Another good book from a credobaptist perspective is Fred Malone's Baptism of Disciples Alone. Malone, a former paedobaptist, argues for believer's only baptism within a covenantal framework.

http://www.founderspress.com/shop/store....

From the Reformed Paedo-side i've heard that "Children of the Promise: The Biblical Case for Infant Baptism" is the book to have

From the Reformed Credo-side
Greg Welty's “From Circumcision to Baptism: A Baptist Covenantal Rejoinder to John Calvin”
It's a free pdf available here
http://www.baptisttheology.org/documents...

T. E. Watson's "Should Babies Be Baptized"

"Believer's Baptism: Sign of the New Covenant in Christ" (already mentioned)

also
Matt Waymeyer's "A Biblical Critique of Infant Baptiss"
http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/59942...

No problem buddy. Not trying to be slippery but instead slow and deliberate (circumspect if you will). There have been many people on both sides that have dealt in a manner that does not reflect patience and long suffering. As I am on neither side but simply a thinking observer, I tend to be careful so that I am not pulled in to the "froth." We can always discuss in emails back and forth - so as to avoid any accidental public comments but trust me when I say I have no problem being direct. In fact I have a problem being too direct and that is why I am seeking at this time in my life to be patient, longsuffering, and carefully wise... Your friend and fellow servant in the faith.

James,
After some thought and an admonishment from my wife I believe my statements above are written to harsh. In an actual vocal conversation I would not have come across so mean. I ask your forgiveness if my tone of voice has offended you.
Jason

Your being slippery James.
1) Do you believe in the imputation of the active obedience of Christ?
2)Do you believe in the invisible church as it has been historically articulated?
3)Do you believe that God made a covenant of works with Adam?

I asked you in comment #20 to be frank with me I fell you have not been. For Dialog to continue you have to explain your views more clearly. I am excited to discusses and debate but not if your going to try to slide in your views through the back door.

I guess I could be viewed a sympathetic but I strive to walk between the ditches so to speak. I see the problems that FV is seeking to correct and I see potential problems from the trajectory some FV views as well. The great thing about the reformed faith is that over time it corrects itself and I am sure in hundred years or more from now both sides will be seeing their issues differently than today. For instance, most reformed groups adhere more to Calvin than Zwingli although today's evangelicals sometimes reflect more Zwinglian views. I guess my point is better said this way - I prefer to see myself as reforming and not reformed, just as I believe the Bride of Christ (church) is reforming to better reflect her savior. Oh and by the way "Future Men" is an excellent book! Boy did we get way off the subject of baptism :)

I have enjoyed many Wilson books and would like to read 'Future Men'. I agree with you about not throwing out Wilson's family life books with the water of the F.V.

I looked at your profile and have come to the conclusion that you are at least sympathetic to the FV if not an adherent, am I correct?

Jason,
I picked up on that - you seemed very teachable. I just wanted to let everyone know that Wilson has some excellent books and resources outside the FV sphere. Prior to the FV controversy his literature was considered by many (e.g. Ligonier, et al.) to be more than just significant but highly practical and and aid for marriage and family that exceeded the standard fare available in the evangelical community. I often strive to not throw the baby out with the bathwater - proverbially of course. So it was just that - thanks for being so kind! Grace and Peace,

James,
Thank you for your comments they are received with a congenial spirit. I would like to discus the FV. Do you think my warning was to strong? You can be frank with me I will not be offended. If so I would like to make apology for it. I chose those words intentionally and had hoped that they would sound gentle but firm. I have come to my conclusions of the FV with much struggle and tears over the orthodoxy of the doctrine and did not comment on it trivially. I do remain teachable and welcome any constructive criticism you may have for me.

Jason,

I hesitate to answer your question directly as it is such a volatile subject (FV). But I just as you, am on a journey learning the "reformed" faith and constantly reforming to God's word. I think it is difficult for all individuals to look at each other and decide what is in the pale of "reformed thought" when we ourselves are dynamically reforming out thoughts and beliefs. For instance you are moving toward padeobaptism which is one of the main tenants of the reformed faith. I too have areas I struggle to evaluate. I say all this because of your admonition with regard to Wilson. I don't agree with everything he says but the man has produced a dozen or so books that are extremely helpful for the family and marriage. Fortunately I can tell by your corespondence that you really care and are striving in the faith. All I am saying is we have to remember many throughout church history have held to beliefs that later were not alway correct. Luther, Calvin, and Zwingli are reformers that we would not agree with their total "systems." I think that we can do the same for some of our more recent theologians as long as they are not heretical. I hope that this is received in the very congenial spirit it is intended. I love discussing these things with you my brothers (and sisters if applicable).

Grace and Peace,

I haven't looked at the Federal Vision, at least yet. Re: baptism I'm now reading Infant Baptism and the Silence of the New Testament. It's very good. I just listened to an MP3 sermon on SermolnAudio.com from Reformed Baptist Jim Savastio against infant baptism. While I greatly respect him , it wasn't him at his best IMHO.

