My response to British Irony (as I've started reading this) seems almost unpredictable. For example, "the Welsh valley of Pant-y-Gyrdl" got an audible, while the hell-hound-as-rat-terrier just seemed sort of silly (maybe because I'd just read Three Men in a Boat). Our perception of the British as stodgy (set up by the elaborately peculiar proper nouns) is probably important (to make the humor unexpected), but on reflection, I can't really say why I thought one passage more effective than the other. Maybe it's totally dependent on random experience.

Any insight?

I was reduced to almost uncontrollable giggling during the scene in which Crowley and the angel (not going to try to spell his name right now) got drunk. I love the relationship between those two, and that conversation was simply insane.

On page 282 I read: "The kitchen tap dribbled like a diuretic gerbil," thought, what?!? went back and re-read it, and had one of those audible chuckles. Maybe the enjoyment of the written word is a function of invested mental effort (comedy just being a subset of the things we enjoy reading). This might have a bearing on Le Guin’s rejection notice for LHOD linked on one of the other discussions. LHOD is complex, and the complexity makes it both good (for those who invest the requisite mental effort) and bad (for those who don’t). I first read LHOD a year or so ago, having been told that it was good. If I had been reading it as a manuscript, without the anticipation that there was some special meat at the core of it, I might have passed on it too.

One of my favorite parts in the book is when Warlock is named. I found that whole scene to be just hilarious. I read this months ago, but that part still makes me laugh.

Becky wrote: "One of my favorite parts in the book is when Warlock is named. I found that whole scene to be just hilarious. I read this months ago, but that part still makes me laugh. "

That's my favorite scene. "Damien is a nice name."

I just ordered this from Amazon with my birthday certificate. I can't WAIT !!!

I've read this book twice already, so I wasn't planning on rereading it again, but I may just change my mind as you guys keep reminding me how funny it is.

Lara Amber

What book are you talking about in the topic "British Irony"? So many, many times the topic title gives no indication of the book's title or author and message after message assumes the reader KNOWS. Probably by osmosis.

I also find it distracting when a book's listing provides the copyright and publishing information over and over again. All that is needed is author and book title.

Kligy wrote: "What book are you talking about in the topic "British Irony"? So many, many times the topic title gives no indication of the book's title or author and message after message assumes the reader KNO..."

It's a discussion on Good Omens.

David, I think Brit-wit relies very often on word-play. The authors not only depend on you reading the text, but also imagining it aloud. It's something that Pratchett in particular uses in his books for character and place names, and he's the source of it in Good Omens. The best example from his Discworld series is the mountain where the gods reside: Dunmanifestin.

To appreciate Brit-wit, you also have to have a great affinity for the absolutely absurd. Death, for example, in Pratchett's Discworld, is a frightening skeletal figure whose somber demeanor suits the general perception and expectation. But he also rides a white horse named Binky, has a great affinity for a good curry, and is a cat-lover. The dichotomy is what makes it hilarious.

If you're interested in exploring the phenomenon of British irony and wit more, you should definitely check out Pratchett's other works, as well as writers like Douglas Adams (of course), PG Wodehouse (a master), Jasper Fforde (Thursday Next and Nursery Crimes series), and even Simon R. Green's Secret Histories series (starting with The Man with the Golden Torc). Robert Rankin's Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of the Apocalypse is also a ludicrous example.

Michelle M. wrote: "David, I think Brit-wit relies very often on word-play. The authors not only depend on you reading the text, but also imagining it aloud..."

Yeah, Prachett is very auditory.

The limited absurdity is like giving your narrator a thread of loving insanity. Total insanity lacks a reference point, but a little insanity makes things different enough to be interesting. Mean-spirited insanity (Three Stooges) can be interesting but not very funny, while loving insanity (Laurel & Hardy) can be just as violent, but also funny.

I went out and bought Good Omens today. I wasn't going to, having most of my July reading planned, but the reference to "the Welsh valley of Pant-y-Gyrdl" did me in. I love auditory word play (to pull from previous posts). Gotta read it now!

