Shannon, if you would please edit your comment to note that the linked Amazon review reveals huge spoilers, it would be helpful. I'm half way through the book and enjoying it, but don't know if I'll continue now that I've read that Amazon review, not because I necessarily agree with the opinions but because all of the secrets are given away, spoiled. A warning from the Amazon poster would be best, but as you supplied the link, perhaps you could mention it as well. Thanks in advance.

I know Stephanie as I've seen people fabricating lies in stir up trouble in groups online over the years. But the article I read cited alot of different sources so it's more than just one person's opinion. Granted, she could be innocent. But after what I read, if she's guilty of any of it, I don't want to support her as an author. But that's my opinion. Obviously others (oblivious to all this or not) have bought and read her books and like them. It's just after what I discovered, I choose not to.

i think this whole Cassandra Claire thing is nuts.. there is no proof that i could find that she took money. her fans sent her gifts big deal. everyone gets gifts... and her having a charity and not giving money to them. how do we know for sure that she never gave it to them.. i am not defending her i am just saying. how do we know this isn't made bigger then it is... this could of been blown out of proportion.. i know people love a good drama.. and this sounds like one.. humans love to bad mouth each other and put each other down... there is more negative reviews then positive in this world... i am not trying to change anyone's opinion... just putting it out there that.. how do u know that what ur reading on the net is the whole truth.. people make thing up all the time.. and on the internet it makes it easier to do so...

Well we'll have to agree to disagree because the article I read, which was incredibly long, listed all their source material which was quite extensive. They had so much documentation behind it that I believe it. Where there's enough smoke, surely at least some sparks are accurate. The reason, I believe, she wasn't sued for plagarism is the original author of the work may not have been notified and s/he's the only one who can sue. The website in question noticed enough of a problem, was contacted about it, their board looked into it and enough questions were raised to delete all her material. They did say that the sites legal department was not notified, which may have something to do with her not being sued. But there is more than enough evidence for me to give this particular author a very wide berth. I'll spend my time (and money) reading something else. However, you're entitled your opinion and it doesn't have to agree with mine.

I certainly understand your point about the higher you get the more people want to tear you down. I saw just the other day that Stephenie Meyer is being sued for plagiarism for BREAKING DAWN. And I agree that if you were serious about your plagiarism charges that you would definitely pursue them into court. I know if it were me and I seriously believed that my material had been ripped off I'd be in court about it.

I understand Briansgirl, but I read Clare's fanfic as well as the books that many accused her of copying with my own eyes and saw no evidence that she lifted sentences much less paragraphs. Just because they closed her fanfic for refusing to answer questions doesn't make her guilty. Perhaps she was just over it, or personally afronted and didn't feel fanfic was worth fighting over. Charges were never pressed, and I would think if she were guilty of plagarism, there would have been charges pressed.

Clare got her book deal because of the success of her fanfic. When you get that high on the pole, everyone wants to tear you down.

Unless I see the actual bits of her fanfic that were lifted from other sources with citation of the origianl source, I'm not going to buy into the accusation.

Heather, it's not that she used the characters someone else created. That's the definition of fanfic. She flat out stole complete paragraphs, word for word, without giving credit to the original author. That's plagarism. And although she wasn't prosecuted for it (I've not heard of it happening with fanfic), the team that oversees fanfic.com where it was posted withdrew all of her work when she failed to answer questions about the plagarism allegations, so it was removed. To me there is overwhelming evidence against her enough that I won't support the author.

I did, thank you for the welcome. I love this group! I'm actually up to date with your readings, lol.

WELCOME to the group Heather! I see you found your way over here :)

On the allegations: Clare was never prosecuted for plagerism. Everyone calls foul these days, but point me to an idea, theme, etc. that is 100% original. If someone writes about vamps, 100 people are going to yell plagerism because they too wrote about vamps. Innocent until proven guilty in my mind.

And isn't fanfiction supposed to rip off the author by writing alternate endings, etc? As long as the writer of the fanfic says, these aren't my characters, I don't see how they can get in trouble.

I've read every selection in this thread and they are all wonderful books!

I too was detered from reading COB due to the reviews on Amazon, but I read the first chapter online, and it kinda piqued my interest so I got the book and loved it. The series is now one of my all time favorites.

