Although playing the piano amuses me, the moment I touch a violin I run screaming from the room.

Much more fun, and uses a subordinated clause.

David wrote: "But Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas any more.
And Dorothy, what are you going to do about it?

Venial sins at worst."

Starting a sentence with a conjunction is well accepted in fiction writing, David, if it fits the style of the dialogue or the narrative voice of the writer.

Paul wrote: "Cecily wrote: "And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too."

I don't want to be prescriptive here, but if we think about what a conjunction is actually used for, then it is often not..."

I think, strictly grammatically speaking, there should be a comma in that first sentence:

<<<I like playing the piano but I hate the violin.>>>

If a conjunction joins two independent clauses, then a comma is required before the conjunction:

I like playing the piano, but I hate the violin.

I'm pretty sure this is correct. Thoughts?

Ruth wrote: "English is my husband's second language, too, but he speaks and writes it better than many native speakers. He started learning it in school in the 6th grade. In med school he was given the choice ..."

Ruth, when I lived in Europe, I found that almost all the Scandinavian people spoke wonderful English. Better than Americans! I think the educational system in Scandinavia is very, very good.

Because I've never read the Oz books, I cannot comment. But what about the habit of writing cannot as two words (can not)? Un nerving, is n't i t?

But Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas any more.
And Dorothy, what are you going to do about it?

Venial sins at worst.

Thanks Paul, but I know what the word "conjunction" means, and I certainly don't recommend making a habit of starting sentences with them. However, such usage is common (though not frequent) throughout the ages, both spoken and written, by great writers (and bad).

The purpose of language is to be understood and ideally to convey meaning in an elegant way. Grammar is a means to that end, not an end in itself. However, in schools and grammar books, it is easier to teach a "rule" than to teach discernment, so that is often what happens.

Sometimes it sounds better, to start with a conjunction, and if it's good enough for Shakespeare, Austen, Dickens and others, it's fine by me too.

For those of you who want a humourous take on this, have a look at my latest Sunday Scribblings post: http://writersnoteobook.blogspot.com/200...

Cecily wrote: "And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too."

I don't want to be prescriptive here, but if we think about what a conjunction is actually used for, then it is often not good usage to start a sentence with one. A conjunction is used to join two utterances and to show their relationship. Some examples:

I like playing the piano but I hate the violin.
I like playing the piano and the violin.
I like playing the piano because it soothes my nerves.

In some cases where we have more than two utterances, they are often written as two or more sentences. See the following example where we have three utterances:

I like playing the piano.
The piano soothes my nerves.
The violin excites me.

This could be written as two sentences, the second sentence starting with a conjunction: "I like playing the piano because it soothes my nerves." But, in my opinion the three utterances belong together in one sentence: "I like playing the piano because it soothes my nerves; but the violin excites me."

Now, I'm sure you've noticed that I began my sentence above with 'but' - a conjunction. As I say, we can't be prescriptive about this, especially in more complex constructions. All I want to say is: reflect on the words you use and why you are using them and write accordingly.

English is my husband's second language, too, but he speaks and writes it better than many native speakers. He started learning it in school in the 6th grade. In med school he was given the choice of textbooks in English or German (there were none in Norwegian) and he chose English.

You have had an enriched education , with all your travels. Lucky you.

I think a lot of people born in that part of the world speak very good English, Carol. I can also get by in German, having lived in Zuerich for ten years. I went to school in Switzerland, but it was an American school.

Good for you. I never learned hubbys language. It's only spoken in two countries, it not like the world is clamoring to learn it. hahahahaha

Sebastien's thirty-one and I don't think he'll ever speak perfect English, but that's okay. My family is French and I learned French right along with English.

My husband spoke the Queen's English from the time he was 5 years old. Now he just speaks Americanese.


edit : he is in his 60's now.

Yes, it does, NE.

Carol, my husband never spoke a word of English until about 2001.

Sweetness goes a long way, especially in a mean world.

My husband went to all English schools in his country, and being married to me, he has very little accent.

English is my husband's second language, too, after French, but he's still a lot better in French than he is in English. He has a heavy accent and while his spoken English if fine, his written English is terrible. But he's sweet, so we all forgive him for not trying harder.

