Starling & Michelle,

The books I like best are character driven and it probably comes from science fiction. Some fantasy is one battle to the next, some fantasy is about a quest, some fantasy is about magic.

In The Sharing Knife it's two individuals going on a quest, uniting their disparate societies, falling in love, and oh yeah, repairing the world.

One would hope that all fantasy books were character driven, at least in part.

I'm also beginning to wonder if having multiple names for the books we are reading is a good thing or a bad thing.

Julia,
I don't know that trilogy. I'll look it up. Thanks. Character-driven fantasy? Is there a definition to that category that distinctly sets it apart from other categories?

Michelle,

I reread your description of your book and it sounds somewhat like Lois McMaster Bujold's Sharing Knife trilogy. Now hers is not contemporary in setting, though it is loosely the Ohio River valley, but LMB is all about blurring labels and getting her loyal fans to read anything she writes.

I would call this series of Bujold's character- driven fantasy.

Starling, At least in a good number of book stores the romance and the fantasy/sci-fi aisles are near each other. So I can wander back and forth between them without much hassle.

Yep, that's mine Julia. I'm trying to get help figuring out what to call it so I can represent it correctly to folks. A lot of folks in this group wander back and forth between the categories, but there are some tried and true Paranormal Romance fans who get very upset without their HEA's. JR Ward has a lot of upset fans who've been confused by what she's writing. Luckily, I love it all, so I'm all set.

Julia, yes, but labels are necessary in physical bookstores or you can't find the books you want to read.

Responding to some posts:

Shomeret, A Brother's Price isn't dystopian. It's a society that works pretty well, if very differently from ours. If anything, maybe it's an experimental Romance novel with a male in the "has to be saved" position.

Michelle, the book you describe sound interesting. Is it one you wrote?

Starling, lables are limiting, at least when they keep us from reading book we'd like.

Michelle, and that is the problem. Paranormal books are not sticking to their genres but popping up all over the place.

A lot of the early "urban fantasy" I read was written by science fiction authors and was really "science fantasy." A lot of it does not follow the conventions of what we are calling urban fantasy now, although some of it does.

I truly think that the two names we are giving most of this stuff we are reading is limiting.

Michelle wrote: "I need your help. So what would you call a story that's told in a first person modern day POV, set on Earth in current time, but with most of the action taking place in a separate fantasy realm fol..."

I believe that if the primary place where she spends time is in the alternate world/fantasy world and there is a strong love interest it may count as paranormal romance.

If the love interest is less of a developing plot in the book, it may still count as fantasy.

Sounds interesting. :o)

I need your help. So what would you call a story that's told in a first person modern day POV, set on Earth in current time, but with most of the action taking place in a separate fantasy realm folded away from the normal cities but part of our world? There are a few forays back to regular earth, not necessarily to cities, but that happens as well. It has strong romantic elements, a happily ever after for now between hero and heroine, yet with more rocky roads between them to come, and a continuing storyline from the same POV character that includes bigger plot issues like saving the world which occur over the entire series arc. I'd say the heroine spends an equal amount of time focusing on her developing love interest as on the bigger political, intrigue mystery plot and the worldbuilding. Fifty-fifty.

What do you call this? Contemporary fantasy?

Julia wrote: "Mannerpunk is to fantasy as steampunk is to science fiction, if that helps. New Amsterdam has a Victorian flavor, though she is not the English monarch at the time of the novel. Also, the first sho..."

I haven't read any Wen Spencer, but the description of A Brother's Price sounds like science fiction. There's a type of science fiction called dystopian. Dystopia is the opposite of utopia. Matriarchal dystopias are fairly common, and this sounds like one of them.

Julia wrote: "Mannerpunk is to fantasy as steampunk is to science fiction, if that helps."

Scifi? One of my favorite Vampire movies is a Steampunk called 'The Perfect Creature' so there must be some crossover. I do get the concept.

Mannerpunk is to fantasy as steampunk is to science fiction, if that helps. New Amsterdam has a Victorian flavor, though she is not the English monarch at the time of the novel. Also, the first short story, for it is a novel made up of short stories, is set on a zeppelin. The wampyr Sebastien is a sort of a Poirot- type character. Tesla is a character in the last story...

Shomeret calls this alternate history fantasy and perhaps that's a more apt description than mannerpunk.
Shomeret, have you read A Brother's Price by Wen Spencer? I think that is also an alternate history fantasy?

