you said to Kathryn:
I looked up Palahniuk and Bukowski, just so I could see what their writing is actually classified as. I swear, I can't believe there are so many distinctions, but I thought it was super interesting that they are both considered transgressive fiction writers. So here's what wikipedia says about that:

Transgressive fiction is a genre of literature that focuses on characters who feel confined by the norms and expectations of society and who use unusual and/or illicit ways to break free of those confines. Because they are rebelling against the basic norms of society, protagonists of transgressional fiction may seem mentally ill, anti-social and/or nihilistic. The genre deals extensively with taboo subject matters such as drugs, sex, violence, incest, pedophilia, and crime.

Transgressional fiction shares similarities with splatterpunk, noir and erotic fiction in its willingness to portray forbidden behaviors and shock readers. But it differs in that protagonists often pursue means to better themselves and their surroundings—albeit unusual and extreme ones. Much transgressional fiction deals with searches for self-identity, inner peace and/or personal freedom. Unbound by usual restrictions of taste and literary convention, its proponents claim that transgressional fiction is capable of pungent social commentary.

There is also some overlap with Literary minimalism, as many Transgressional writers use short sentences and simplistic style. Some examples of this type of writing are:
anything by Chuck Palahniuk
anything by Charles Bukowski
William S. Burroughs
Anthony Burgess A CLOCKWORK ORANGE
Bret Easton Ellis -- LESS THAN ZERO and AMERICAN PSYCHO, among others
TRAINSPOTTING by Irvine Welsh...
and the list goes on. Love to discuss this type of writing style will some of you! Tell us about your experiences with reading the TABOO...

I haven't read anything in this classification of fiction. It sounds interesting though - does anyone have a good recommendation?

I've read a couple of things by Chuck Palahniuk. FIGHT CLUB, CHOKE, LULLABY and I have HAUNTED, which is voted as the most disturbing book ever by a lot of goodreaders...I think that will be my next foray. Unless I can get my hands on some Bukowski at our library. I'm trying to read on the cheap and its hard with the stuff I like. There's a new thread right there...here I go!

I would love to read more transgressive writing but honestly, I can only handle it once in awhile. I want to reread A Clockwork Orange since it's been years and I think I would be able to appreciate it more.

Of Chuck Palahniuk's work, I've only read Survivor (not strongly recommended even though it's well written) and Choke, which I found to be pretty funny.

Now Charles Bukowski I find incredibly interesting. I first read The Most Beautiful Woman in Town, a collection of short stories, was initially impressed, yet ended up feeling very angry to have read it. I've since grown to appreciate it. What I would really recommend is his poetry. I've only read Burning in Water, Drowning in Flame but I loved it.

I would reecommend Hunger, though as usual I'm unsure if the book fits this category, and I guess Crime and Punishment also loosely fits the definition. I love that book. I also strongly recommend Lolita, another I really should read again.

I think I've enjoyed just as many transgressive characters in movies as in books. Less Than Zero and American Psycho by Ellis I thought were good films. I've heard that the movies are only loosely based on the books. As for Trainspotting, I would recommend the movie over the book. I'm sure I just made someone mad for saying some of this. :)

Haha...nothing wrong with healthy banter, Kathryn. There are no fights allowed though...Nicole has been telling me for years to read TRAINSPOTTING. I'll get around to it. Really want to read C&P and I'd like to read some Burroughs, just to be well-rounded. ULYSSES is also on my list...oh, to have leisure time again...

I have Naked Lunch but I haven't been in a trippy kind of mood. I'm slightly afraid to read it, one of those love it or hate it books IMO.

I'm about 1/3 of the way through Exquisite Corpse. It's unlike anything I've ever read. I'll probably finish it this next month. I think it' my first serial killer book but I saw somewhere that Brite can be considered transgressional. I can see that, simply for the subject matter alone. Has anyone read any of her other books?

I have a few on my TBR list. I know she writes nonfiction, and I'm not a fan of that, as you know. I will probably read her eventually, but she's not at the top of my list.

well, to go back to some of the grand-daddies of this genre most scholars would cite the marquis de sade, but I think his brand of satirical writing is so funny, i have a hard time cramming him into that box. but i realize when you look at the words and acts in books like justine or the 120 days of sodom, you are reading the very epitome of the definition posted above in michelle's opening post.

lautremont, beaudelaire, rimbaud, genet, and even proust fits into this long pedigree of french literature that put this genre on the map.