Has anybody studied The Federal Vision? What's your conclusion and why? How serious is it? What should we do about it? Is it with in the bounds of orthodoxy?

Scott- That is a hard position I'll pray that the Lord gives you wisdom.

As aromatics yield their perfume so much the more, the more they are bruised so do the Scriptures give up their hid treasures of meaning in proportion as they are constantly handled
Chrysostom's Homilies

This is one of my favorite quotes from Luther is teaches us what zeal looks for truth looks like. This is a excerpt from his own conversion story.

Though I lived as a monk without reproach, I felt that I was a sinner before God with an extremely disturbed conscience. I could not believe that he was placated by my satisfaction. I did not love, yes, I hated the righteous God who punishes sinners, and secretly, if not blasphemously, certainly murmuring greatly, I was angry with God, and said, "As if, indeed, it is not enough, that miserable sinners, eternally lost through original sin, are crushed by every kind of calamity by the law of the decalogue, without having God add pain to pain by the gospel and also by the gospel threatening us with his righteousness and wrath!" Thus I raged with a fierce and troubled conscience. Nevertheless, I beat importunately upon Paul at that place, most ardently desiring to know what St. Paul wanted.

We must beat the Scriptures for the answers.

Hi Jason - I've listened to many MP3 debates and see the paedobaptist view in light of covenants. I must say I am still studying and may be near where you are. The thing I am wrestling with is the mixed church, saved v unsaved. It explains the warning passages which says a lot. So it is the larger covenantal issues that I find more difficult than baptism per se. I thought the Wilson book was written before he "went south" in his theology? Also I am SBC Pastor which really complicates things practically speaking.

Careful with Wilson especially when it comes to Covenant Theology. There is a strong argument, that I agree with, that he has left orthodoxy.

I am reformed baptist moving toward paedo. I attend a Reformed church now and naturally am being challenged to examine my position. The pastor of our church is coming over next week to explain baptism and he gave us Children of the Promise. I am on the verge of changing but I am finding it to be very hard, seeing that I have defended very vocally credo for 15 years now.

Thanks Norlan, I've viewed that one already and it is excellent, although slightly dated.


Norlan wrote: "Here's a DVD from the paedobaptist position that might be helpful. It tries to give a clear presentation of the paedobaptist position without disparaging other positions. If you like watching video..."

Here's a DVD from the paedobaptist position that might be helpful. It tries to give a clear presentation of the paedobaptist position without disparaging other positions. If you like watching videos on your computer, you can download it for free.

http://thirdmill.org/seminary/catalog/sa...

These aren't books, but the discussion is a great one:
Credobaptism with Tom Schreiner: http://www.petrik.com/GRC/02%2020081121_...
Paedobaptism with David Van Drunen: http://www.petrik.com/GRC/03%2020081121_...
Q&A: http://www.petrik.com/GRC/04%2020081121_...

I've got to confess, as someone who was raised Baptist in rural Montana/Wyoming (and with no Presbyterian church in the area), the first time I heard that people baptized infants it was pretty traumatic- I couldn't figure out how you keep the baby from drowning! :)

Thanks Bob, I'm aware. I meant the hermeneutic re: believers' baptism v infant baptism. Vis a vis OT v NT.

Baptists today tend to be dispensational, rather than covenantal.

I'll have to get the one from Doug Wilson. I've also listened to the many MP3 debates on the web on the subject. I'm now listening to Bill Shishko's series of 23 MP3s on the topic from a paedo position. Anyone know what the differences are in hermaneutic?

Wow. I hadn't heard that about Douglas Wilson. Very interesting.... I'm still hanging on to the credo-position.

Wilson is a great author and I highly recommend "To a Thousand Generations." I just figured "Children of the Promise" was a little more introductory. It depends on your intended audience.

To A Thousand Generations by Douglas Wilson. Don't neglect this small book. Wilson began credo and ended up to his great surprise paedo. -Phil

Thanks Bob ! There are many more good books out there but I remember this one being one of the most easy on the senses and conscience almost a decade ago...

Good tip, James. As for someone moving to paedobaptism, a friend of mine had some blog posts on the topic with a lot of comments (pages worth) first for credobaptism, then for paedobaptism defending his newfound position. Quite the interesting read which takes you through most of the arguments. You can see his posts on baptism here.

"Children of the Promise: The Biblical Case for Infant Baptism" is an excellent book for your purpose because it is written by a man as he studies this issue and moves toward paedobaptism. It is conversational in its approach which is helpful when keeping the readers attention. Here is the link for the book here in good reads...

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/57151...

This book: Believer's Baptism: Sign of the New Covenant in Christ (B&H) edited by Shaun Wright and Tom Schreiner

And this one: Christian Baptism by John Murray

First one is from a Baptist perspective that yet understands and appreciates some of the covenantal theology that supports paedobaptism. The second one is supposed to be a classic paedobaptism argument. I haven't fully read either, but both have been recommended to me.

Hello -

Does anyone have any recommendations on the best books to study the issue of paedobaptism vs believer's baptism?

Thanks,
Scott
www.baptistandreformed.org