Julia wrote: "One of the books mentioned most often as mannerpunk is Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner.Swordspoint
It's very, very good."

Is Mannerpunk the same or similar to Steampunk? I've added several movies to my favorite list that are reviewed as Steampunk as they have a Victorian look to them and are dark and moody with advanced technology run by steam.

I loved Swordspoint too but not so much Book 2.

Julia wrote: "As I remember it, doesn't Mulengro, at least in part, take place in Hull, on the wrong side of the river from Ottawa?
(Hull is in Quebec. Where Ottawa is the capital ciry in Ontario.)
[bookcover:..."

Yes, the plot is now shifting away from Ottowa. This is not a re-read for me. I'm reading it for the first time. I've had Mulengro on my PBS wish list for quite a while. It finally came.

As I remember it, doesn't Mulengro, at least in part, take place in Hull, on the wrong side of the river from Ottawa?
(Hull is in Quebec. Where Ottawa is the capital ciry in Ontario.)

I liked that the Mounties were not all good guys, something at least when I read it, while "Due South" was on tv, that I had not considered. And that the Mounties are called Horsemen.

What makes Mulengro urban fantasy? It takes place in Ottowa in the present at the time it was written, and there's no reason to assume that it couldn't take place now. There's magic, which is what makes it fantasy, but no other difference from our world.

I'm loving Mulengro, by the way. The gypsy cultural content and gypsy magic are wonderful. I know that some people have been bothered by the violence and consider it too dark. But I guess it's on the level of your average serial killer mystery. I've read much darker and more violent books that have seriously disturbed me. So far this one hasn't.

One of the books mentioned most often as mannerpunk is Swordspoint by Ellen Kushner.Swordspoint
It's very, very good. There's no magic in that book though there is some generations later in the books that follow.

I also have King Hereafter by Dunnet on my huuuge TBR pile, Starling.

Shomeret, Mulengro isn't one of my favorites of de Lint's, but I liked it plenty. Maybe it's time for a reread...

Obviously its always an alternative universe to some degree. But in most UF that degree is fairly small. Or if it is large it retains the feel to it that this is today's world not yesterdays, and not the far future.

Shomeret I'll agree to the alternate universe for this particular author because the differences are so great, but any urban fantasy has to be an alternate universe because.

The books by Ilona Andrews are certainly in an alternate universe too, because there was an event that not only let the supes out, but also broke technology. There are buildings failing and falling down in her world. But her books are classified as urban fantasy.

I haven't read Mulengro. What makes is urban fantasy and not an alternate universe fantasy?

Just put THE SWORD OF THE LADY, by Stirling down. That is an alternate universe that might be heading down a fantasy road, or maybe not. It is possible the old gods are real in that universe.

Just picked up KING FOREVER by Dorothy Dunnett. Basically a historical novel, but in that world Macbeth and Thorfinn are the same person which they almost certainly were not in our world. Just a historical novel? Or an alternate universe historical novel?

I can't find the books I want to read in the bookstores now because the bookstores don't know where to shelve them.

Starling wrote: "Hum... It occurred to me that you were seeing this as a historical era and not contemporary. I read historical mysteries and I'll admit that in that genre I'd consider 1899-1902 as historical as we..."

Elizabeth Bear's New Amsterdam is also alternate universe. Urban Fantasy is supposed to be in our universe. Even if a fantasy is contemporary novel taking place now, but it's set in a universe in which the United States is ruled by a King, it's not urban fantasy. It's alternate universe fantasy. Alternate universe is its own sub-genre. There are science fiction alternate universe books and fantasy alternate universe books.

Currently reading: Mulengro by Charles De Lint (urban fantasy)

Oh, still googling. I found a list on Amazon kabked Fabtast-of-Manners: a Primer that tickled me. It included THE GAME OF KINGS by Dorothy Dunnett and THE LAST OF THE WINE by Mary Renault, both favorites of mine that I haven't read in decades. I used to read both of those authors and reread them.

The funny thing is that the book I just pulled out of the TBR pile is KING HERAFTER by Dorothy Dunnett, which is the strangest take on Macbeth that I've ever come across, and an old favorite.

Hum... It occurred to me that you were seeing this as a historical era and not contemporary. I read historical mysteries and I'll admit that in that genre I'd consider 1899-1902 as historical as well. A bit harder for me since one of my parents had already been born by 1899. <grin> But you do have a point.

