No problem. I think it was the 'General Public' clause that I was struggling with because my vision of 'General Public' is made up mostly of people who think 'Harry Potter' is the pinnacle of literature :-) If I replace 'General Public' with 'mainstream literary critics' it all fits OK. Besides, I am also a big fan of 'The Sparrow' so why would I argue? :-p

I've only read 4 of these, but have the following thoughts on two of those that I have read. First, Left Hand of Darkness is a great book, but people might want to read Rocannon's World first. And if their preference is toward science fiction rather than fantasy, and they've never read LeGuin, they might want to read Lathe of Heaven first. Second, I understand there are a lot of chopped up versions of Shelley's Frankenstein out there, used educationally, for the most part.

Robinhj wrote: "Ok so that would be '1984' and 'Frankenstein' & 'Clockwork Orange' (also Verne & Wells) but not any of the others on the shortlist...."

You forgot to mention The Left Hand of Darkness, Robinhj, which is an important text in Gender Studies and is widely studied in colleges and universities across North America.

Vonnegut's work, as a whole, has had significant cultural influence beyond Sci-Fi, so any of his better works qualify (and Cat's Cradle was the first nominated, so it got the nod). Crowley has been canonized by none other than Harold Bloom, validating the choice of Engine Summer. And as for Oryx and Crake...well, surely the fact that it was short listed for the Booker Prize makes it a strong enough candidate for our list no matter your preference for The Handmaid's Tale.

Also, Robinhj wrote: "I am still confused (and I suspect people are bending the rules just to nominate books they want to read):-)..."

The only person who could possibly be bending the rules is myself, since I made the rules and am in charge of the poll, so your witticism has been noticed by the intended eyes. I am confident, however, that I didn't bend my own rules for any of the books on the list (with the possible exception of The Sparrow, which I believe a convincing enough case can be made for).

Regardless, the list is complete and the voting is on. We'll all simply have to make due with the outcome.

Good as .Oryx and Crake is surely The Handmaid's Tale is the Atwood novel that the public is most likely to know. And as a nominee for both Booker & Nebula awards it definitely meets the criteria

"written a Sci-Fi work that has transcended its genre to become "canonical" -- for lack of a better term (canonical is used here to mean a work that is widely studied, has had a cultural impact beyond the genre or is generally accepted as a "great novel" by the general public"

Ok so that would be '1984' and 'Frankenstein' & 'Clockwork Orange' (also Verne & Wells) but not any of the others on the shortlist. The non-SF reading "general public" would not have heard of any of the others with the possible exception of 'Fahrenheit 451' and then only if they are film buffs who know their obscure stuff. Also, much as I love some of them, I could not honestly say any of those remaining have had any cultural impact beyond SF.


I am still confused (and I suspect people are bending the rules just to nominate books they want to read):-)

Definitely A, B to a lesser extent, and the additional criterion of a Sci-Fi author, whatever their quality, who has written a Sci-Fi work that has transcended its genre to become "canonical" -- for lack of a better term (canonical is used here to mean a work that is widely studied, has had a cultural impact beyond the genre or is generally accepted as a "great novel" by the general public). I hope that helps.

You probably can't include it as it barely qualifies as a 'Novella' but a serious writer who wrore a major classic of SF is EM Forster with "The Machine Stops".

BTW, I am still not entirely sure what the exact criteria is here so can someone clarify?

A) Someone who is mostly known for highly respected mainstream literature but has also written one or more 'good' SF books

B) Someone who is mostly known for 'good' mainstream books but has also written a 'classic' SF book

C) Someone who is mostly known for 'good' SF but has written a classic mainstream book

D) Someone who has written at least one classic book in both the mainstream & SF Genres

Thanks for the input everyone. I am going to put the first poll up now.

After much thought, and taking Jeffrey's concerns into account, I killed Bester's The Demolished Man, and I seconded The Wind-up Bird Chronicle to replace it with. Just thought y'all'd like to know.

OK - if I'm online. = )
Going offline now for the weekend - check with you on Monday!

Carolyn wrote: "I ask because I'm not on the computer weekends or nights (usually), so I'd hate to cut it so short that some folks miss the window to vote..."

Okee Doke. I can do that, Carolyn. 5 days it is. But if I'm not able to find a moderator for the discussion I may come hunting you down ;)

Jeffrey wrote: "I am not sure how The Sparrow transcends science fiction genre but I didn't like the book so I may be prejudiced..."

I think that in the case of The Sparrow, it is the author that transcends the science fiction genre.

Brad, while I really like the idea of a poll and then a run-off poll (which another one of my groups has been doing for a long while and it works really well), please don't make each poll be for too short of a time period - perhaps 5 days? (instead of 3)?
I ask because I'm not on the computer weekends or nights (usually), so I'd hate to cut it so short that some folks miss the window to vote...

Jeffrey wrote: "I think you cannot add Bester and exclude other pure science fiction writers...."

I tend to agree with you on both Russell and Bester, Jeffrey, but the one difference in Russell's favour here is that she tends to attract many folks who would never pick up another Sci-Fi book -- "maiden aunts" (tip of the hat to Manny), mom-in-laws and snobby boys deep in their Proust.

Verne is a good pick. I hope someone seconds. Frankenstein is already on the list.

I am not sure how The Sparrow transcends science fiction genre but I didn't like the book so I may be prejudiced.

I think you cannot add Bester and exclude other pure science fiction writers.

I have been thinking more about this subject and would add

Frankenstein by Mary Shelley.
20,000 Leagues under the Sea by Jules Verne.

I like the idea of semi-finals / finals polls w/ short voting times. Just makes it easier when so many books are nominated. Great suggestions! How wonderful to have too many good books to pick from!

I added Bester to the list tentatively. I love his stuff, but I would have excluded him entirely because of his place as a Sci-Fi mainstay but The Demolished Man has influenced many works beyond the world of Sci-Fi. Any objections to adding him?

Oh, some terrific suggestions. I feel like a kid in a sweet shop (candy store for our transatlantic friends).
I'd like to second :
Gun, with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem. A book I think would create diverse reactions from the group. A Marmite book you could say.
A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess about as inventive and stylistic as they come.
The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester. Might be a bit dated now, but its use of novel stylistic methods I think could get it on this list.
Good idea of semi and finals. Makes me feel less guilty for seconding so many books.

I like the sound of that, Lara. I can make that work too if I simply make the polls shorter. 3 days for each should do it.

That is so many titles we may need to do two polls, a "semi-finals" round and then the "finals".

Lara Amber

Thought I'd move the list over to page two for easy viewing.

The current members of next week's poll:

Oryx and Crake by Margaret Atwood
Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell
The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell
Frankenstein by Mary Shelley
Engine Summer by John Crowley
Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut
Concrete Island by J.G. Ballard
The Yiddish Policeman's Union by Michael Chabon
Out of the Silent Planet by C.S. Lewis
Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro
The Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula K. LeGuin
Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
Gun with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem
A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess
The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester

I would love to read Fahrenheit 451 on my Kindle. That would qualify as "irony" right? Reading it on a device that doesn't burn but is named after a flame and advertised that it will rekindle your love of reading?

Lara Amber

Hoopla, I didn't notice the Vonnegut on the shelf. Sorry. ;)

Anyway, scrolling through all these very excellent nominations, I heartily second Fahrenheit 451, for what it's worth. That books is so wonderful it haunts me to this day. Would love to read it again.

But then, everything mentioned sounds real exciting!

Libby wrote: "And while “literary” is by definition a broad term, I think we’ve all read enough to know what qualifies as literary as opposed to pulp fiction (which, for the record, I love just as much as the “literary” stuff)..."

Me too.

Brad wrote: "Shannon wrote: "I thought The Left Hand of Darkness was a well-established sci-fi book. That's certainly where you can always find it. And didn't it win some sci-fi award too? He goes to another pl..."

Well stated Brad - I think that clarifies the theme. So many books fit in multiple genres that it can be hard to make these determinations, but to me, Literary Sci-Fi would be either (1) an established literary author who has published a SciFi work or (2) a SciFi author whose work is so well regarded and that it has crossed over into the genre of general fiction literature. And while “literary” is by definition a broad term, I think we’ve all read enough to know what qualifies as literary as opposed to pulp fiction (which, for the record, I love just as much as the “literary” stuff)

Ah, I see. Then The Left Hand of Darkness would be perfect.

I was simply mentioning Drood as one of Simmons non-Sci-Fi books
Whoops. From one breath to the next I forgot the genre!

Shannon wrote: "I thought The Left Hand of Darkness was a well-established sci-fi book. That's certainly where you can always find it. And didn't it win some sci-fi award too? He goes to another planet to study an..." I should clarify. While I agree with What Shannon was saying about Connie Willis not qualifying due to the fact that she is an established SciFi writer that doesn't mean that established SciFi writers are ineligible.

As Richard mentioned in the poll discussion and we've been skirting around in this discussion, there are really two categories of Literary Sci-Fi we are looking for in this round of nominations: one, Sci-Fi works by "Non-Sci-Fi" writers (which can often simply mean folks who aren't generally percieved as Sci-Fi writers), such as Atwood, Ishiguru, Mitchell etc.; two, "canonical" (I hate that term, but it seems to be the best descriptor for what we're trying to do here) works of Sci-Fi, which can works by authors like Le Guin, Bradbury, Wells, Vonnegut etc. So these books can be recipients of Sci-Fi awards, but they must have a greater impact on the literary world as a whole than simply being a Hugo award winner.

I hope that clears things up.

Also, I was simply mentioning Drood as one of Simmons non-Sci-Fi books. Sorry, Shannon. It really can't be included here.

Good point with Jonathon Lethem, Jeffrey. I missed that somehow. So that is definitely a nominee. Any seconds?

Shannon wrote: "I'd love to read Drood by Dan Simmons, so I'll second it, but it's still in hardcover and is way too expensive for me.
"

Simmons has gotten away from SF recently with Drood and The Terror. I read the latter and really enjoyed it, though it is pure historical with a horror element, but no SciFi elements.

Well if that is the criteria (not crazy about it) then Gun with Occassional Music by Jonathan Lethem should be included. He is a general novelist having written Motherless Brooklyn among others. This is his only book that is "sfish", and is usually shelved with the rest of his books in regular fiction.

I will also nominate Clan of the Cave Bear by Jean Auel, which is a very good book about prehistoric man.

1984 by George Orwell
On the Beach by Nevil Shute
The Andromeda Strain by Michael Crichton

I thought The Left Hand of Darkness was a well-established sci-fi book. That's certainly where you can always find it. And didn't it win some sci-fi award too? He goes to another planet to study an alien race - that's pretty science fiction!

I'd love to read Drood by Dan Simmons, so I'll second it, but it's still in hardcover and is way too expensive for me.

Shannon wrote: "I don't think Connie Willis works here Jeffrey - she's an established sci-fi author and having won sci-fi awards excludes her, I'd say. Some of your other nominations, the ones that I know and/or have read, face the same problem...."

I think Shannon's right about Willis and most of the others.

Of your list of nominees, Jeffrey, I think only Fahrenheit 451 and Left Hand of Darkness (Slaughterhouse-Five too but there is already a Vonnegut on the official list]) have sufficiently eclipsed their genre to be considered for inclusion in this months category (although I must say that there are some damn fine books on that list).

Despite the nomination and seconding for Ilium, the same holds true for Dan Simmons. I am a huge fan of his work, and I consider it literature of the highest calibre (and his intertextuality blows my mind), but nothing Simmons has yet written has risen to prominence beyond SF/F/Horror (I have my fingers crossed that Drood will be the first, though).

Mary Doria Russell's The Sparrow, on the other hand, has transcended genre and introduced a much wider audience to Sci-Fi, while still maintaining literary quality. Still, she's no Ursula LeGuin, and it grieves me that her work is more widely regarded than LeGuin's incredible stuff.

Oh yeah...I second The Left Hand of Darkness.

I'll second Cloud Atlas, Oryx and Crake (not that it needs more!), Never Let Me Go, and The Yiddish Policeman's Union.

I haven't read Cloud Atlas yet but I did get a copy after Ben recommended it a while back :)

I don't think Connie Willis works here Jeffrey - she's an established sci-fi author and having won sci-fi awards excludes her, I'd say. Some of your other nominations, the ones that I know and/or have read, face the same problem.

This theme is more about "literary" authors who have written a book that could easily be science fiction, but is still shelved in the regular fiction section.

Brad wrote: "So far Russell is looking pretty safe."

Great! :)

I'll second Ilium, by Dan Simmons.

Becky wrote: "I would argue that Mary Doria Russell has a literary reputation, even though half of her published books are science-fiction. / I nominated The Sparrow because I feel that it has both literary and..."

So far Russell is looking pretty safe.

I will agree on the chabon book because I think its very good.

I will nominate The Doomsday Book by Connie Willis, which won both the nebula and hugo award and is about a time traveler who goes back to the time of the plague and is stuck there.

I want to also nominate some other novels -- by SF novelists -- I would rather read books by sf novelist that are literary than books by Atwood that seem to cover a science fiction like topic.

I will also nominate:

Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury
The Martian Chronicles by Ray Bradbury
More than Human by Theodore Sturgeon
Slow River by Nicola Griffith
Slaughterhouse Five by Kurt Vonnegut
Gun with Occasional Music by Jonathan Lethem detective noir/ time travel
Left Hand of Darkness by Ursula Le Guin
Pattern Recognition by William Gibson
A Canticle for Leibowitz by Walter Miller
Grass by Sherri Tepper

I would argue that Mary Doria Russell has a literary reputation, even though half of her published books are science-fiction.

I nominated The Sparrow because I feel that it has both literary and SF qualities in that single book. I hope it does not get excluded.

Just my two cents! :)

I'm excited about Oryx and Crake - I've been wanting to read that for awhile

I haven't read that series since junior high.

Works for me. I've read all three of that trilogy but it's been three decades ... so it will be like reading it for the first time. :)

I am going to overrule Perelandra, Jon and Kernos, but only because it is the second book of the trilogy, and we haven't done any of them in our group yet. I am going to add Out of the Silent Planet. Does that work for you two?

Kernos wrote: "Some other suggestions:

Perelandra by CS Lewis
Ilium or Hyperion by Dan Simmons
Brave New World by [author:Aldous H..."

I second Prelandra.

There is some fine work being nominated this month. I am starting to get really excited.

I second The Yiddish Policemen's Union by Michael Chabon. Sure...I already read it, but I am happy to re-read :)

A Clockwork Orange by Anthony Burgess. I don't think he ever did anything else that could be considered science fiction.

Another suggestion: Never Let Me Go by Kazuo Ishiguro.

Some other suggestions:

Perelandra by CS Lewis
Ilium or Hyperion by Dan Simmons
Brave New World by Aldous Huxley

Julia wrote: "Mary Doria Russell's first two books were science fiction, but since then she has written historical fiction...." It was the later that let her sneak onto the list. She's very borderline, but The Sparrow is one heck of a book, so if there is a significant call for her removal I am amenable.

Brad,

Mary Doria Russell's first two books were science fiction, but since then she has written historical fiction.

I nominate The Demolished Man by Alfred Bester. The Demolished Man

Carolyn wrote: "Some good ones already nominated! I'll add Concrete Island A Novel by J.G. Ballard." Seconded, I say.

I have updated the official nominees in message #14.

I want to preface the next thing I have to say with "I LOVE DICK" (yes...the joke is intentional. I know, I know) and The Man in the High Castle, but I am going to disqualify Philip K. Dick from this month's category for two reasons. One: while always telling wildly original tales, I am not convinced that Dick's body of work is "literary" enough to fit this particular category; and two: I was planning on adding Philip K. Dick as his very own category for the September theme (which I am betting has a very good chance of winning).

That should save anyone the trouble of seconding Dick.

Also, just to keep the list manageable, please refrain from nominating additional books from any authors who already have books on our official list. This hasn't happened yet, but I thought I would avoid the possibility. Whichever books is nominated and seconded first is the book that will make the list.

Another for Oryx and Crake.

Some good ones already nominated! I'll add Concrete Island A Novel by J.G. Ballard.