Now french lit is something I know near nothing about. Would you recommend a particular book to start with?

well, the 120 days of sodom by the marquis de sade is among the most notorious of all the books (or, you may want to read his novel "justine", which is more from a feminine perspective).

but if you want something more contemporary and are cool with gay themes, then i recommend the following great novels by jean genet:

funeral rites
our lady of the flowers
miracle of the rose

genet is an interesting figure, he was left in an orphanage by his mother at an early age and grew up on the streets, and became kind of a thug. he was imprisoned and wrote his first novel "our lady of the flowers" and somehow it was passed on to jean-paul sartre, who worked to get him out of prison and helped him to establish his career as a man of letters. this was in the early 1950's, long before the onslaught of "prison novels" that have popped up in america since the late 1970's. his novels and plays are really unique in the 20th century canon, and explore our shadow side in beautiful and challenging ways.

there is also journey to the end of night, by paul celine, another notorious book on the subject of world war 1. instead of creating a kind of action novel on the subject of war, celine examines how our psyches are destroyed by it. it is important to remember that world war one was fought in "hand to hand" combat - and was the last war before we were able to just drop bombs in a sanitzed fashion and destroy thousands of people at the push of a button.

Thanks. I'd only really heard about de Sade's prison writing before now.

he wrote the 120 days of sodom while imprisoned in the bastille, but was freed when the revolutionaries stormed it.

Hi! Sorry I'm a little behind on the conversation. I've just spent the last bit catching up on all the threads. :)

I love this sub-genre! Most of the novels on my shelves (the ones I've bothered to go out and buy after checking them out of the library) fall into this category.
I've read most of the stuff mentioned already, though I haven't loved it all.

I have to say I've tried reading NAKED LUNCH a few times and just couldn't get through it. I own it because I really want to tackle it and win! but the disjointedness of it makes it difficult to absorb. at least for me.

TRAINSPOTTING is great... as is it's sequel, PORNO. i would suggest a book cover for that one if you're going to read it in public. I learned the hard and awkward way thanks to a bus ride to work with a load of seniors. :)

A few months ago I read RIGHT AWAY MONDAY by Joel Thomas Hynes (I was on a Canadian kick) and almost enjoyed it. If anyone has read it, I'd be interested to hear what you thought. It felt like just more of the same me- think of it as a less exciting (it does take place in NewFoundland after all) version of TRAINSPOTTING... complete with 'as spoken' dialogue.

Also, I think Hunter S. Thompson fits in here as well.

ive read most everything burroughs wrote, and i agree, naked lunch just might be the most difficult of all of them. my favorite burroughs is the place of dead roads, which is a return to a more clear narrative, even though there are parts of the novel where he shuffles the chronology of events from time to time. i love that book.

if you're interested in critical writing on burroughs, i whole-heartedly recommend robyn lydenberg's book word cultures. she explores burroughs' use of language and structure and she really knows what she's talking about. a great book that is an excellent guide to his writing and can really help readers get a grasp on the intentions (which i believe are noble) behind his writing.

Becky, I didn't know there's a sequel to Trainspotting. Thanks!

Phillip, I'm so glad you decided to join the group. I'm learning a lot, but my TBR list is growing by the minute...sigh...haha Thanks for all of the info. I think I want to read JOURNEY TO THE END OF NIGHT...gonna try to pick that one up. Psychological darkness is absolutely fascinating to me.

becky,
is that the same book (trainspotting) as the film (roughly?)??? i'd like to read that. everyone's list is growing...

and hunter thompson is a good choice. i prefer his early books. hell's angels and fear and loathing on the campaign trail '72 are super inspired and represent some ground breaking journalism. i appreciate fear and loathing in las vegas but i don't think it's on the same level, it has quite a few moments of lyrical greatness and mad comic appeal, but it doesn't really have the bumper crop of insights that the first books have.

michelle,
thank you for welcoming me, and for your invitation.. i'll post some things on the bookshelf soon.

it's definitely worth reading, phillip. for anyone interested... if we ever do a book swap, i'd be willing to part with both trainspotting and porno, as i've read them both a couple of times.

as for HST, i just read a piece about hell's angels, strangely enough. i think it might have moved closer to the top of my list :)

i'll check it out, becky. i have a little pile of books that are ready to go back to the store for trade, hopefully i can find trainspotting at one of my local used shops.

I tried to borrow TRAINSPOTTING from my bestie Nicole and she wouldn't give it up!! Hah! Someday, I'll get around to it. Our library doesn't have a lot of what I consider INTERESTING books...for example, the only Neil Gaiman they have at ALL is his children's books, CORALINE and THE GRAVEYARD BOOK.