The problem is that most fantasy is set hundreds of years earlier. So this is a sort of hybrid.

As for 1938, that was the year my husband was born and I was born 3 years later. I guess that keeps it from being historical for me. It isn't history if you lived through it.

I gather that in the universe of this author's books the Nazis entered into existence and came into power a lot earlier than they did in our universe. I'm not sure what the Nazis were doing in our universe in 1928, but they did not come into power until 1933 and only in Germany.

As for "Fantasy of manners," this is the first time I've seen the term so I know nothing about it and have no opinion. What other books would you put in that genre? Meanwhile I'm going to do some googling.

OK, I ended up at the same Wikipedia page you quoted from. They included Kage Baker, who I have read, as someone who writes Fantasy of Manners. Basically I see her books as pretty typical science fiction time travel books with a save the universe Arc and sub-plot. I like her books, by the way.

And Barbara Hambly. ???!??? Although I have to admit that I don't know what she has been writing lately.

Because it's setting isn't the modern world, but 1899-1902. Only Paris has electricity. New Amsterdam, where the primary stories take place, is candlelit. There are also kerosene lamps. New Amsterdam is controlled by the English king. But there is a film industry in Atlanta. The Haudosaunee (Iroquois) control most of the interior of the continent. Detective Crown Investigator Abigail Irene solves crime by using magic, with the help of her wampyr friend Sebastien. The next book is set in London 1938, that gave up to the Nazis about 10 years previous.

Urban fantasy is a world like ours, where those who can see it, may see magic.

This is a description of fantasy of manners:
"Fantasy of manners" is fantasy literature that owes as much or more to the comedy of manners as it does to the traditional heroic fantasy of J. R. R. Tolkien and other authors of high fantasy. Author Teresa Edgerton has stated [2:] that this is not what Keller originally meant by the term, but "the term has since taken on a life of its own". Fantasy of manners generally take place in an urban setting and within the confines of a fairly elaborate, and almost always hierarchical, social structure. The protagonists are not pitted against fierce monsters or marauding armies, but against their neighbors and peers; the action takes place within a society, rather than being directed against an external foe; duels may be fought, but the chief weapons are wit and intrigue.

I just checked into Elizabeth Bear's series on Amazon. Sounds pretty good to me. I don't know if this book is part of that same series or something else, but the series is urban fantasy and this sounds like it is too.

Why would you think it wasn't?

I'm currently reading Elizabeth Bear's New Amsterdam. It's not urban fantasy. It's set in an alternate history turn of the 20th century New York that is still under control of the English king, with a wampyr emigrating to the New World via zeppelin, who does detecting to stave off the boredom. In New Amsterdam he meets the Detective Crown Investigator Abigail Irene, herself a powerful magic user, and a not young woman who is infamous for inappropriate liasons.
I'd call it manner punk, though some call it steampunk, but magic plays too large a role for that, IMO.

World War Z by Max Brooks *isn't* urban fantasy.Not sure what it is, beyond one of the best books I read last year.
New Amsterdam
World War Z An Oral History of the Zombie War

Actually all contemporary fantasy used to be considered urban fantasy. Urban fantasy started out as a sub-set of science fiction fantasy. If it didn't have a hard scientific edge and if it was either now or near future it was urban fantasy.

If your book is set in the now, or near future, and you've got magical elements you are writing urban fantasy.

Of course I'm currently reading DUMA BAY by Stephen King and I think that is urban fantasy too.

Could anyone please give me some examples of contemporary fantasy that would NOT be considered urban fantasy?

My only prior exposure to the genre is through Neil Gaiman (Neverwhere) and some young adult books (Tithe, etc.) I love superimposing magical elements on the familiar but I'm sure if what I've written qualifies as urban fantasy.

Came across this list and thought it pretty funny.
SOURCE: "Love, Romance and Passion because books don't fall asleep afterwards."
http://www.loveromancepassion.com/6-reas...

