor in continuing that tradition or ritual, as opposed to traditions that have lost most, if not all, of the meaning and purpose they once held, and are continued on simply because they are tradition.

However, I feel that people should be allowed to believe and practice and live how they choose, even if we don't understand it. :)

Alright Misty, let's tentatively bow together, if that's alright with you. (:

It was sort of like colonization itself wasn't necessarily subjugation in the book. Colonization was necessary to keep dangerous magical creatures at bay (and even non magical, like Mammoths), so the whole 'westward ho!' mentality wasn't fueled by Indian slaughter, it was fueled by magical necessity and expansion. I get why this is still upsetting to people, and if it was presented in a way (like the Holocaust deniers that Emily mentioned), I would find it unsettling and horrible too. But it just didn't read that way.

Anyway, I think I've said enough, you all get my opinion, so I bow out.




(let's see how long that lasts...)

Becky I appreciate your honesty and thanks for being fair. I haven't read the book, but judging by the ripple it has caused here I think a lot of people have an opinion about the book and its plot. I assume it is doing well in some literary circles or we wouldn't even bother to talk about it, because there are a lot more other out of the box fantasies out there.

I partially meant that human race as a whole has a long history of racial violence and religious warfare, I just wish everyone got along a little better or maybe had the same yardstick for measuring progress. And well I have been reading on the natives, I must say I haven't found anything to blame the North American natives, but it is the South Americans ones that seem to be talked about. I just felt they could do a lot better than hang onto all those rituals, human sacrifices never did anyone any good. So are you saying they are better off in the jungle cos it worked for them all these eons, are we talking survival or living? No offense.I do see your point on personal happiness.

I feel I agree with the view that the author of this particular book actually just meant to rewrite history and didn't know how except to completely erase something she considered difficult to write about without choosing sides, there can never be any justification in subjugation of a race or even a conquest. Maybe she meant a simple wholesome Peter Pan-ish vision of the Discovery of America.

I used to like Chakotay's character from Star Trek: Voyager, he seemed like a good officer to have on board and wasn't he related to the NA? I diverge,...excuse me.

There are books written where the extermination of Jews by the Nazis never occured; those books are written by Holocaust deniers. Granted, those deluded people think they are writing history rather than fiction, so it is not comparable to Wrede's book. I'm not calling her work Mein Kampf. I'm not saying it is poorly written. Like I said before, I'm guessing it is quite good, as Wrede is a good author. My problem is with the premise of the book. I may be alone in thinking that you do not need to read a book to find its premise distasteful.

I also kind of doubt that Wrede would want to come and talk to us about this, I found one interview where she was asked about this subject and deigned not to comment.
http://community.livejournal.com/enchant...
I do not mean to discourage anyone from trying, and I hope that members of Wild Things could agree that I have been civil during this discussion and realize that I would not attack an author with whom I disagree.

Fiona, I find your use of the word "lynch" to be an unfortunate choice in a discussion about racism. That is a very loaded term and has a deeper effect on some people than I think you realize. I'm saying this not to attack you, but because I get the feeling that you're the kind of person who doesn't want to hurt people unintentionally, and I hope you take it in that spirit. I certainly agree with you that the ways in which we "simplify" history for students are very problematic; your example is an excellent one.

Anyway, as it seems unlikely that I'll have that chance, I'll just agree to disagree and move on. :)

I'm not trying to lynch anyone, Fiona. I don't think I've been rude or unreasonable or argumentative.

And I haven't passed judgement on the book either. For all I know, the book could be just as good as Misty says it is.

I'm just expressing my opinions on the information I have and I would like to ask her about the book.

Very few books I have read or history lessons (more importantly) in school touch upon the disabled, or the gypsies or homosexuals who were rounded up and killed in Germany. The only difference is that most of the time it isn't an alternate history...

Wrede's book is hardly Mein Kamf and shouldn't be judged till you've read it, other wise it is just assumptions.

And I hardly think Wrede would want to do a Q&A if she's going to be lynched.

Misty, I think that a role reversal of the type you mentioned would be upsetting to some, but I don't think that it would have the same kind of impact.

Imagine if the idea that was being explored was that Hitler had succeeded in exterminating all Jews. Or that Jews never existed in the first place. For such a persecuted group to suddenly have never existed sends a large message, especially if the author answers inquiries with silence. And that's essentially what Wrede can be argued to have done, right or wrong.

I would absolutely love it if she was to come for a Q&A session. Fiona - wanna work your magic again? ;)

I'm fine with authors exploring ideas, but I do expect them to also acknowledge that all we have on which to base our opinions of their opinions are the words they write down of that exploration. If they do not want to give any additional insight into their ideas or whatever, that's their right, but again, what's NOT said speaks just as loudly as what is, and the silence doesn't always say what is meant.

Writing a story about "what ifs" is fine, but there is always going to be an impact on someone, and if the author wants us to "get" her idea, then she should make sure that we do. If she doesn't care about her readers and just wants us to buy her book, well, that's another issue altogether. *shrug*

And I think if someone wrote about WWII and changed it so that the Jews were never persecuted, or were the persecutors even, it would cause a HUGE uproar, but that doesn't mean it was meant to be offensive or that it was even irresponsible. It's an author exploring an idea, and you have to take it for what it is.

Misty wrote: "I really do think it would be awesome if we could read this book at some point and get Wrede herself to participate in the discussion. Because we're generating a lot of great thoughts and passion a..."

I agree very much. At the moment we're making a lot of judgements about a book we haven't read - and accusing it of being racist which was probably not her intention.

It's like writing about the second world war and not mentioning the Jewish holocaust (though people never bother mentioning all the other people who were killed as well as the Jews)

Nausheen, I don't know if I understand what you're talking about. Progress for progress' sake is no better than holding on to worthless traditions for traditions' sake.

But people who live in a way that is different from how YOU live do so because it works for them, or because that is what their beliefs tell them is right, etc.

Perhaps you could give an example of what you mean, though, because right at this moment I think I might be reading too much into what you're saying and not liking it a whole lot. I do want to be fair!