Phillip wrote: "ive read most everything burroughs wrote, and i agree, naked lunch just might be the most difficult of all of them. my favorite burroughs is the place of dead roads, which is a return to a more cle..."

I think I'll give The Place of Dead Roads a try before Naked Lunch :)

it's a great book. it might be my favorite novel...ever...but please don't be afraid to say you have another opinion!

nonetheless, i think what he does with time in that book is really like cinema. it's like watching a contemporary film, where time gets shuffled a bit. there are a lot of films emerging today that uses this device. but on a more practical level, there are some passages in there that i think are among the most beautiful in american literature. i might just have to pull it off the shelf and post a few quotes....

in short, i hope you like it!

Phillip wrote: "it's a great book. it might be my favorite novel...ever...but please don't be afraid to say you have another opinion!..."

I hope not all of us agree on everything! We'd be bored pretty quick! :)

exactly!

i was just noticing he had written quite a few books, but i haven't heard of any of them.

YAY for this thread, i just joined the goup so obviously im a little behind. I had no idea what genre those types of books were either and ive been trying to figure it out because well they're kind of my favorite, lol. im about to read Choke by Chuck Palahniuk and Clockwork Orange as soon as i buy that one.. today. Now thanks to this thread ill be looking into Trainspotting.

you guys have awesome taste =)

Yay! I'm gald this thread has peaked your guys interest in some of these books. I'm in a Palahniuk mood again so I'll try to find another of his books soon.

I recently read Irvine Welsh's Filth..and if you like Chuck P., you'll probably love Filth. Love the movie Trainspotting, but I never see the book anywhere!!

Kathryn: If you haven't read it yet, Chuck P's 'Pygmy' was great...IMO. It's got the usual cynical darkness, but it's a lot funnier than most of his books.

Bethany: Let us know how you like Choke. I recently watched the movie and thought it was great (Sam Rockwell rules), but have yet to read the book.

A Clockwork Orange is a classic. 'Nuff said.

well i havent got my hands on Choke but i do have Haunted and well, i usually finish books longer than this in 2 days and ive had this for 5 days and im not even half way through it. some chapters, disturbing. other chapters, boring. I really hope Choke is better.

oh and i just ordered Trainspotting =) woo cant wait til it shows up in my mailbox

Bethany wrote: "oh and i just ordered Trainspotting =) woo cant wait til it shows up in my mailbox "

Looking forward to you review.

I have PYGMY and CLOCKWORK ORANGE and HAUNTED all on my nightstand to read soon. I'll post when I review.

I wish I had Haunted. Been wanting to read that one.

I'll mail it to you when I'm done if you want. It was REALLY hard for me to get for a bargain!

Ahh, I'd feel bad! Keep your copy and I'll continue looking! :)

I have Choke. I hated it so much I'll give the damn thing to ya!

Hey you!!! I liked that book! ;) You can always send me any of his others!

Rob wrote: "Kathryn: If you haven't read it yet, Chuck P's 'Pygmy' was great...IMO. It's got the usual cynical darkness, but it's a lot funnier than most of his books.
..."
Sounds good, I'll keep my eyes out for it. :)

Marvin wrote: "I have Choke. I hated it so much I'll give the damn thing to ya!"

I have to agree w/you on the Author:Palahniuk.(puke) I read his book Haunted & was so disgusted, I threw it away.. I Like Never throw books away but that 1 totally broke my rule.. (puke)

Ok, let's agree to send all Hated Palahniuk novels to Kathryn instead of throwing them away!!! I might have to fight some others in the group for them though. ;) I may not love all of his books but I defintiely find them interesting.

We're all entitled to our tastes in literature; however unusual it is... As for Palahniuk,that was the only book I ever owned (thank goodness)
When I read a book, I also read what I consider to be part of the Writer; expressing himself through his works... That is why I find him Gross :)

I've only read Fight Club, but I'd gladly read more Palahniuk. He's not bad, just a little hard to follow at times.

Send any unwanted Palahniuk books that Kathryn already has MY way!

and send me copies of trainspotting! ;)
i've been looking all over for copies of that book and can't find it anywhere.

Me too, Phillip. I don't think I've ever seen Trainspotting in a store.

i guess you have to know the right dealer...

i'm going to look for it on abebooks, along with crash, by j.g. ballard. can't find that anywhere either.

I keep asking for used copies of Fear and Loathing at the book store and they just laugh at me. I guess no one lets those copies go either.

Haunted is one of my all time favorites, and is very disturbing. It's amazing.