6 Reasons Why the Paranormal Character is Always Male

1. We like our heroes mysterious. What is more mysterious than a mythological creature, be he vampire or lycanthrope or other?
2. Strong powerful hero + average heroine = swoon. When an extraordinary specimen of the male gender sits up and takes notice of a rather ordinary female it is easier to place ourselves in the heroine’s shoes. That’s not because we think of ourselves as unworthy, this formula just makes it more accessible for readers. This scenario also tends to fill the tenderness and protectiveness side of the fantasy.
3. Strong powerful hero + kickass heroine = hell yeah. When number two’s formula just doesn’t cut it there are the novels about strong heroes and stronger heroines. In this scenario the reader and heroine tend to dominate over the situation. The hero must work around the heroine to get in her good graces and who hasn’t imagine upon at least one occasion a strong sexy male groveling at your feet?
4. Angel, Spike, Jean-Claude, Asher, Edward Cullen, Jasper Cullen, Eric Northman, and Bill Compton. Do I really need to go on with this point? I think this pretty much brings it home. Otherworldly men are downright sexy! Especially vampires!
5. The desires of the paranormal fit better on a hero. The act of drinking blood is considered highly sexual in vampire romances. It’s become part of the erotic fantasy. Sometimes the heroine likes to pretend to be helpless and the hero’s act of feeding gives her a thrilling rush. Besides, I think I pretty much covered how icky it can be to read a heroine drinking blood.
6. Redemption always looks better on a man. Many paranormal stories involve the preternatural lead repenting his past acts dictated by his nature, circumstances, and misinformed beliefs due to change. This makes him now a brooding hero and occasionally puts the heroine in the middle of the path toward his salvation or as his savior.

It was Esther Friesner that I was thinking about. Looked her up on Amazon and she is writing a lot, I mean a LOT of YA and children's books.

And you are right about Tanya Huff. But not the vampire series so much as the one about the Canadian Guardians with the talking cats. Loved those cats!

Tanya Huff writes funny urban fantasy in both her Blood and Smoke series with Henry Fitzroy, Vickie Nelson and Tony.

Her most recent book The Enchantment Emporium is also urban fantasy and funny. (But no Henry.)

Esther Friesner is another writer who is almost always funny. The most recent I read by her was Temping Fates, but she's got at least two newer ones.

Those are the funny ones that come immediately to mind. Any hints, Starling?

Julia

Urban Fantasy has been a named sub-genre of science fiction for quite a while, but I think that people might be surprised about what books were included. There was a woman who wrote funny urban fantasy. Wish I could remember her name because I loved what she wrote.

You know what's interesting is I think Stephen King's The Talisman is really Urban Fantasy, but he typically gets classified as horror or sci fi. Of course Urban Fantasy wasn't a named genre when that book came out...

so i agree completly i love reading both paranormal romance and urban fantasy because for a little while i just leave earth and all stress behind and live in an exciting new world full of love and adventure. whats funny is when im in that world i loose complete contact with the rest of the world, for example my mom could call dinner ten times and i wont hear her.

pianogal wrote: "I know we pretty much covered this topic, but I found a great quote from Kim Harrison that I thought gave a good definition of the difference:

"...urban fantasy's goal of finding the reason behi..."

Yep, That is a really good quote which sums up the definitions of both. Thanks!

pianogal wrote: "I know we pretty much covered this topic, but I found a great quote from Kim Harrison that I thought gave a good definition of the difference:

"...urban fantasy's goal of finding the reason behi..."

That's a great quote!

I know we pretty much covered this topic, but I found a great quote from Kim Harrison that I thought gave a good definition of the difference:

"...urban fantasy's goal of finding the reason behind the attraction and paranormal romance's open and honest explorations of love and lust..."

Ebby wrote: "Sometimes it's surprising what section you will find a book in. Rachel Vincent's series Stray, Rouge, and Pride are under romance. Yes, there is an underlying romance story, but most of it revolves..."

I think Vincent is marketed under Romance because Harlequin puts out the books. But I agree, it can be hard to find UF books anymore because they're spread between Sci-Fi/Fantasy, Romance, and Mystery. I just wish the book stores would have a "Books Jen Would Like" section. It would make shopping so much easier!!! :)

Speaking of world building, that's one of the main reasons I've been reading urban fantasy much, much more than traditional fantasy lately. I've just had a harder time wrapping my mind around a whole new culture, language and map (or several) than I used to. Must be getting old (almost 39!) because I used to love that stuff. But now I really appreciate my magic and mayhem set in this world or a close approximation. I still prefer UF to Paranormal Romance about 3/1 because of the generally greater availability of more complex characters and stories, and on-going series. I enjoy PR books with fun and well-written characters, especially where the same "world" has multiple books and characters make appearances in the other books (such as author Lynsay Sands' books). But it's not the same as a multi-layered story told over time such as the Sookie Stackhouse books by Harris, the Cassie Palmer books, or the Mercy books (someone remind me, I can't look it up without losing what I've written so far because I'm on my phone, sorry!). On the other hand, sometimes the mayhem gets to be too much and not so many UF books are funny, and many PR books are. Long answer, sorry.