I think I have said this before , my husband and children are always laughing at my Grammar. English is a second language for hubby and he knows more then me.

I like it a lot, but then, I'm an editor, so I'd better know grammar. I don't always make my posts perfect grammatically, but I do have to know it for work.

It is still all Greek, Latin whatever. I get so confused. I have a pea brain when it comes to Grammar.

carol (akittykat) wrote: "So is it awhile or a while or alot or a lot? I have used both."

<<<When "awhile" is spelled as a single word, it is an adverb meaning “for a time” (“stay awhile”); but when “while” is the object of a prepositional phrase, like “Lend me your monkey wrench for a while” the “while” must be separated from the “a.” (But if the preposition “for” were lacking in this sentence, “awhile” could be used in this way: “Lend me your monkey wrench awhile.”)>>>

http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/awhile...

Cecily wrote: "Of course you can end a sentence with a preoposition. The prohibition was invented, along with many other grammar rules, when the first grammar books were published, and based on Latin grammar. In ..."

I totally agree, Cecily. And I just repeated some of what you said first.

David wrote: "Can you end a sentence with a proposition?"

Sometimes it's right to end a sentence with a preposition:

References for those who want them:

1. Huddleston, R. and Pullman, G.K. A Student's Introduction to English Grammar. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2006, p. 20, 137-8.
2. Strumpf, M. and Douglas, A. The Grammar Bible. New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2004, p. 231, 217.
3. Thurman, S. The Only Grammar Book You'll Ever Need. Avon: Adams Media, 2003, p.32.
4. Stilman, A. Grammatically Correct. Cincinnati: Writer's Digest Books, 2004, p.264.

One of the reasons the "myth" that it's not okay to end a sentence with a preposition developed because people considered English an inferior language when compared to Latin. So they tried to force Latin grammar rules onto English. The problem with that as I'm sure everyone knows, is that English is a Germanic language, not a Romance language. The rules of Latin simply did not apply to English.

Winston Churchill's "That is the sort of thing up with which I will not put!" is correct when stated, "That is the sort of thing I will not put up with." He wasn't ending his sentence with an adverb, but with an adverbial participle, and it's okay to end a sentence with an adverbial participle.

Yes, a lot of these rules are forbidden in schools, but we must remember that schools create and feed their own monsters (like the 5-paragraph essay) typically seen NOWHERE in the real world of writing.

Bottom line: Real writers occasionally end a sentence with a preposition, more often start one with a conjunction, and even raise hell when they feel it's alright. Oh. And they use contractions a lot, too. And the pronoun "I," which schools say do not belong in a formal (oh, my!) essay. And write fragments. And use comma splices, they just do.

When I was a child I thought like a child, now that I am older , ah shoot, I still think like a child.

Churchill: "Ending a sentence with a preposition is a situation up with which I shall not put."

Remember the phrasal verb . . .

Yes, "sentence initial c-ordinators" are fine, though that is not to recommend reckless usage! Look around. It's commonly used throughout the history of written English and isn't mentioned in early grammar books (and even some modern ones).

The prohibition possibly arose from school teachers fed up with reading things such as "We went to the park. And I fed the ducks. And I flew my kite. But it broke." A blanket rule is easier to teach than a real feel for language.

Cecily wrote: "And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too."

Even "but"? I'm sure I was taught not; though I can't find any proof.

I'm finding a disconcertingly large amount of writing style seems to be taste oriented. I've tutored for the local community college this past semester. One of the students I worked with told me her professor required them to repeat the sentences of their thesis paragraph word for word as topic sentences in the succeeding paragraphs. At first, I thought she must have misunderstood, but she showed me a paper which the professor had marked all the paragraphs with that instruction. I found it terribly distracting as a reader. Also, it seemed a little insulting to the students. If I were a teacher of English Composition II, I would be trying to make the students enjoy words and writing, not make them spit out the same exact words over again. I know our county has low literacy rates, but the job that professor signed up for is teaching. I think she's doing it wrong. Of course, the job I signed up for was tutoring, so I did what was necessary (with gritted teeth) to help that student improve her grade.