Well, I cant unread the book. I read it a couple years ago, and have always intended to someday read the rest of the series. Given all this stuff, it wont happen.

I created the poll & actually went for more blunt that I was planning on. Figured we'd get the info we're all curious about that way.

Technically it did win the poll so I'm hesitant to remove it from our 9/1 discussions. Some people are still planning on reading it & have bought the books in anticipation.

http://www.goodreads.com/poll/show/20016...

Kathryn wrote: "I'm curious, who plans to read the book now and who does not? Should we make a poll? :), just out of curiosity, no judgements :)"

Steph & I were talking about the wording of just such a poll this morning. It's a touchy subject. I'll work on it right now & post a link.

Yep I still have the receipt.... so I'll have to try to get it returned.....

Kathryn wrote: "Briansgirl, I think that nicely sums up the difference, and Stephanie, I think you were right in asking and I am seeing a difference between both authors.

I'm curious, who plans to read the book..."

Thanks Kathryn.

The difference Stephanie if between outright stealing an authors words uncredited, and using them for an inspiration to write your own. Fanfic by very definition can never be sold because the stories are written inside whatever the original creation is. There are Star Trek fanfics for example that use the Starship Enterprise and with recognizable crew members (all from the original source) but the story in which they find themselves is all new (the creation of the fanfic author). Even though the source material is cited (ie whoever owns Star Trek), full scenes and dialogs aren't copied. Just the characters. Now, many people write Star Trek novels. The difference between fanfic and an authorized novel in that instance is getting permission to publish it. I don't read fanfic anymore (other than the JP novels). I didn't realize they had so many rules either, although alot of that is up to the websites that offer it. I think the difference here boils down to are they stealing. If you borrow an idea or concept, and credit where it came from then you're alright, provided its free fanfic so you aren't trying to make money without authorized permission. If you outright copy passages word for word without giving source credit, that's stealing.

Any chance on returning it Susan? Still have the receipt? I could read the library's copy for free but I won't now. Curious too to see how many will read it now.

Well I just got it yesterday BEFORE I read all this info, so now I am totally torn on what to do.....

I have the book at home now and am debating on whether I want to read it. I didn't buy it so I don't have to worry about "giving" her money but still. hmmm...

Briansgirl, I think that nicely sums up the difference, and Stephanie, I think you were right in asking and I am seeing a difference between both authors.

I'm curious, who plans to read the book now and who does not? Should we make a poll? :), just out of curiosity, no judgements :)

I have talked to Geo, the James Potter fanfic author. What he's done is take one minor character from the epilogue of book 7 and created a story around him. He does use Rowlings wizarding world, Hogwarts, and several recognizable characters. Because of that, he'll never be able to publish the stories due to Rowlings copyrights and he's fine with that. He's also sent a preview copy of each book to Rowlings people and been legally told that as long as he doesn't make any money off the stories and they are only freely distributed, he can publish them online. He does not copy directly from the original works by Rowling. He also gives her full credit. This is directly from his book:

James Potter and the Hall of Elders Crossing (the "Work") is Harry Potter series ("Series") fan fiction and was not created by Series author J.K. Rowling nor under her auspices. To the extent that trademarks of the Series (the "Proprietary Rights") are used in the Work, such use is incidental and not for purposes of source indication. Any such trademarks are and remain property of Ms. Rowling and her assigns. The author hereby disclaims any interest in said Proprietary Rights. The Work is © 2007 G. Norman Lippert.

On the Lippert's website, he also writes: I cannot sell or publish James Potter books, of course. Nor have I chosen to host any annoying advertisements on this site, since I am doing this solely for the love of the story. In short, I make no money from this whatsoever. Some readers, however, have asked to support future James Potter stories in a more direct manner. If you so desire, you might indulge yourself in some of my other evocative books and trifles, all of which will contribute to future free James Potter stories. Simply return to the main page and click either of the "Support the Ongoing JP Story" options, and thank you ever so much in advance.

Now, you may ask what the options are. They are simply buying his other original works (books) that he legally can publish, or a few tshirts with original artwork of his own from his books, that do not trade on any of JKR's copyrights. He has said if Rowling had requested he pull any of his stories he would, as he does not want to offend her. Also, his links to where to buy his other books is quite small and at the very bottom of the page.