I have this problem all the time. Some paranormal romance books I have no question about either because the plot is just a thinly disguised way to push the couple together or the world-building leaves a lot to be desired. Others I'm not so sure about, like the book I just read by Sharon Ashwood called Ravenous. It's called paranormal romance, but it reads more like the Night Huntress series or the Rachel Morgan series.

Sometimes it's surprising what section you will find a book in. Rachel Vincent's series Stray, Rouge, and Pride are under romance. Yes, there is an underlying romance story, but most of it revolves around werecats... and I don't like heading to the romance section to find my lastest book I want to read.

Jennifer, I agree with you. Gabaldon doesn't belong in the romance section.

Romance novels still require one m/f couple to end up together by the end of the book. Anything that stretches into a series, even if there is only one couple being focused on, is no longer strictly romance.

I tend to prefer non-romance books with a large romantic element.

Okay, I have to confess: I've been a book snob when it comes to Romance. I have always turned my nose up at the Romance genre as being too fluffy, not enough substance, and therefore it must not be too hard to write (NOTE: I am not a writer). When I first read Diana Gabaldon (and loved it), I was working at a Waldenbooks and INSISTED we move her books from Romance to Fiction so I didn't have to admit I was reading a "romance" book. So, when I started reading Paranormal and ended up having to search out some great Paranormal books in the Romance section of the bookstore, my husband was delighted at the chance to tease me. He does it every time. :)

There are definitely spectrums along which a book can fall--from a lot of romance to a little romance, from a lot of paranormal to just a little. I've found that the paranormal books with a very traditional romance formula --courtship, angst, -- don't have enough meat for me. I read the first two Dark Hunter books on the recommendations of two good friends, and just couldn't get into them. Though I LOVED the paranormal world that was built, the focus was much more on the courtship and romantic angst, and that didn't cut it for me. Personally, I think it's the mystery or adventure formulas that pull me in more. Which is interesting as I don't read straight mysteries.

In any case, everyone likes something different, so thank goodness there are lots of different authors with lots of different styles. My only wish is that publishers made it easier to distinguish between "romance" books like Frost, Wilks, and Gabaldon and "romance" books like Kenyon, Black (Watcher Series) and Kenner (Aphrodite series). It would make it easier for me to find books I like. :)

I loved Lily too. I liked Roe, but the other characters in the books bothered me. Even her hubby for awhile there. That series was kind of all over the place, but I usually picked up the next book as soon as I finished the one I was on. It was so addicting! I read all 5 Lily Bard books in a row too. I like her writing so to me all of her books are worth reading. She has to stand alone books as well that are just as good as any of her other stuff. She really is more a mystery writer, but with her paranormal aspects in some of her series she has crossed over into all the genres.

I think I just liked the main characters better. Harper Connely is defiantely darker than Roe or Lily attitude and story wise.

Roe is so quirky and fun. And Lily, while a darker history, was just such a great character.

All were very good- I devoured all 3 series. But At the end, I wanted more Roe or Lily, but was satisfied with just hte 3 of Harper.

Jessica - I haven't read the Aurora Teagraden or Lily Bard series yet. They didn't seem that interesting to me. But maybe I'll give them a try.

I adore the Harper Connelly books. They're definitely UF-ish, but definitely more mystery-ish, she get's her 'powers' because she was struck by lightening and there are at least two other people in the series with 'power' of some sort. She's basically a corpse barometer though.

You like the Aurora Teagarden & Lily Bard series more? It must be the descriptions I've seen of them so far but they don't seem like they would be as good to me ...

The Harper Connely books are mystery. Maybe paranormal mystery if you want to get more specific. They are rather good, but I liked Aurora Teagarden & Lily Bard more than Harper.

I would probably consider it UF since romance isn't the main theme. Suzann?

Charlaine Harris who writes the Sookie books also writes another series with the main character, Harper Connoley, who has the ability to find corpses and determine how they have died. pretty interesting. I'm not sure what genre that would be considered?