Anna wrote: "Alright. I have just started a fight in another group over this age old question. Can you end a sentence in a preposition? I think not."
My The Elements of Style has nothing on the subject, so I am inclined to say officially anything goes. My personal opinion is that, especially in dialogue, forcing the preposition forward looks awkward and overly formal. “From where did you come?” seems like it ought to be said by a gentleman in a powdered wig. Same said reference, though mine is admittedly an older edition, indicates that “all right” is properly written as two words. I consider “alright” to be fine in conversational use. I wouldn’t use it in an APA paper, but this is a web forum. We can relax into slightly non-standard I think. Pull up a cushion and have some tea.

Newengland wrote: “Alwrong.”
I admire your admission. ‘Twas stylishly done.

Alwrong.

Alright is definitely a Stage 3 or 4 in English English!! Alright?

That's exactly what I was speaking of. And you said it so well, too.

Of course you can end a sentence with a preoposition. The prohibition was invented, along with many other grammar rules, when the first grammar books were published, and based on Latin grammar. In Latin, they do "pre" (before) position the noun, but English is not the same language. As Churchill may (or may not have) said, it's the sort of silly prescriptivism "up with which I will not put". And it's fine to start a sentence with a conjunction too.

Great writers, past and present do these things because often they are the clearest and most elegant way to express what they want to say.

Oops. "Alright" is in my Webster's, too. Maybe I mean the usage books. Just out this year, Garner's Modern American Usage says:

"Alright for all right has never been accepted as standard in American English. Gertrude Stein used the shorter form, but that is not much of a recommendation... This short version may be gaining a shadowy acceptance in British English (where appearances in print are more common than in American English)."

On his "Language Change Index," Garner gives alright a Stage 2 rating (though I think it should be a Stage 4 or at least a Stage 3). His ratings are as follows:

Stage 1: Rejected.
Stage 2: Widely shunned.
Stage 3: Widespread, but...
Stage 4: Ubiquitous, but...
Stage 5: Fully accepted.

It's fine to end a sentence in a preposition if that's the least awkward way to say what you need to say. Often in more formal writing it sounds best to keep the preposition before its object ("This is the argument with which I beg to differ"), while informally that would sound stuffy ("He left with the same girl with whom he came"--better "He left with the same girl he came with").

But do take note: many end-of-sentence prepositions are actually functioning as adverbs. For example, "She closed her eyes and jumped down." If you keep that in mind, Anna, seeing such constructions may be less excruciating to your grammatical sensibilities.

I'm a lot less hyper about grammatical infelicities in published or otherwise public venues than I used to be. I think it's because I edit six days a week, which calms my instinct to correct & gives it plenty of vent. Makes me nicer to be around.

Newengland wrote: "Yes, you can end a sentence in a preposition. There is no rule against it -- just a prejudice against it on the part of a certain grammar book writer once upon a time.

And "all right" is still th..."

Alright is in my Webster's. Sorry!

Aright aready, this is strictly from hunger!

NE said....."And "all right" is still the way to go, try as "alright" might. I know, I know. It's a coming, but until it's in the dictionaries, I will remain...

Stubbornly yours,
NE "

CollinsEnglish Dictionary 1979 Edition, p41: al+right, adv. a variant spelling of all right.

So there!!!

It's always "a lot" (two words).

Re: "a while" vs. "awhile" from Bryan Garner's Garner's Modern American Usage:

"As a noun, spell it as two words <he rested for a while> <it took quite a while to learn this>. As an adverb, spell it as one <he rested awhile>."

So is it awhile or a while or alot or a lot? I have used both.

Can you end a sentence with a proposition?

Yes, you can end a sentence in a preposition. There is no rule against it -- just a prejudice against it on the part of a certain grammar book writer once upon a time.

And "all right" is still the way to go, try as "alright" might. I know, I know. It's a coming, but until it's in the dictionaries, I will remain...

Stubbornly yours,
NE

Alright. I have just started a fight in another group over this age old question. Can you end a sentence in a preposition? I think not. There is always a better way to construct the sentence. Thoughts?

I think you're right, NE.

I think it's because the list of ingredients looks like a "sentence" while the cookbook ingredients look like a list. Period in the first case, nunca in the second.

Aha. Just checked on some of the stuff in my larder. They all have a period after the list of ingredients.

It should have a full stop.

I am, but shouldn't it be approached the same way?