Hollow Chocolate Bunnies of the Apocalypse is absolutely outrageous. And I, too, have thoroughly enjoyed Fforde's work. On a side note, Good Omens helped me endure a night at work recently in which I was plagued by severe back pain. Laughter is, indeed, good medicine!

I'm having SUCH fun re-reading this. My favourite laugh-out-loud moment was the "coal scuttle [TM:]" scene. To this day that makes me giggle like a fool.

I wonder if Good Omens really is an example of "British Irony" or whether it's just another example of the authors' exceptional knack for effective word-play and analogies. But I do suspect that readers who know what a particular phrase or scene refers to might get more out of the book than those who don't - whether it's more laughter or more astonishment.

Pratchett is a master of word-play and analogy, Gaiman the king of myth. It shows here just as much as it does in the Discworld series and Sandman. I'm not convinced irony has that much to do with it. Just me?

Jeff wrote: "I was reduced to almost uncontrollable giggling during the scene in which Crowley and the angel (not going to try to spell his name right now) got drunk. I love the relationship between those two,..."

Agree - the best thing about that convation is how many times Crowley said .... "The thing is..." It had me in stitches.

-- Robin The Crown Conspiracy | Avempartha | Nyphron Rising (Oct 2009)

I can't say I'm an expert on the differences in Brit-Wit etc. I'm not a huge fan of Monty Python or Benny Hill etc - but I found Good Omens completely hillarious!

Michelle M. wrote: "David, I think Brit-wit relies very often on word-play. The authors not only depend on you reading the text, but also imagining it aloud. It's something that Pratchett in particular uses in his boo..."

Agreed w/ Michelle's post. This is my favorite type of humor because it is so subtle and absurd at the same time. These books are great re-reads for that reason - you'll catch more jokes each time around.

Loving insanity, I like that.

And it's so true that you do catch even more the second time around. For that reason, I'm going to try to squeeze in a Good Omens re-read soon. My coworker just read it for the first time and all the references are making me realize I need to go back to it!

Understanding the background to jokes does indeed increase the laughter or astonishment. I'm a big fan of British humour in general, both in books and in TV/movies. I'd rather watch a Brit-com than most of the sitcoms we have here in America. There's a subtlety and an edge to the sarcasm that I adore. Of course, some of it is outrageous, but in a somehow finely-tuned way.

Michelle M. wrote: "I'd rather watch a Brit-com than most of the sitcoms we have here in America. There's a subtlety and an edge to the sarcasm that I adore. Of course, some of it is outrageous, but in a somehow finely-tuned way."

Oh, I agree so much with this. Most of the funniest shows I have seen have come from the UK and there are a number of young and very talented comedic actors who are slowly building international names for themselves.

I won't list all the ones I love since the list would be likely be huge, but since its fitting for the group I very highly recommend Black Books. Dylan Moran is brilliant. You can find clips and eps all over YouTube. Hurry hurry and go take a look. :)

I just saw him live. An insane, bitter, hilarious man.

Michelle M. wrote: "David, I think Brit-wit relies very often on word-play. The authors not only depend on you reading the text, but also imagining it aloud."

I totally agree with this. I didn't read this book, but listened to the audio version instead, and it was an hilarious experience. I played it on the car, on my way to and from the job, and I laughed so hard the other drivers must have thought I was a lunatic.

Michelle M. wrote: "I just saw him live. An insane, bitter, hilarious man."

*dies with the jealous* Dude is so damn funny. Go get Black Books. Really. You get Dylan Moran PLUS Bill Bailey. It's like Christmas and your birthday all rolled into one! :)

I love Black Books, it's one of my favorite shows of all time. I, too, love the dark Brit humor (although Moran is Irish) like Blackadder, Red Dwarf, and AbFab. I'm not a huge fan of Monty Python and I never thought Fawlty Towers was very funny. Benny Hill is another realm altogether: mostly slapstick visual comedy and potty humor. I can give that a miss.

But I have to say I didn't enjoy Good Omens that much. I love Pratchett usually, I often laugh out loud when reading about Death, but this just didn't do it for me. I wonder if I would have appreciated it more if I had been listening to it. I'm not sure since I usually can hear the accents and inflection in my head quite well. But it's certainly possible.

I have to say that I love the Queen references (the band, not good old Elizabeth II). Shows that people either love them or hate them, and it is pretty evident that Pratchett and/or Gaiman aren't big Queen fans.

The Crowley and Aziraphale drunk scene is pretty darn good, too.

I guess that I was surprised that a book about the apocalypse was so darn funny. I laughed a lot more that I thought, and as a result, I might just take a look at the Discworld series. Pratchett just makes me bust a gut. I am, however, a Monty Python fan, too, and it takes a special person...

Has anyone else noticed the Caveat on the publishers page? In addition to the traditional "work of fiction" disclaimer it reads:

"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your own home."

A very nice touch!

Libby wrote: "Has anyone else noticed the Caveat on the publishers page? In addition to the traditional "work of fiction" disclaimer it reads:

"Kids! Bringing about Armageddon can be dangerous. Do not attempt it in your own home."

A very nice touch!"

Very true. Armageddon should always be attempted outdoors. If that is not possible, then at someone else's home. ;)

Pratchett and Gaiman definitely appeal to my British irony, and Good omens includes my favourite character DEATH. I like the scene when the postman gets killed, and is looking down at his body when he hears, "I BELIEVE YOU HAVE A MESSAGE FOR ME".
As for the programs mentioned I have to agree that the darker humour appeals. I'd have to add spaced, Father Ted, Sean of the dead and QI,(which often has me crying with laughter).

I love Father Ted, although it's Irish (and the producers got VERY offended when they were lumped in with the British) and Sean of the Dead. I've added Spaced to my Netflix queue. What is QI?

Kelly - QI is the best comedy quiz show of all time. Hosted by Stephen Fry, which is pretty much the highest endorsement any tv programme can boast... ;) It's a very VERY funny show. Try Youtube a clip or two, it is SO worth it!

I am also a fan of British TV. Doctor Who (natch) and Red Dwarf being my favorite Sci fi/fantasy series. Another good comedy is The IT Crowd. It was supposed to come to the States (starring Joel McCale from E!'s The Soup) but has yet to appear.

I think the general set-up of this book is one type of irony piled on top of the other: the fact that Crowley and Aziraphale are trying to thwart the Apocalypse instead of helping it, the fact that their well intentioned attempt to neutralize the Anti-Christ is an entirely moot point since they were dealing with the wrong kid, and the fact that they, and many other characters, in the book were sort of moot since none of them actually had any effect on Adam or on preventing Armageddon. (The part with the mix-up of the kids in the hospital is, of course, pure farce - and I definitely like a good farce.)

A lot of the laugh-out-loud humor, for me, came more from the word play and the commentary, though, than the dramatic irony - which was really more just an amusing set-up for all the other bits to take place in.

I haven't decided, from a semantic and pedantic viewpoint, whether the Dog is ironic or not. Dog certainly isn't what one expects from a Hell Hound - but, in the naming, his essential nature was changed so it's not that he was a Hell Hound in a terrier body. Not really.

On the other hand, since I think it's also the funniest part, semantics aside, I don't care if it's irony or something else entirely - it worked better than a lot of the other bits. *grins*

Liz wrote: "I am also a fan of British TV. Doctor Who (natch) and Red Dwarf being my favorite Sci fi/fantasy series. Another good comedy is The IT Crowd. It was supposed to come to the States (starring Joel Mc..."

Oh, I LOVE The IT Crowd. I've done IT work myself, and its just so funny. I swear I'm married to Moss.

I liked the part where Dog is thinking that this isn't the way he expected to spend the last days before Armageddon but he was enjoying it. Especially the part about the next door cat. :)

Some of my favorite parts are the little asides that aren't about the main characters but show what all is happening in the world.

Like the man from the electricity board who sounds, during his radio interview about the missing nuclear reactor, as if he's ready to quit and go raise chickens. Later, a man in the Metropolitan police considers joining his brother in raising chickens after Crowley drove his car over the M25.

Then there's the cruise ship that had run aground in 300 fathoms of water. Using the "Good old International Codes. They'd been devised eighty years before, but the men in those days had really thought hard about the kinds of perils that might possibly be encountered in the deep", he sends the message "Have found Lost Continent of Atlantis. High Priest has just won quoits contest".

Kelly
QI stands for Quite interesting, the 4 contestants get points for the right answer and facts that are quite interesting. They lose points for giving an answer which you think is right but is wrong, which is often the reason the contestants end up with -35 points. Watched one episode where the audience won with 10 points. Lots of QI on youtube.

Hi, all. Found this group b/c I was coincidentally reading Good Omens this month, and you guys popped up as I was posting my review.

I'm American but I love British humor, or at least what I perceive to be British humor based on watching Wooster and Black Adder and possibly Dr. Who. I was on the ground for most of this book.

It's almost impossible for me to pick a favorite scene, but I'm with Sandi, above -- it has to be the one where Beryl is suggesting names for Adam. And then when they finally come upon the name Adam itself; that was so utterly perfect I wanted to read it out loud to someone.

Random wrote: "Good old International Codes. They'd been devised eighty years before, but the men in those days had really thought hard about the kinds of perils that might possibly be encountered in the deep", he sends the message "Have found Lost Continent of Atlantis. High Priest has just won quoits contest"

This is one of my favorite parts - laugh out loud funny!

I watched a bunch of QI on YouTube last night. Very funny, although it made me feel really stupid. Not just with the obvious answers being wrong but the other factoids floating around, the people named, etc. I liked it a lot.

PBS, in all its many forms, often has Brit-com nights. It's a good way to acquaint yourself with the older shows like Black Adder, Are You Being Served?, Mr. Bean, Keeping Up Appearances, As Time Goes By, the list goes on and on!

I'd heard that IT Crowd is supposed to come to the US. I despair of what they'll do to it.

Father Ted! I have the whole show on DVD. Love Ardal O'Hanlon. I've seen his stand up too, and he's hilarious.

Come to think of it, more than half my DVD collection consists of British or Irish shows and movies. Quite telling...

Speaking of irony, my "word of the day" email for today was "ineffable." I almost fell out of my chair. Oddly enough, I think I misunderstood the meaning of the word all the way through the book. Apparently, it means "Incapable of being expressed in words; unspeakable; unutterable; indescribable." Or, "Not to be uttered; taboo." I'm thinking the first definition fits our story better.

I just finished Good Omens. I loved the scenes with R.P. Tyler, Adam's annoying, nosy, letter-writing neighbor, and his highly refined toy poodle Shutzi. The exchanges with the Four Horsemen (or is it persons?) of the Apocalypse and Adam's Them are hilarious. The book is packed with so many funny scenes (can't you see them in your head?) and so much wordplay that it is impossible to digest in one reading.

British humour is a food fest for the brain, packed with sarcasm, irony, double entendres, while American humor tends to be more guttural.

Jeff wrote: "Speaking of irony, my "word of the day" email for today was "ineffable." I almost fell out of my chair. Oddly enough, I think I misunderstood the meaning of the word all the way through the book...."

I looked that one up the first time I read the book to make sure I understood teh concept. It is very funny the way its used in the book. Here is the description I like - "Ineffability is concerned with ideas that cannot or should not be expressed in spoken words (or language in general), often being in the form of a taboo or incomprehensible term. This property is commonly associated with philosophy, aspects of existence, and similar concepts that are inherently 'too great', complex, or abstract to be adequately communicated. In addition, illogical statements, principles, reasons, and arguments are intrinsically ineffable along with impossibilities, contradictions, and paradoxes. Terminology describing the nature of experience cannot be properly conveyed in dualistic symbolic language; it is believed that this knowledge is only held by the individual from which it originates."

"We shall grapple with the ineffable, and see if we may not eff it after all." — Douglas Adams in Dirk :-)Gently's Holistic Detective Agency :=

Hee. I love the Douglas Adams quote! I might actually remember that...been a long time since I read Dirk.

After all of these posts, I'll have to pop across to Amazon to order immediately

Hi everyone. If there are any Terry Pratchett fans out there, you're invited to join us at the 'Cult of Anoia' Goodreads Group. You'd be welcome!

Being British I'm not too sure about the whole 'British Irony' bit. I totally agree with Blackrose message 31, about the book's basis in irony, but I wouldn't say that was peculiarly British. A lot of the incidental humour seems to me to come from a mixture of British understatement and mild absurdity. I personally have found all the little British references very funny, and hope most people do to.

Oh and please don't mention 'The Benny Hill Show' as British comedy, we can but apologize and hope that some of the other stuff that has come from here and Ireland makes up for it. Black Books and Spaced are especially brilliant IMO.

Richard wrote: "Oh and please don't mention 'The Benny Hill Show' as British comedy, we can but apologize and hope that some of the other stuff that has come from here and Ireland makes up for it. Black Books and Spaced are especially brilliant IMO."

I always wince when I mention British television and all people think of is Benny Hill, Monty Python and Are You Being Served. It would be like mentioning American TV to someone and all they think about is Dick Van Dyke, The Beverly Hillbillies, and The Adams Family. Good shows but hardly representative or even current.

Its a pity Spaced only went two series. I really enjoyed it and adored all of the people involved, especially Simon Pegg. Its been a joy to watch his career bloom over the years. I have to admit I didn't realize he played Scotty in the new Star Trek movie until I saw him on the screen. I about died and was utterly thrilled for him. :)

Another favorite of mine is Coupling. I swear I'm married to Jeff. Well, a mix between Jeff and Moss from The IT Crowd. Yes, this is as frightening as it sounds. :D

Oh, and I have to mention Look Around You. Both series are very funny. Little Britain, My Hero, Bottom, The Mighty Boosh, Fear Stress & Anger, Absolute Power, Big Train, Gimme Gimme Gimme, Hyperdrive, Snuffbox, Hippies, Believe Nothing. Sorry, I didn't mean to start listing.

Anyway, I think what I enjoy the most about UK humor is that understated way of presenting the absurd as common place.

Similar to what Michelle said, a significant portion of my video library originates from the UK.

@Random- Look Around You, brilliant, but weird! My Hero, but only with Ardal O'Hanlon.
It must be an absolute hoot around your house, with that fantastic comedy collection and sense of humour, not to mention your husband.

Oh, when Ardal left My Hero...terrible!

Spaced was brilliant. Coupling was fab. It amuses me that the American version of Coupling used the exact same script and yet...not funny. Not at all. Not in the slightest.

Random, unfortunately we yanks get all the shows ages after they've aired and our only sources for Brit-coms (other than the internet) are BBC America and public television. And BBCA doesn't run many comedies. We are getting Being Human this month though! Yay!

I was pleasantly surprised by My Hero. Only the first couple of seasons are available here on DVD though (at least the last time I checked).

Michelle M. wrote: "Random, unfortunately we yanks get all the shows ages after they've aired and our only sources for Brit-coms (other than the internet) are BBC America and public television."

I'm a Yank too. We have a number of friends scattered through England and Scotland and they tend to keep us up to date on shows they think we will like. Plus we tend to order a lot of DVDs from www.sendit.com (used to be blackstar.uk).

I was shocked at how bad the US Coupling was given using the same script. I guess it just goes to show how much the acting and attitudes play a part in the overall affect.

Lol. Well then, you know how ill-informed we are relying on US television!

It was shocking, wasn't it? I only bothered with the first episode. All the same words, but with none of the subtlety in delivery.

Maybe I need to get my cousins to start sending me comedy reports from Ireland and England. That's a fab idea!