I find what he's doing completely different than what Clare/Claire did. The strongest plagarism arguements against Clare/Claire was that she copied full paragraphs of someone else's writing, uncredited. This is from the fanhistory.com's article on her:

In mid-June 2001, Avocado e-mailed Cairnsy, an administrator at FanFiction.Net, with evidence that Cassandra Claire had inserted, without citation, a significant portion of fantasy writer Pamela Dean's work into the ninth chapter of Draco Sinister, the second installment of The Draco Trilogy. [7:] The complaint was not an official plagiarism complaint, but rather a question if it was and what she should do about it.

Cairnsy recognized that inserting this much uncredited text with only a vague and inaccurate disclaimer ("Credit for the inspiration for this conception of the wizarding afterlife goes to a book called The Secret Country, alas, I no longer recall who wrote it") was not the same thing as using well-known quotes from television series. Cairnsy told the reader that this would be taken care of. (Note, an official report was never filed.)

It's not the use of the world/characters that has caused all the fuss. Clare/Claire used an entire scene from an out-of-print fantasy novel, only changing the names. She also paraphrased what other's had already written without giving credit. Both are considered plagiarism.

Fanfic uses the established world, but the stories & writting should be unique.

If the author of the James Potter series copied and pasted sentences/paragraphs/scenes from any other book he'd be crossing the line from Fanfic to plagiarism as well.

what is the difference on James potter sereis and what Clare/Claire has done.. i am not defending her at all. i am just wondering... how do we not know if this is made up the whole plagiarism . that it ever happened... and if it did how did she get books published?? who would publish her once fans found out about this.. anyone can make up anything on the internet....

the James potter series is based on J K Rowling books.. James potter author is using her world for his series he may not be making money on it. but he is using it.. isn't that stealing her ideas and world... just a thought.. and who is to say he has never make money off it..

naaa this is good find Brian'sgirl. this is very interesting..

I normally don't read fanfic because I've run into slash before. If I'd have known what it was, I wouldn't have read it. Not everyone is up front in labeling it. The only fanfic I've read recently is a bit different. That's the James Potter books that were written as a continuation after the original series starting when Harry's son starts Hogwarts. They are two 400 page novels given away as free ebooks and you can even get free copies here on Goodreads. It's still fanfic, but rather different than the lil short stories most fanfic authors write.

It does bug me that so much has happened with Clare/Claire and absolutely nowhere does she admit to it, say she's sorry, even sorry for any confusion my stories have caused. Nothing. Yet there is a perponderance of evidence that leads you to believe she's guilty of at least some of it. There is more than enough there for me to believe, so that's why I won't read the book. Still surprised by changing one letter in her pen name she's managed to erase her past, or so it seems. Sorry if I opened a hornets nest in here. lol I was just posting what I'd found, and in this particular case, it wasn't flattering.

So I remembered that you can use Google to search a site.

I typed in:

site:goodreads.com "Cassandra Claire"

Quite a few hits but most of it points to reviews and quotes. Here's a few things I did turn up:

Similar to our thread:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/47616-does-author-s-background-cause-you-to-not-read-this

Another similar thread:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/47365-author-s-background.Author_s_Background

More on Fanfic:
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/131001-fanfic-anyone


Not much really though.

It works if you type out the html code to add the book or author as well. I was hoping it wouldn't since we have several lists that link to LOTS of books. Alas, our discussions are showing up on each of the books in our New Releases List & our Completed Series list despite me typing them all out.

Shanon wrote: "But no way to search all the threads on GoodReads for more info. So unless they link it to the author or a book it's really hard to find info. "

That definitely seems like a flaw in the system. Especially since I think it only includes topics when the poster uses the add book/author widget. Otherwise I don't think it searches for anything else. I could be wrong though, I'm not sure.

Here's a list of topics where people have linked to Cassandra Clare. It also doesn't take into account her 2 names though. http://www.goodreads.com/author/topics/1...


But no way to search all the threads on GoodReads for more info. So unless they link it to the author or a book it's really hard to find info.

Shanon wrote: "Shannon wrote: "you guys all seem to treat Amazon reviews and discussions as anathema. ; ) "

HA! I had to pull my dictionary out for Anathema!"

Lol. I made you work for that one!

Also, I just realized you can't search all groups to try to find a topic, you have to go around searching group by group. That's kind of lame. So there could be a topic about Cassandra Claire somewhere ... there's just no way to find it. Plus, the fact that she's not listed on here at all because of the spelling difference, you can't even look to see what topics she's being discussed in.

Shannon wrote: "you guys all seem to treat Amazon reviews and discussions as anathema. ; ) "

HA! I had to pull my dictionary out for Anathema!

OMG I CANNOT Believe this I really liked well Loved this series. I think I'm goin to throw up!!! I have bragged to all my friends about how wonderful this series was,I AM P***ed off now.It figures tho I too do not support people who PLAGIARIZE, What A Waste. I have these books all three of them I still love them and I will keep them but I will not buy another nor brag again....

Sorry, it was the goodreads Librarians group that had the post. Here's the link.

Kathryn wrote: "Ha, I'd never heard of Slash Fiction. Funny:) I just don't want to read any fiction involving characters I like, no matter what they're doing :), unless originating or approved by the author. "

Yeah, if it's not canon, I don't want to read it. The whole fan-fiction and slash communities kind of creep me out anyway.

Shanon wrote: "I find it odd that there's not ANY discussions about this here on GoodReads - well at least none that are linked with her name. "

I actually did find something over in the goodreads Feedback group. Apparently someone had added her fanfiction as actual books on here and people proceeded to through a fit wanting them deleted. Which makes obvious sense. I haven't really searched to see if there's anything else.

There are posts over on Amazon that you can try to weed through that touch on the plagiarism, but you guys all seem to treat Amazon reviews and discussions as anathema. ; )

Ha, I'd never heard of Slash Fiction. Funny:) I just don't want to read any fiction involving characters I like, no matter what they're doing :), unless originating or approved by the author.

I beleive in 2nd chances, Lord knows I've gotten my fair share, so I'm trying to give her the benefit of the doubt. The thing that is bothering me the most is no apology for the obvious plagiarism. I can't find anything from her "camp" (though admitting it & apologizing would probably lead to some legal trouble). Still, taking responsiblity is key to me.

I find it odd that there's not ANY discussions about this here on GoodReads - well at least none that are linked with her name.

I liked the idea of Fanfic a little until I learned about Slash Fiction. Since then I've been too afraid I'd end up in territories I'd rather not see some of my favorite characters. I would probably enjoy some fanfic of series (tv or books) that have been completed or cancelled. Dark Angel was one of my favorite shows back in the day before it was rudely cancelled - I've heard there's some good Fanfic set in that world that tries to tie up all the loose ends but haven't hunted any down yet.

Shanon wrote: "The same article (link at the bottom of my post) goes on to say that she used descriptions from other books & works of fiction providing a couple of examples. While dicey - it falls in the same category as the TV conversations doesn't it? (It should be cited at the very least IMO - game or not.)..."

Such behavior is paraphrasing and is considered plagiarism, just as lifting straight direct quotes would be. In my opinion, paraphrasing is worse because it's stealing someone's ideas, if not their exact words, and is much more difficult to catch. I also liked each of the questions you included.

Briansgirl, I agree with you. There are too many issues with this author. I try real hard to not listen to speculation and gossip but I do think that there is too much reliable info that says Claire/Clare plagiarized. This makes me sad as I know many people who have enjoyed the series but I do not think I will read it now.

On a side note, I'm curious about the whole fanfic stuff. Honestly, I do not have an interest in it, even for books/series that I absolutely love, but I'm hearing more and more about it. Are there alot of people who read/write fanfic? I know some writers do not like people writing fanfic and I kind of understand why, wanting to read only material written by the author.

OKay, to answer some of your questions, based on the link I provided and the one Kathryn provided the plagarism was all against her fanfic. However, once she got a publishing contract, she removed all fanfic from sites on the internet. Those familiar with her fanfic said there are portions of it in her published works. What was not said was if any of the lifted sections were the ones under controversy or not.

Did she make money on her fanfic? The evidence points to yes. She hinted at and solicited items (like an ipod) or money (to replace a supposidly stolen laptop) from her fans. From what little was mentioned on her LiveJournal, over $10,000 was raised to replace her and her roommates stolen laptops. They then claimed they'd donate the rest for toys for children at christmas. However, no public accounting of the money donated or where it went was ever published. So although she didn't had them printed copies of her fanfic for money, the examples shown on the link I posted said offers were given to her, often, so she's continue writing or in thanks for writing. Is that legal? I don't know since fanfic is a touchy subject when it comes to it, since you aren't suppose to make a profit on it.

As for the plagarism, fanfiction.net I think was the site, withrew her work due to accusations of plagarism but they never officially charged her with it. (Although it was noted the legal person on their staff wasn't notified). When asked about it, the author either never answers the question or suddenly refuses to answer emails claiming to (convienently) be on vacation. I understand the small quotes from tv shows leaking in and those were documented. It was when whole paragraphs of other printed work started to appear with only a vague note of credit saying she can't remember where she found it) that the fanfiction.net website decided to remove her as an author as she had crossed the line it appears in her work.

From my understanding of what I read, she was involved in three very large controversy's but was never formally prosecuted for any of it. Perhaps because they were fanfic. It does appear from what was written that those in charge of the Tolkein legacy sent her several cease and decist letters as she was selling items with her Tolkein based fanfic on it without permission.

Personally, I think she got VERY lucky in not being formally charged with plagarism or another crime. In more than one instance, one of the articles stated she accepted money stating it would go to charity but no specific charity was ever listed, nor was their a public accounting of how much was donated and where it went, making it look in that article authors eyes that she pocketed the money.

So far I've only read the link I provided and the one I think Kathryn provided. The one I posted is very long and drawn out in places. It does list references which I did not click on further. As it is, I've spent at least 2-3 hours today reading this. That's way more than enough for me to form an opinion. I'm just surprised with this kinda background she could find a publisher willing to touch her work.

please give me links so I know where to get more info from - THANKS!

From what I've been able to find Clare is accused of plagiarism in her FanFic stuff - right?

I also found this quote while researching some of the Harry Potter FanFic:
"The practice of hiding quotes from other media sources in the text of the story was accepted in parts of HP fandom as normal [citation needed:] and it was used as a way of engaging the fans on a mailing list the story was posted to. Readers would guess which parts were quoted and what the source was, they would suggest lines to include from different sources that would fit this or that character, and there were unofficial "quote-nabbing contests" with other fanfic writers.[3:] However, as fun as these practices might have been, they contained huge potential for trouble because they relied heavily on context to be understood. "

Some of the plagiarism could be attributed to that. She used some conversations/lines from Buffy the Vampire Slayer & Babylon 5.

The same article (link at the bottom of my post) goes on to say that she used descriptions from other books & works of fiction providing a couple of examples. While dicey - it falls in the same category as the TV conversations doesn't it? (It should be cited at the very least IMO - game or not.)

There's also mention of her completely lifting a sequence from an out-of-print novel and using it in her fanfic. NOT OK!

So some questions I'm seeking on the internet right now... Maybe someone here has already found the answers.

Since going mainstream (not fanfic) have there been any accusations of plagiarism? I know she uses lines from her fanfic stories - but as long as she was the original writer it’s unimaginative but legally okay (I think).
Did she get paid for her FanFic? If so, that definitely crosses the line from game to stealing!
Plagiarism is punishable by law (right?) - how was Clare punished, if at all? I can't help but think that the publisher/author/someone would have gone after her for it.
Has she apologized for the lifting of the out-of-print novel or does she deny any wrong doing? I'm still looking for her response to all of this. Maybe she admitted it, apologized, and vowed never to do it again all before her Mortal Instrument books were even published.

(by the way I love conversations like this – it makes me do some real research! - I'm off to do some more right now)



http://fanlore.org/wiki/The_Draco_Trilog...

Kathryn wrote: "Thanks for the info."

Your welcome Kathryn. I only recently discovered it. I'm not saying the book may not be good, but based on what I read I'm not going to support the author either.

I've been burned by plagiarism in school before (stupid group projects). I sincerely hope that the allegations aren’t true!

I'm off to read the links provided & searching some other stuff...

It took a bit but I fnally found a link that made sense to me. Others I read just seemed too confusing since I do not read fanfic and know nothing about the associated communities.

http://fanlore.org/wiki/Cassandra_Claire...

I wish I had known about this. I have no interest in supporting an author who is guilty of plagiarism. I have dealt with excessive amounts of such behavior in school and I will not stand for it there, so I also will not let someone profit off of another's work. Thanks for the info.

My bad. It was a psychological disorder, not medication. For fairness of accuracy... here is the complete wikipedia paragraph from the page on Janet Dailey. (All the numbers in brackets are for where wikipedia is referencing their source information listed at the bottom of the page in question.)

Plagiarism
Dailey was sued in 1997 by fellow novelist Nora Roberts, who accused Dailey of copying her work for over seven years. The practice came to light after a reader read Roberts' Sweet Revenge and Dailey's Notorious back-to-back; she noticed several similarities and posted the comparable passages on the internet. Calling the plagiarism "mind rape," Roberts sued Dailey.[9:] Dailey acknowledged the theft and blamed it on a psychological disorder. She admitted that both Aspen Gold and Notorious lifted heavily from Roberts's work. Both of those novels were subsequently pulled from print.[10:][11:] In April 1998 Dailey settled the case. Although terms were not released, Roberts had previously indicated that any settlement funds should be donated to the Literacy Volunteers of America.[9:][12:]

In 2001, Dailey returned to publishing with a four-book deal with Kensington Books. The contract called for two books in the Calder series Dailey has written about a ranching family in Montana, and two books with holiday themes.[13:] Kensington expanded their relationship with Dailey in 2002, when she contracted for three more hardcover novels about the Calder family and an additional mass market original novel. At the same time, they purchased the reprint rights to 50 of her previously published romances.[14:]

Briansgirl wrote: "Same thing happened when I read a wikipedia entry on a popular romance author Janet Dailey when it was discovered that she'd plagarized from Nora Roberts. Roberts took her to court where Dailey claimed it was because of medication she was on, etc."

Really? Medication made her do it? That's both funny and sad.

Doesn't sit well with me either Shannon. The particular article I linked to seems to be fairly well documented and researched, with notes on where they got their information. So it isn't just one person's opinion. I was surprised the wikipedia entry for this author didn't mention a word about previous controversy of this authors unpublished works. (Then again since anyone can edit it, perhaps she had it removed). What surprises me most is with this kind of history, how did a legitimate publisher decide to publish this author? Would seem like a potential legal minefield.

And please don't think I want to start a heated debate over the author of the book. I'm just putting out here what I found and that it changed my opinion of the author enough I won't read her work now. Same thing happened when I read a wikipedia entry on a popular romance author Janet Dailey when it was discovered that she'd plagarized from Nora Roberts. Roberts took her to court where Dailey claimed it was because of medication she was on, etc. Even though I have 70+ books by Dailey (most notably her American series with one book from every state), I havn't wanted to read one since I read this, even though they aren't the books in question. Just turns me off on the author.

Briansgirl wrote: "I was going to read this and have changed my mind based on rumors I heard about the author and my subsequent research. It seems the author, Cassandra Clare previously wrote fanfic under the name Ca..."

I read about that too, it's pretty incriminating stuff. I wasn't going to mention it considering people were already thinking I was trying to discourage people from reading this one.

If you read any of the reviews for this book a lot of people that have read her fanfic note that a lot of it also shows up in this book, although I'm not sure if it's the parts that she plagiarized or not. Either way, it just doesn't sit well with me.

I was going to read this and have changed my mind based on rumors I heard about the author and my subsequent research. It seems the author, Cassandra Clare previously wrote fanfic under the name Cassandra Claire. There is a very long article at http://www.fanhistory.com/wiki/Cassandra... that goes into details of StalkerGate, Plagarism, LaptopGate, etc. If even a portion of this is correct, then on principle I will not support the author and buy a copy of their book nor will I read the library's edition. The article says she solicited money from fans for fanfic, sold items without the proper copyrights, took money saying it would go to charity and then no charity was ever listed. Sorry folks, but this just doesn't sit well with me. So I've decided to skip this group read.

Your welcome. Y'all might as well benefit from my being bored and not sleeping. lol

Thanks Briansgirl!