Tell me how it works out.

Nothing happened. What the hell?

Well, actually he's preparing to point out that there is no evidence that any prayers are ever answered, if it comes to that. No objective experiment to demonstrate the efficacy of prayer against e.g. diseases never return a result outside the normal statistical fluctuations expected for a null result. That is, they are actually NEGATIVE as often as positive -- people who are prayed for actually die MORE often of cancer in some studies (but within the statisical bounds of no effect, of course).

But I personally prefer the direct test. Pray for Jesus to manifest himself physically. Pray for the second coming! Jesus promised to return some 2000 years ago, immediately after he died, in the lifetime of his disciples. He lied, or rather perhaps he was mistaken. Either way, he's a bit late. As the infinite ruler of the Universe, the alpha and omega, he can certainly manifest himself to you effortlessly -- it is less effort for Jesus to appear in the flesh before you than it is for me to strike a single key on the keyboard, relative to infinite ability (mine is strictly finite). He has reportedly chosen in the past to appear before people in order to cement their faith -- Saul/Paul for example, on the road to Damascus (but to "hundreds of others, some of whom are now asleep" as well) if you consider the NT to be something other than a bunch of made-up stories. He can therefore manifest himself before you without inconveniencing himself in the least, and thereby surely save your soul, as until he does this you will have some doubt that just maybe everything you read in the NT is a pile of ca-ca, and any shred of doubt is enough to earn you damnation, is it not?

So go on, kneel down and pray "Jesus, sweet Jesus, please appear before me here in my room and let's talk over your Universe and you can reveal your Holy Plan to me. I've got a glass of water and a few crumbs of bread here -- we can have a feast after you change it to wine and whole loaves. I'll even spring for the cheese!"

Tell me how it works out.

rgb

He's also pointing out that there's NO way to prove that it's the Christian god and not Zeus 'answering' your prayers, so why waste your time believing it is?

ZoëNightshade7 wrote: "uh... how did we get onto the topic of Zeus? just wondering..."

He's trying to get across the point that there are different god's that people believe in and if you reject all of them except Jesus, then you are atheistic in a sense since you deny the existence of those other gods...which makes sense to me. :D Nathan was being sarcastic trying to get his point across because it wasn't understood the first time. Nathan and I have debated the existence of God, Christianity before.

But you were being pointless w/ me, so what was the point in being serious? there was none.

You clearly understand absolutely nothing. The point with my post was clear. You claim Jesus is the one true god, and I hypothetically claim Zeus is. For you to say, in such an asinine way, that you know it is Jesus who answers your prayers is just as trustworthy a claim as me saying it is Zeus that answers your prayers. You saying stupid things like:I read the BIBLE, not whatever the ancient greeks read. I pray to God I worship God, therefore i know it's God, not zues isn't evidence that your belief is correct. It is simply you saying what you believe. Great for you, but it doesn't actually mean anything. The ancient Greeks believed in Zeus, you believe in Jesus. That statement is relatively worthless and your belief in Jesus is just as invalid as their belief in Zeus unless you actually have evidence that your belief is better than theirs. Do you? Where is the evidence that your belief is correct and their belief in Zeus was wrong?

I pose the question again: Why do you believe in Jesus as opposed to believing in Zeus?

uh... how did we get onto the topic of Zeus? just wondering...

it is a pointless repsonse. But you were being pointless w/ me, so what was the point in being serious? there was none.

I know that it's Jesus cuz i pray to Jesus! I read the BIBLE, not whatever the ancient greeks read. I pray to God I worship God, therefore i know it's God, not zues.

yes, well

good luck w/ that.

Wow, that took a long time for you to come back with that pointless response. How impressive. Perhaps you should just answer the original question. How do you know it is Jesus whispering in your ear and not Zeus?

exept Christians have a desire to listen to and do what God wills them to do.

No, the Christian mind merely thinks it is listening to and doing what God wills it to do. The reality is that the Christian mind is merely listening to what the individual or members of the religious community wills it to do.

Nathan wrote: "Yes. I pray to Zeus. He is the one true god. He answers my prayers, but, of course, sometimes the answer is "no." I feel his presence and know it is him answering my prayers and comforting me."

yes, well

good luck w/ that.

I think that the Christian mind is very much like the non- Christian mind, exept Christians have a desire to listen to and do the will of God. This is just what I think.

D.G. wrote: "Koe wrote: "It's probably the same sort of mind that allows the cognitive dissonance needed to be an insulting jerk to a group of people and then to say "I am not trying to put anyone down."

Not..."

I think "real" Christians are called "True Believers", but I"m not sure...

As for whether or not things are immoral or obscene...i leave that up to personal preference myself! But, guess that makes me a weird Christian! LOL

Oh, dear, and the next thing you know you'll be rejecting the Bible, where all of that sort of thing is spelled out. Isn't it? Clearly God cares, very much, or he wouldn't have done the whole Eden thing...:-)

However, you did miss the part about how the Universe cannot have a creator. Logically, a priori, it can't. The word "Universe" means "everything that exists". This concept cannot have a prior, at least not one that actually exists.

rgb

That would be because I'm 27...being older helps! :D

And I agree, ,RGB. It does create a sense of wonder, but it also creates a sense of awe(worship) for me to know that the creator of the universe has made somethings so complex that we are still trying to figure out how they work. It's nice to know some are realist and realize we can't learn everything in the time that we are given here on earth.


As for whether or not things are immoral or obscene...i leave that up to personal preference myself! But, guess that makes me a weird Christian! LOL

And I believe if I remember correctly that RGB is a diest not and athiest.

You have an excellent memory indeed, although Nathan and I don't differ by much in our overall conclusions, I don't think. A fairly simple argument based on information theory suffices to demonstrate that if God exists, God must be more or less identical with the Universe itself or fail in one or more of the qualities we ascribe in a fairly standard model of God. If God = Universe then God is indeed omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent. While God as Universe isn't a creator -- a thing cannot sensibly be said to "create" itself -- God as Universe is uncaused cause.

There are a few sticky issues that prevent this from being "just" a trivial redefinition of Universe. One is omnibenevolence -- but I'm pretty comfortable giving that one up, or taking the larger view of it. Empirically, the Universe is not an omnibenevolent place, it is rather objective and disinterested. The second is sentience itself. Omnibenevolent or not, to call the Universe "God" in any reasonable model requires the Universe to be -- in some sense or another -- self-aware.

This is a tough question. We are certain that at least parts of the Universe are self-aware, so awareness exists. The awareness of the whole is surely no less than the awareness of the most aware of its parts, so your awareness and my awareness -- our consciousness -- are both parts of the awareness of the Universe. The big question that remains is whether or not the complexity of the Universe as a whole (where that whole is very plausibly enormously larger than just the already enormous part that we can "see") can support any sort of global "overmind".

I view this as a very, very large problem, an open question, in both physics and mathematics, a question that we cannot yet begin to properly address because we lack a satisfactory theory of our own mundane awarenesses, because information theory is still a young discipline, because we don't yet possess a consistent and approximately complete physical description of that which we can directly observe. In one sense I am the Universe looking at itself already -- the big question is does the Universe possess the capability of looking back?

I think that the basic difference between Nathan and myself on this issue is that he would say that there is no evidence that suggests that it does. I, on the other hand, am leery of just what constitutes "evidence" in the sense of normal inference with regard to Universal questions, and besides, I'm a theorist. I prefer to leave the question open and consider the hypothesis that it does quite plausible, pending the development of better mathematical models that might illuminate the question or empirical evidence that bears on those models.

Either way, the God I think is at least not implausible to postulate bears little resemblance to the anthropomorphic theistic Gods of any scriptural religion. It is more of a Heinleinian view of "thou art God" -- that which groks is God, as all awareness is the Universe looking at, ultimately, itself. Perhaps it borrows a bit from Hindu theology without accepting any of the dogma. It is very much what Einstein was referring to when he described the religious feeling one gets studying the Universe.

Awe, not worship, and not awe as in fear, awe as in wonder. What an amazing place, this spacetime in which I find myself learning about spacetime, this Universe that is my experience of being! How foolish to think that my limited range of vision in space and in time will suffice to learn all of its secrets! How beautiful and structured and functional it is, where systematic study has revealed some of them.

In the end, it doesn't really matter as to whether or not it is "alive" or "self-aware". It's pretty awesome, either way.

And utterly uncaring about things like whether or not a naked female breast is or isn't obscene, whether or not it is immoral to kill one's neighbors and steal all of their goods and possessions. A Universe that at any instant might reach out with a gamma ray burst and extinguish all life on the planet as casually as you or I might chop a worm in half with a shovel when digging in a garden. Not as punishment or some sort of judgement for the sinful worm, but just because it happened to be in the way of an unseeing and uncaring shovel on its way to dig a garden quite independent on whether or not it was a good worm, or a bad worm...

rgb

I certainly have. I've missed the one Christian in this group that is capable of having an actual debate and not merely resorting to, "It's what I believe, so just leave me alone! WAHHHHH!"

Nathan wrote: "Hey Jennifer. Nice to have you back. ;-)"

Thanks! You know you've missed me! LOL ;-)

Hey Jennifer. Nice to have you back. ;-)

Nathan wrote: "Yes. I pray to Zeus. He is the one true god. He answers my prayers, but, of course, sometimes the answer is "no." I feel his presence and know it is him answering my prayers and comforting me."

Hehehehe...THAT made me giggle!

I'm just gonna interject something for the poor person on here whom you are having fun with. Yahweh is another name for God. The Jews use it alot, but it's also mentions in the Bible several times. If you don't know that, then you need to go back and read your bible before you start arguing with Nathan and RGB. And I believe if I remember correctly that RGB is a diest not and athiest. :D

Yes. I pray to Zeus. He is the one true god. He answers my prayers, but, of course, sometimes the answer is "no." I feel his presence and know it is him answering my prayers and comforting me.

Can you describe this personal relationship with Zeus? How are you related?

I don't need to have. I have a personal relationship with Zeus. That's how I know that when you pray, you are experiencing his presence and not the presence of Jesus.

I mean, did you go to school and study greek mythology?

It's a question. answer it. Are you or are you not a expert on zeus?

Yes, I am an expert on Zeus.

crazy MN Viking fan who's also a STALKER!! ~leah~ wrote: "It's a question. answer it. Are you or are you not a expert on zeus?"

CMN, we are all experts on Zeus. We have both gone to elementary school, high school, college, and in my case (and I think in Nathan's as well) graduate school. We have studied Greek mythology, Roman mythology, Norse mythology, