I put this in the off-topic folder. That said, I'd like to suggest a 'general industry trends' topic as I think technology is going to have a massive impact on the publishing industry. What we think of as a book may be radically changed over the next 5-10 years.

Leading this transformation are ereaders and other electronic devices capable of producing print-quality or near-print-quality images. With such a huge backing by amazon.com, the Kindle and DRM formatted books for the iphone are rapidly changing the face of publishing.

To open discussion, I'd like to ask a few questions. Please feel free to add your own or to simply state your thoughts.

1. Have you read a book on Kindle, iphone, or other ebook platform? If so, how would you compare the experience to reading a hard-copy book or a PDF on computer? Were there parts you enjoyed more? Less?

2. Do you own a Kindle platform? If so, what are your thoughts on its quality and cost?

3. If you own a Kindle, what do you think about the cost of ebooks for the platform? Too much, too little? Is there a happy median between ebook price and hard-copy price?

4. Do you think the ereaders will have as much of an impact on the publishing industry as digital music has had on the music industry? Is this an apt comparison? Or are they apples and oranges?

5. What great fantasy and sci-fi books have you found that are available on the platform?

6. What fantasy/sci-fi books are not available that you would like to see?

7. Any other thoughts, observations, worries, hopes?

I hope this is a good opener and can't wait to hear your thoughts. Best wishes and many happy adventures to all!

Hello all,

I’ll be the first to jump in here. I can’t specifically speak to the Kindle as I live in Canada and the Kindle is not available to us. I haven’t yet decide whether that is a good thing or not.
I have read a few books on e-readers and have a mixed opinion about it. On one the positive side it is great to be able to have several books on you at all times that you can pick up in a second. There are many classics that are available through the Guttenberg project, so it makes it easy to catch up on the greats that one has missed. I have a BlackBerry and find that the Shortcovers application is quite good for reading.
On the cons side, I find reading on a backlit screen to be more of a strain on the eyes. Since the screens are small on the devices I use, I find it is not great for reading.

1. Have you read a book on Kindle, iphone, or other ebook platform? If so, how would you compare the experience to reading a hard-copy book or a PDF on computer? Were there parts you enjoyed more? Less?

For the most part, I find that nothing beats reading from paper. The backlit screens are more stressful on the eyes. I would like to see how the Kindle in on this since it is using the e-ink technology.

3. If you own a Kindle, what do you think about the cost of ebooks for the platform? Too much, too little? Is there a happy median between ebook price and hard-copy price?

As I said above, I don’t own a Kindle, but I find that the cost of e-books in Shortcovers to be a bit on the high side. I am comparing this to the cost of paperbacks which is what I usually buy. But considering that when I buy an e-book, I don’t have a physical book and the e-book tends to be DRM protected, I would expect the price to be less than the shelf price of a physical book. Most times the cost savings are miniscule.

4. Do you think the ereaders will have as much of an impact on the publishing industry as digital music has had on the music industry? Is this an apt comparison? Or are they apples and oranges?

I think that e-books will have just as a profound impact, but in a different way. It is inevitable that e-books will have the DRM broken and the books distributed through the file sharing networks. However, the publishing industry needs to look at this as an opportunity rather than trying to stomp it out. They will never be able to stomp it out. They need to look at providing people a reason to purchase. As to how to do this, I don’t have an answer for this.

7. Any other thoughts, observations, worries, hopes?

It will be interesting to see how this plays out. There are great opportunities here for the publishers and for authors and for book readers. They all need each other. Although it could be argued that with e-books, the publisher’s role may be diminished with author’s being able to offer e-books directly to their readers. But for opportunities, we are at a point where it is easier for anyone to read a book. And with devices like the Kindle, it is allowing publishers of periodical type products to be able to deliver content directly to the end user.

Good reading,
Stephen

I'm a Kindle 2 owner, and I love it more then anything else. I consider it more essential then my ipod and my husband laughs about how it's the best gift he's ever gotten me, and if anything happened to it he would need to order one with next-day delivery just to stop the crying.

I find reading on the K2 to be better reading experience then hardbacks. It weighs next to nothing, the text size is adjustable, you never lose you place, ink doesn't come off on your hands and you don't freak when a drop of water falls on it. Reading on e-ink is an incredible experience, it doesn't put any strain on your eyes at all and it's so crisp.

The pricing of books is great. Most books cost me around $6.50 the ones I get for $9.99 are still in hardback. The classics I can get for free or just $1-2. I frequently get free books as publishers do special giveaways. Since Amazon makes samples available of all titles for free, it's nice to download an interesting book sample, read the first couple of chapters, then decide to purchase. I have a dozen samples on my K2, books that looked interesting at the time, and when I'm ready to read, hit the "purchase" button.

I think e-ink and its future friends are going to drastically change publishing. Periodicals and newsletters would save almost all of their overhead without printing costs. Publishers can take risks on more authors and authors aren't stuck with a one-time run and then their book is out of print. As long as their book is on the server, it's available.

Tolkien just became available after much negotiating with his estate. The Harry Potter series will be a long time. Many of the big names have just starting putting their toes in the water with one or two titles (Tepper, Goodkind, Kate Elliott). Robert Jordan & Tad Williams don't have anything out yet. Robin Hobb's novels are all out, most Asimov, George R.R. Martin, Neil Gaiman, Naomi Novik, Vonnegut and tons more. If a book isn't available for the Kindle, I skip it.

My worries is that publishers will insist on artificially inflating prices even after the savings of printing fewer (if any) dead tree books. If they want to keep the higher prices, they better start giving authors larger percentages, or they may find more authors are willing to forgo being represented by a traditional publishing house and are instead dealing directly with the main ebook distributors.

Lara Amber

I find reading on the K2 to be better reading experience then hardbacks. It weighs next to nothing, the text size is adjustable, you never lose you place, ink doesn't come off on your hands and you don't freak when a drop of water falls on it. Reading on e-ink is an incredible experience, it doesn't put any strain on your eyes at all and it's so crisp.

Ok, now you are just making me jealous :) Your first point is why I try to avoid hardcovers, they just weigh too much to be portable. But the rest of your points makes me really like the idea of the Kindle 2. Someone needs to do a Canadian version.

The pricing of books is great. Most books cost me around $6.50 the ones I get for $9.99 are still in hardback. The classics I can get for free or just $1-2…<\i>

The pricing on the Kindle seems better than the pricing for books from Shortcovers. But the advantage of the free promos is very compelling for the e-book distribution model and a good way to get one hooked on a book so pressing the Purchase is inevitable.

I think e-ink and its future friends are going to drastically change publishing. Periodicals and newsletters would save almost all of their overhead without printing costs. Publishers can take risks on more authors and authors aren't stuck with a one-time run and then their book is out of print. As long as their book is on the server, it's available.<\i>

Totally agree with you on these points. Hopefully, the publishers et al will jump at this opportunity rather than stifling it.
My only problem here is the “as long as the book is on the server…”, I have paid for it, I want to be able to read it any time. Unfortunately if the service decides to remove a book, one could be out of luck for the content that they have purchased.

Stephen

My only problem here is the “as long as the book is on the server…”, I have paid for it, I want to be able to read it any time. Unfortunately if the service decides to remove a book, one could be out of luck for the content that they have purchased.

Yes and no Stephen. I was discussing being available for purchase. Not availability for people who have already purchased. Books don't disappear off your Kindle unless you press "delete" and you can also download copies of the files to your local computer hard drive. Amazon does keep track of titles you own for easy redownloading and sending to multiple devices (up to six devices can share one account).

I do know of some non-US-based Kindle owners (in everywhere from Canada to Iraq). What they do is use a credit card with a US address and transfer files via USB (since no whispernet outside US).

Lara Amber

I regularly read ebooks on my pda and have been doing so for many years. I do not find eye-strain a problem and find that the backlit screen is particularly good for reading in bed. I also like the fact that I always have a (normally several) book(s) on me, if I need to fill a few minutes.

I've never bought an ebook, so cannot comment on these. I've only ever downloaded free books from project Gutenberg. This has the obvious downside that there are many good books that are not out of copyright. However, I have looked at the price of ebooks and they are often as or almost as expensive as a paperback copy. I am happy to pay for books (how else would literature survive), don't get me wrong, but the cost of producing ebooks must be less than that of paperbacks, so this saving should surely be passed onto the buyer.

Another problem I've had is battery life. This is obviously less of a problem with devices using electronic ink. So I will be very interested in how this technology develops. For example, I do not like having a different electronic device for each task. So Kindle is not for me.

Perhaps my greatest niggle with ebooks is that it's very difficult to find out how long a chapter is. When I'm reading I often like to know whether I have time to start a new chapter and I do this by flicking through the pages and counting them. Very difficult to do using the software I use to read ebooks. Also paperbacks are great for reading on planes during take-off and landing!

Yes and no Stephen. I was discussing being available for purchase. Not availability for people who have already purchased. Books don't disappear off your Kindle unless you press "delete" and you can also download copies of the files to your local computer hard drive. Amazon does keep track of titles you own for easy redownloading and sending to multiple devices (up to six devices can share one account).<\i>

Ok, I see. I like the idea of being able to download the files to your computer. Having multiple device s per account is good too.

I do know of some non-US-based Kindle owners (in everywhere from Canada to Iraq). What they do is use a credit card with a US address and transfer files via USB (since no whispernet outside US).<\i>

The only problem here is that the whispernet is one of the features that makes this an intriguing device for me. Also not having a US address to get a US credit card may be a problem too.

I have heard rumours that Indigo/Chapters here in Canada are working on a Kindle like device for release later this year. It’s too bad that Indigo and Amazon can get together and just make one device that can be used across both Canada and the US.

I believe one of the problems holding back a Kindle for Canada/Mexico or Europe is procuring access to a whispernet alternative. In the US it's over the Sprint 3G network, which is just wonderful (buy a book anywhere, no computer or wifi hotspot needed). They would need to sign a contract with major cell provider for each country.

I occasionally like to crunch numbers to distract myself from the number crunching I need to do at work. I've had my K2 since February. So far I've purchased 53 books, an average cost per volume works out to $6.01, and total spent on books 318.53. This is without me downloading books from any source outside of Amazon, or spending all my time reading public domain freebies. Every free book I got was offered from the publisher (and some successfully roped me to buy more books from the same author).

When people go "but it's so expensive!!!": Some websites have done the math: The K2 sells for $360, the parts alone are $180 not including marketing, research & development, licensing fees, assembly, shipping, warranty service, customer service, or the fact that Amazon is paying for a data plan to the device. (Yep you can surf the web on it, black & white cell phone version, but still, it's FREE.) They are definitely thinking long-haul and not "quick buck".

Lara Amber

1. Have you read a book on Kindle, iphone, or other ebook platform? If so, how would you compare the experience to reading a hard-copy book or a PDF on computer? Were there parts you enjoyed more? Less?

Yup, I'm surprised to find that I really enjoy reading on my iPhone. The handiness is undeniable. I've found myself reading in line at the grocery store and buying the next book in a series at 2 a.m. I enjoy being able to choose the font and size of the text. It's also ergonomically more comfortable on my arms and back than holding a huge hardback or on my hands than a paperback.

There are some tradeoffs. It can be difficult to flip back to find a point I've missed, or skip to the end to see what happens (terrible habit, I know). I agree with Charlotte about not having a sense of where you are in the chapter. It does change the pacing of my reading a bit. On the other hand, it really bugs me when I'm reading a paper books now and can't instantly look up a word. Or adjust a hard-to-read font. Or when a library books smells like cigarette smoke.

I won't read on my computer, even with the laptop I just don't find it comfortable.


3. If you own a Kindle, what do you think about the cost of ebooks for the platform? Too much, too little? Is there a happy median between ebook price and hard-copy price?

I've used the Kindle reader on my iPhone (not up to snuff yet) and purchased many ebooks from Fictionwise. Between Amazon's lower prices and Fictionwise's preferred customer deals, I've been able to get books for a lower price that I would pay at the bookstore. But it's not quite the same as owning a real book. For books I want to read and re-read I still want paper.

What is really special is the ability to find new and upcoming authors and get great deals on their books and stories. There are so many independent publishers putting out ebooks now, it's just overwhelming. The publishers and authors still get their cut, but the suppliers and shippers are out of luck.

The problem with Kindle is the proprietary format. With Fictionwise or many other sites (eReader, mainstream publisher sites, etc.) I can use a format that is readable on my iPhone, any PDA, my laptop, etc. Over time that may well pay off for me. I believe you can upload PDF files to the Kindle for a small fee. But your Amazon proprietary files are useless on other platforms.

4. Do you think the ereaders will have as much of an impact on the publishing industry as digital music has had on the music industry? Is this an apt comparison? Or are they apples and oranges?

I almost never step foot in the bookstore anymore. It's either ebook or library, with the very occasional Amazon order. But I'm still a huge library patron. If there was a way to view their ebooks on my iPhone (instead of only on my laptop, as it is now) and have the full selection of books available, I would probably switch to that format entirely. And then I'd never have to go to the library either, just download my requests.

5. What great fantasy and sci-fi books have you found that are available on the platform?

More and more every week, from classics to new authors. All of my favorite Urban Fantasy books are available, most of the newer sci-fi, and tons of classic sci-fi.

Thanks for the very detailed answers. I appreciate the wide variety of opinions and experiences. Seems from Catherine's comments, there's a little resistance to a non-common/untransferable DRM. Looking at the music industry digitization, I'd expect this kind of push-back to continue. It'll be interesting to see how it all shakes out. I think it's possible that Amazon will keep partnering with more platforms for its DRM books or even incorporate or flow PDF in some way.

I did have another question about formatting issues. I've heard a number of people complaining about downloading poorly formatted books. In fact, a friend downloaded a Kindle Douglas Adams book and found it had some pretty bad formatting issues -- with a few pages only having eight lines of text. This came as a little bit of a surprise to me as Adams is a very popular author and Del Rey well known for quality. I'm curious, has anyone here had this problem?

Lara Amber wrote: "I believe one of the problems holding back a Kindle for Canada/Mexico or Europe is procuring access to a whispernet alternative. In the US it's over the Sprint 3G network, which is just wonderful ..."

I really do think it's impressive how much work amazon has done and how well they've managed the Kindle entry. When it launched a year and a half ago, I didn't think the world was ready and that amazon may be lucky to sell a couple hundred thousand ereaders in the first three years. Seems they've done more than three times that in a year and a half.

It's true, Kindle has really changed the industry, both through it's sales and through the furor generated. I'm not sure if I would have even tried the readers on my phone if my interest hadn't been peaked by Kindle. And Barnes and Noble recently bought my ebook site in an attempt to compete, which can only serve to increase the offerings. I'm nervous as to what it will do to the discounted prices. Will Amazon's Kindle books' low prices be a Wal-mart factor or will the publishers force a higher price-point? My impression is that retailers are more willing to adjust to lower prices for lower costs than publishers, most of whom charge the same price for all formats.

1) I've been reading ebooks on various platforms since the mid 90s.
My first real response to ebooks was mediocre. You can't really curl up on the couch with a computer and I was sure the smaller page sizes would annoy me. That changed though with our first real mobile ebook reader. By the time I'd finished my first book on it I was hooked. I honestly can't say there is anything I dislike about them. I'm passionate about the smaller size and ability to carry a huge number of books in one small device.

Oh, and the instant gratification. If I want a book, and it is available in ebook format, I can be curled up with it in less than 5 minutes. :)

2) I don't own a Kindle and don't see myself doing so in the foreseeable future. Its too big for my liking (can't easily shove it in my pocket) and I have a thing about my devices needing to be multitaskers. My current ebook reader is my pda phone.
This doesn't mean I have anything against the Kindle itself, it just doesn't meet my needs.

3) In general price seems to be either equal to or less than the cost of the print book. Some publishers are better at this than others.

4) Yes, ebooks are going to have a big impact on the publishing industry. However, I don't think it will be like what we had with digital music.

People were pirating music long before there was an internet music selling presence. DRM came about because of the almost uncontrolled file sharing involved.

For work purposes I usually have to monitor the pirate scenes. One thing I have found very interesting is that books published in electronic format are almost never pirated. Given what a enthusiastic pirate is capable of doing, I don't believe it is because the DRM is really that strong. The sharing you see for ebooks are for books that have not been released in electronic format. People are passionate about the technology enough that they are scanning in books, running them through OCR, correcting layouts, formatting errors and OCR erros.

I heard that JK Rowling said she didn't want the Harry Potter books released as ebooks because of the potential of pirating. Its amusing because the audio books were available within hours of the books being released. First edition ebooks (no corrections) were available within 30 hours.

What this rambling is leading to is that I don't think DRM is going to be as big of a deal going forward as it was with music. I'm not sure how it will turn out, but I'm confident we'll eventually end up at a decent spot.

Current DRM isn't as harsh as it was on music either. For example with fictionwise, I can register up to 8 devices. When an old device is gone I can remove it from the list its slot is available for reuse. I'd have to redownload the book but this isn't really much of an issue.
eReader uses a key instead of hardware and so is usable anywhere as log as you have that key.

5&6) My taste changes with my mood so much that I can't really say what is the best out there. As far as what I would like to see? Well everything of course. :)

7) I would like to see the industry as a whole move towards inclusiveness instead of exclusiveness. That is one of the things that does annoy me about the Kindle. They use their own format (slightly modified mobipocket) and you can only buy ebooks from Amazon if you have their device or an iPhone.

Instead I would like to see it move to just a few global formats. One of the reasons I like eReader is the software is available for just about every platform out there. ePub also has potential though it does need a broader platform support.

Random wrote: "Instead I would like to see it move to just a few global formats. One of the reasons I like eReader is the software is available for just about every platform out there. ePub also has potential though it does need a broader platform support."

I whole heartedly agree with this. Propitiatory formats do nothing to make the industry better. That way there is a broader base for all books and not just limiting them to one device.

I would like to speak to a couple things.

You can read books from sources other then Amazon on your Kindle, you just can't get them via whispernet, they have to be transferred via USB cable. There is a list of supported formats on the Kindle info at Amazon. The Kindle 2 has modified PDF support, the Kindle DX has native PDF.

Yes, some people have come across poor formatting. If you report it to Amazon they look into it, and if necessary yank it until corrected. I believe several Douglas Adams titles just came back after being taken down for a while (as did The Stand), I assume that's the reason they went away for several weeks.

Lara Amber

Lara Amber wrote: "You can read books from sources other then Amazon on your Kindle, you just can't get them via whispernet, they have to be transferred via USB cable. Ther..."

According to a FAQ on Fictionwise

"Amazon.com has made a business decision that keeps any other eBook retailer from selling Secure eBooks that require DRM encryption for Kindle. Unless Amazon changes this policy, we can offer our Multiformat eBooks but not our Secure eBooks for Kindle."

So it looks as though the Kindle can't do secure ebooks through anyone but Amazon.

I'm not sure what they mean by secure? Their DRM? That's not unexpected. You also can't read Sony ebooks (no surprise, biggest competing ereader).

We were talking about this over at kindleboards and this new article got posted.

http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/15...

So it may not be long before Amazon comes to agreements with other companies about supporting their formats on the Kindle.

Off the amazon site for the K2:
Native support: Kindle (AZW), TXT, Audible (formats 4, Audible Enhanced (AAX)), MP3, unprotected MOBI, PRC
Converted: PDF, HTML, DOC, JPEG, GIF, PNG, BMP

Lara Amber

Lara Amber wrote: "I'm not sure what they mean by secure? Their DRM? That's not unexpected. You also can't read Sony ebooks (no surprise, biggest competing ereader).

We were talking about this over at kindleboard..."

What it means (and according to Amazon's support list you put in your message) you cannot currently buy a book in a secure format from any vendor other than Amazon.

Its just an example of the exclusiveness I was talking about in my first post. You are currently somewhat limited on what can be bought if you use a Kindle and you can't buy from Amazon unless you use their hardware (or an iPhone).

1. I read eBooks on my Palm Treo and occasionally on my computer. I like the convenience of having books handy at all times, but I don't find reading on my PDA very efficient or desirable. I dedicated reader like the Kindle would be much better, particularly when traveling.

2. No, but I'm strongly considering getting one. The cost is a bit higher than I'd prefer, but not outrageously so. I can't comment on quality.

3. I haven't looked into this closely. I rarely buy hardcover books, so the $9.99 price Amazon is always talking about seems high to me (although it's obviously low w.r.t. a hardcover). If I had a better idea of what the standard eBook price was for something out in paperback I'd have a better feel for the pricing scheme.

4. I don't think it's an apt comparison. Music and books are very different entities. In the long run, I think eReaders will have a very big impact on the publishing industry and there will be some book/music similarities, such as increased ability to self-publish and self-promote, but I generally don't think all of the music issues will translate to books very well.

5-6. N/A

7. I'd really like to see the Kindle with better format support (native ePub and PDF even on the smaller reader, not just the DX). Color will be critical for better textbook/magazine support.

For those who use the Kindle, one thing I've really been wondering about is library support. I can currently download a (limited) selection of eBooks from my library: mostly in PDF, but sometimes in mobi format. The books are readable for something like 3 weeks. Does the Kindle support this sort of time-limited DRM , at least for the mobi format? (I'm sure PDF wouldn't work, although who knows on the DX)

Being able to read borrowed books would be a big draw. While I do own a lot of books, I borrow even more from the library and don't necessarily want to change to a model where I have to give up the library as a major source of material.

I don't use the library, so I don't know the answer to that.

The reason the K2 doesn't have true native PDF apparently has to deal with the screen size. The DX screen is over twice the size of the K2 screen, which gives it enough width so they don't have to reformat PDF to still be readable.

For the cost compared to paperback: it's usually a few dollars cheaper. Onyx & Crake was $9.99 the paperback is listed for $14.95, The Accidental Time Machine was $6.39 and the paperback is listed for $7.99, Assassin's Apprentice was FREE and the paperback is $7.99.

Lara Amber

When I posted this topic, I had no idea the level of expertise it would attract. For everyone who's posted -- a heartfelt thank you for the long and detailed responses. There is a wealth of information here and I'll be directing anyone asking me about ebooks to the formun as I feel there's quite a bit of value here.

"For work purposes I usually have to monitor the pirate scenes. One thing I have found very interesting is that books published in electronic format are almost never pirated... think DRM is going to be as big of a deal going forward as it was with music. I'm not sure how it will turn out, but I'm confident we'll eventually end up at a decent spot.

Current DRM isn't as harsh as it was on music either. For example with fictionwise, I can register up to 8 devices. When an old device is gone I can remove it from the list its slot is available for reuse. I'd have to redownload the book but this isn't really much of an issue. eReader uses a key instead of hardware and so is usable anywhere as log as you have that key."

This is reassuring to me. Thanks for posting it. And I feel the same way about commonality. Hopefully, it will move that way as the market grows and continues to be more widely adopted.

"The reason the K2 doesn't have true native PDF apparently has to deal with the screen size. The DX screen is over twice the size of the K2 screen, which gives it enough width so they don't have to reformat PDF to still be readable."

So do PDFs come out well on the DX and not in the strange format typical PDF downloads wind up in on the Kindle 1 and 2?

As the wife of an author I can say that I love all the Kindle users out there. We see fantastic sales on the Kindle versions. Originally Michael's publisher was resistive as he has a warehouse of books that he needs to sell. At book signings many people would come by and when it wasn't on the Kindle we lost sales.

Now I'm in control of Kindle rights and I post the books on there right away. His third book Nyphron rising will probably be on Kindle before print just because of the "ease of delivery". I'm a firm believer in keeping the price low - not having to pay for printing is great. The only downside is Amazon takes a bigger cut 65% for Kindle sales as opposed to 40% - 55% when sold through them and a distributor.

Even so I can't complain - Long live the Kindle!!

1. Have you read a book on Kindle, iphone, or other ebook platform? Yep - no kindle yet but use the ipone all the time. Have read a few ebboks through pdf on computer but prefer not to.

2. Do you own a Kindle platform? If so, what are your thoughts on its quality and cost? Not yet, I still use library extensively as life as a writer doesn't pay hubby much. When I can afford it I will

3. If you own a Kindle, what do you think about the cost of ebooks for the platform? Too much, too little? Is there a happy median between ebook price and hard-copy price? I don't own kindle but I think the books that are priced around $5 are about right

4. Do you think the ereaders will have as much of an impact on the publishing industry as digital music has had on the music industry? Is this an apt comparison? Or are they apples and oranges? Good question - not sure - I think reading is more "tactile" so probably slightly less than music - besides you can't get signed copies

5. What great fantasy and sci-fi books have you found that are available on the platform? It seems like all the "new authors" have Kindle versions right away. I've not had problems finding titles but then again I'm not buying them left and right

6. What fantasy/sci-fi books are not available that you would like to see? None that I know of

7. Any other thoughts, observations, worries, hopes?
I hope the prices keep low aveage around $5. I wish Amazon would decrease the commision from 65% but that is probably a pipe dream - they have no competiion really as ereader does not allow for authors to "post their work" they only work with the "big guys" and do the conversions for them.

-- Robin The Crown Conspiracy | Avempartha | Nyphron Rising (Oct 2009)

Robin,

I wouldn't be surprised if one day Amazon did cut their commission. They do have to pay for servers, computer technicians, and shell out money to Sprint for the free-to-Kindle-owners access to the 3G network. Hopefully they will hit the sweet spot for number of purchases to enable them to lower the percentage, especially as more competitors and devices come online.

For pricing it seems that a lot of people at both the amazon boards and kindleboards.com consider $9.99 to be the sweet spot. They consider that to be an acceptable price for most books currently in hardback or the larger size paperbacks. Older paperbacks they expect to be between $5-6, and classics between $1-3. There are definitely some pricier books (go ahead a look, there are some books with prices in the thousands), but those are usually non-fiction: technical, research, and the like, and people understand those are expected to cost more and have smaller audiences. Believe me, when someone offers a book on "Special" for free or $1, it's posted immediately on the boards and people head over in droves to download, so that's a very effective marketing tool for authors.

I'm not sure what ebooks will mean for signings. I think people will always want to meet an author and hear a reading and ask questions. It may be autograph books or publicity photos instead of signing a copy of the actual book.

Robert,
Yes on the DX it's native PDF support, no need for sending it through the email system for translation (I believe just transfer using USB cable), just remember, no color. My husband is monitoring a D&D site where some people are going to post reviews once they get one and load PDF versions of gaming manuals, since they are so graphic and chart heavy. My husband wants a DX mainly for gaming books and his programming books. I may steal it for my cookbooks.

Lara Amber

A gaming DX?? Now there's a great idea :).

Yep, if they suddenly started releasing out of print Shadowrun and GURPS books in PDF/Kindle format, I'd have to hide the credit card from the husband. At least I would get some shelf space back.

Lara Amber

Would make GMing a world easier too. If I ended up with one, my wife would probably have to hide the bank card as well...

"I hope the prices keep low aveage around $5. I wish Amazon would decrease the commision from 65% but that is probably a pipe dream - they have no competiion really as ereader does not allow for authors to "post their work" they only work with the "big guys" and do the conversions for them."

You know, I've been thinking about this too. It seems the 'big guys' are destined to work out bundling deals and other special arrangements as time goes on. But doesn't a small press have an advantage as they don't have to worry about overhead and can price more competitively? Don't know if it matters if you can't command the same reach/marketing presence.

Maybe there's some way small presses could band together to add a little leverage. I'm at a loss for how exactly. Some of the most fiercely independent people I know are small press and indie writers.

One store that buys my bowls does so at 50% of their retail value. I thought that was really high. It is, actually. It limits what I will make & sell through them. I couldn't do it at all at 65%. Different type of product, but still. Wow!

I think the hurdle in our thinking with respect to ebooks is that the cost of production is basically non-existent. We are paying almost directly for the intellectual property of the artist.

In the past, this meant we had a physical object we could touch and feel, share or give away. We can no longer feel what we've bought and with DRM, we can no longer share or donate what we've bought.

I wholeheartedly want artists to receive their due. Without their vision and creativity, the world would be a much duller place.

But Amazon, because it's a behemoth and nearly a monopoly from a book marketing standpoint, seems to be taking more of the artists' cut on Kindle ebooks than seems appropriate. With a bit more competition, that would probably change.

To help small publishers compete, they would need to band together through a trade group, I guess.

At the risk of being terribly redundant and apologies in advance:

1. Have you read a book on Kindle, iphone, or other ebook platform? If so, how would you compare the experience to reading a hard-copy book or a PDF on computer? Were there parts you enjoyed more? Less?

I have a Kindle2 (love it), Treo, and a REB 2150. Each has advantages and disadvantages but overall, all of them are preferable to paper, especially now that I am condemned to wearing tri-focals. The Kindle2 is the best and the backlit problem is easily solved with a $4.95 little light that slips on the cover. I have 335 books on my Kindle2. That's one of its disadvantages -- too easy to buy books. The Treo is great for reading while waiting in line, etc. The REB was a later color model of the original Rocket Book. Still works, I can still buy a limited number of books for it, it's nicely backlit, a little heavy but easily read with one hand. I often read books on my laptop (Mobipocket software.) I find no eyestrain at all reading on a computer or any of the other devices. Magazines are a little more problematic. I subscribed to three on the Kindle as an experiment and haven't quite made up my mind yet. I miss the color, I think and navigation is not as easy on the Kindle as in the print version. I love the idea of not destroying any trees, however.

If newspapers were really smart they would give away Kindles with a two year subscription like cellphones.

2. Do you own a Kindle platform? If so, what are your thoughts on its quality and cost?

Yes. Perhaps a little high, but if you were to purchase the Kindle New York Times and perhaps one other newspaper it would pay for itself in a year. The cost you pay includes access to the wireless network and amortized over the life of a Kindle, its cost becomes trivial. Quality is very good. It should be sold with the leather cover. That's a necessity. I would like to try a DX, but that's a bit steep in price.

3. If you own a Kindle, what do you think about the cost of ebooks for the platform? Too much, too little? Is there a happy median between ebook price and hard-copy price?

The price of ebooks is too high. It should be lower. Unfortunately, I already see some price creep on Amazon, up from $9.99. On the other hand, I got the complete works of Dickens for 99 cents and the whole set was on my Kindle in less than a minute. I suspect down the road, if we get some platform competition (an absolute necessity), eliminate DRM) and agree on a standard format (the number available now and their incompatibility across platforms is ridiculous and a drag on the industry) that prices will come down.

4. Do you think the ereaders will have as much of an impact on the publishing industry as digital music has had on the music industry? Is this an apt comparison? Or are they apples and oranges?

The music industry never understood it was in the distribution business and that new models of distribution come around. Had they been open to downloading early they would have had a chance to continue to control distribution. Too late now. Cat's out of the bag and non-DRM Mp3's will soon dominate. I suspect the publishing industry will make the same mistakes and use the same models for a very different paradigm. Libraries are making the same mistakes. The idea that there must be a loan period for a digital download is ridiculous. It's a worn out paradigm that doesn't fit in the digital world. Publishers and libraries will have to figure out a way to make money in the new world or become obsolete but it won't be doing things the old way. I'm a huge library supporter (was a librarian for 35 years) but if I see a title available for my Kindle, I'll buy it for 9.99 rather than check it out of the library. Easier to read, carry around, no silly due dates, always available, etc. Where I live, I save enough on gas to pay for the books.

7. Any other thoughts, observations, worries, hopes?

I am astonished authors and the publishing industry have not leaped onto the Kindle bandwagon because it promises much larger profits for them in the long run. You can't give away a title you have bought or loan it or whatever so the used book market (which they hate because they get no revenue from it) would dry up completely. I think e-books will have a profound impact on bookstores and libraries, bad for them, really good for publishers and authors (and readers.)

@Eric_W. Your comments are appreciated. I do not have an e-ink reader, like you have trifocals, and have increasing difficulty reading text on backlit LCD screens. I have used a Kindle and find the experience much like reading a physical book and much easier than on a computer screen.

I Have not got a Kindle because of cost, not only of the electronics, but of the content. I only read hardbacks now and buy used ones most often for less than the Kindle prices of the book (including postage). Also much of the professional stuff I read is distributed as PDFs in which color is necessary. The DX will make PDFs easy to put on a Kindle, but it still lacks color and even 8-bit grey scale. These I understand are limitations of e-ink thus far.

The Kindle OS has recently been released, <http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200203720>, which suggests the possibility of clones and Kindle apps similar to iPhone apps.

But, I agree that e-books are the future. The Kindle is the 1st successful product. It falls short of what I need, but I think competitors will take care of that. I am very curious to see if Apple will do anything in this regard. They do movies, music and phones better than anyone. Why not books?

Robert wrote: "I hope the prices keep low aveage around $5. I wish Amazon would decrease the commision from 65% but that is probably a pipe dream - they have no competiion really as ereader does not allow for au..."

I was thinking about this the other day. I wonder what it would take for someone to setup a business specifically as a distributer for authors wanting to self publish ebooks. I'm not sure what rights might be necessary to do DRM, but I don't believe there is for open formats. A distributer like this would only have to worry about server space (ebooks are pretty small), bandwidth, credit card processing charges, and end user support.

I have absolutely no numbers to work from (so just wild guesses here) but I'm thinking 35% commission would be pretty generous. Not only does Amazon have the usual overhead, but they are also paying for the Whispernet usage on all of those Kindles out there.

I did run across some small publishers that focus on ebooks but my thoughts would be that it would only be a distributor/seller and would not be involved in any other aspect. Authors could choose what formats they wanted to have available and whether or not they would have DRM.

Interesting idea. I wonder if it could work.

I think one of the biggest problems that authors face now is bringing their books to the attention of their audience.

I read that there's something like 1/2 million books published every year between the US & Britain. I think that's all books, not just new. If only 1% of those are new books I'm interested in & I read 100 books per year, I'm falling behind by 4,900 per year. Even if I manage a book a day, I'm going to miss the vast majority of them.

Depressing thought for me, the reader. I imagine it is worse for the writer. Lots of competition.

Kernos wrote: "The DX will make PDFs easy to put on a Kindle, but it still lacks color and even 8-bit grey scale. These I understand are limitations of e-ink thus far."

The K2 and the DX both have 16 shades of gray - it's wonderful for the standard black/white photos you would find in a book, but probably not so much for in-color technical reading.

There are many MANY Kindle competitors out there, and some will be bringing to market (perhaps as early as 2010) color e-ink. The problem right now is that the technology behind it is so expensive to reproduce that (as with all new tech) it'll probably only be available to the upper market for a few years (ie - the people who can afford Iliad's). But hey, any competition and innovation is good :)

I see the Kindle's growth mirroring the iPod's. The iPod was tied (though not limited to) the iTunes store, which won the market over due to the vast content available. And it did so by locking down the music with DRM. iTunes recently un-DRMed all its music, I believe in January of this year. I think Amazon is doing the same thing with the Kindle -- trying to get the majority of marketshare before unlocking it's content.

DRM is an infection. It must be avoided at any cost. Any DRM-infected ebook you are buying today is waste of your money because in 3-5 years when you want to re-read it there will be no device that can work with the infected file. You will have to buy the same ebook AGAIN! That is the purpose of DRM and Amazon gladly embraces it because DRM infection makes them rich. At least disinfect ebooks, so when you get a different ebook reader you will be able to convert disinfect ebooks to whatever future ebook format your ebook readers is going to support. Don’t let Amazon and publishers rip you off.

Astra wrote: "DRM is an infection."

Then don't buy DRMed movies/music/books/whatever. That's the beauty of having an opinion and being able to spend your money where you want to.

But I can tell you that you aren't going to win people to your side by using the wording you did.


Astra wrote: "in 3-5 years when you want to re-read it there will be no device that can work with the infected file"

This is true of nearly all technology, not just DRM files, though I think the timeline you've provided is unrealistically short. I really doubt ePub or mobi will be readable on newer devices in, say, 15-20 years.


Astra wrote: "At least disinfect ebooks, so when you get a different ebook reader you will be able to convert disinfect ebooks to whatever future ebook format your ebook readers is going to support"

It is illegal to circumvent DRM until there is no longer support for the file type. Please do not use GR to promote illegal activities.

Actually, I think it's illegal to circumvent DRM at all, whether you can read it or not. It used to be legal to make a copy of an LP, tape or CD & move it to another form of media. I did it for years & still wound up buying multiple copies of music that I liked.

I do agree with NOT buying DRM locked files. DRM locked files are very limited as to where they will play & support big companies/systems (Apple, Microsoft) at the expense of smaller ones (Linux, car stereos).

I have read a few books on the iPhone. I greatly prefer regular books over ebooks but, because my iPhone is with all the time and I don't carry around books very often, I have taken advantage of the eBooks available on the iPhone.

Cory Doctorow was giving away a bunch of his work on the iPhone. Pretty smart idea I thought, because odds are the people reading them would not have bought the books anyway and he may be gaining some new fans.

Kernos wrote: "The Kindle OS has recently been released, <http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200203720>, which suggests the possibility of clones and Kindle apps similar to iPhone apps."

Not really.

From your link:
"Amazon is pleased to make available to you for download an archive file of the machine readable source code ("Source Code") corresponding to modified software packages used in the Kindle device."

Translation: Here are the changes Amazon made to the open source code we borrowed from the internet, and nothing else.

Ars Technica: Amazon code release irrelevant, Kindle is still closed

Danielle wrote:

Then don't buy DRMed movies/music/books/whatever. That's the beauty of having an opinion and being able to spend your money where you want to.
"

That's what I am doing. I don't.

I also make sure that people are aware about danger of DRM and all the problems and issues involved with obtaining the infected products. People must know what they are paying their hard earned money for.

I am sooooo glad I don't own a Kindle:

http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kind...

Well that puts the kibosh on my ever buying a Kindle. Do all ebook stores have this kind of nonsense policy?

Fictionwise does not as far as I can tell. I've been a member there for several months. I still haven't bought any ebooks because of DRM. However, Fictionwise's policy (as the blogger noted) allows you to download your library multiple times and you can change your devices easily.

I really don't know why there is all this problem with the kindle.

I downloaded a free Kindle reader to my I phone from amazon. It is fast and easy and i can link it to up to 6 readers. So if someone has a kindle or an I touch or I phone I can enable sharing.

As far as making a profit we Live in America. Instead of saying they don't have a right to make a profit I am happy they have found a way to protect intellectual property.

You are correct that as technology changes that older DMR versions may not be supported. I am aware of this but for Books I really like could purchase a hard copy. Some of my most loved books have been damaged while being read and i have had to replace them.

In addition, apple has always been very good about file conversion. So if new tech uses a different format I am confident they will offer file converstion of the DMR.

They may charge for the conversion program or per file converted,( though they have not in the past) but do the not have the right to a profit.

I personally cant wait till they have a color kindle. I intend to buy one when they do. I have attempted to use many other portable digital formats and honestly never completed a book. Kindle is the first that I have seen that I can read without feeling distracted by the technology. The Iphone screen is too small but that can be repaired with a full sized version

Using the word infected is a distortion. It is like saying DVD's are infected because they are copy protected. Or Computer programs are infected because they can only be installed on one computer

Intellectual property needs to be protected. I know many people who think nothing of pirating music, or movies or audiobooks. This is theft. I have refused to make use of anything I know to be pirated. DMR actually gives me confidence that the author is getting their fair piece of the pie.

I'm not against an artist or author or other holder of copyright not getting their fair share.

I am against the corporations, publishers and Amazon, who are making profits at the expense of the artists.

Cory Doctorow has much to say against DRM and he's a very well known author, currently up for a Hugo for Little Brother.

When I purchase something, I purchase it outright to own forever. I'm not leasing it or renting it.

Kevinalbee, DRM doesn't really protect IP.

When you buy a book, or a CD, the physical kind, not the electronic kind, you OWN it. You don't own the content (the IP), but you do own the medium that contains the IP. After you read a book, you're free to sell it at a used bookstore, pass it along to your best friend, donate it to the library, etc. DRM prevents you from doing that with your files, which you own just as much as you own the paper book or the plastic CD. And it manifests in uglier ways than not being able to hand it off to a friend when you no longer wish to own it - the link Jon posted shows how you really don't own it indefinitely like you do a paper book. Which COULD be fine, IF Amazon informed their customers of this. As Jon's link shows, customers are having to find out the hard way.

And artists and authors are not the ones benefiting from this, but rather Amazon and Apple.

Of course companies have a right to earn a profit, but that insistence is sort of pointless, since they don't have a right to our business. Consumers will go elsewhere if they perceive they're being screwed over by Amazon and that they receive a more secure product for their money from a company that doesn't slap a DRM restriction on something they legitimately buy.

Even I didn't expect it to be so bad...I am flabbergasted.

I hate DRM. That being said, it wouldn't be necessary if people weren't abusing the system If you really want to see an example of restrictive licenses, read the one that came with the software for your computer. It was Bill Gates who almost single-handedly destroyed the first-sale doctrine that prevents you from loaning or giving away what you thought you bought (you didn't, you signed a license to use.) You basically can't do anything.

I remember going to a presentation by Adobe about their ebook readers. They actually had a clause that forbade anyone from reading over the shoulder of someone else. And speaking of infections, does anyone remember the rootkit destructive software that Sony had added to their CDs that would actually disable the CD player in your computer? I think Amazon and iTunes and Audible (all of which I use extensively) have made reasonable compromises. Amazon and iTunes and eMusic are all making moves away from DRM (Music from Amazon is DRM free) because they have discovered it's often more profitable not to have DRM. The same will be true of Kindle files down the road. If you really want to do something useful, lobby your Congressman to get rid of the DMCA and the RIAA and their ridiculous lawsuits against ostensible abusers. DRM restrictions are placed on material because of the publishers fears, not the distributors. Don't blame Amazon for requirements from the publishers. Better a reasonable form of DRM than no ebooks at all. And yes, I own several IPODS, MP3 players, and a Kindle and love all of them.

References: http://www.anti-dmca.org/

http://www.eff.org/riaa-v-people

http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/...

http://paulstamatiou.com/the-future-of-d... (from 2007!)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Sony_B...

Jon wrote: "I am sooooo glad I don't own a Kindle:

http://www.geardiary.com/2009/06/19/kind...
"

Oh wow, that's ugly. I know Fictionwise doesn't have any download limits and I've not run into the situation with any of the other vendors I frequent.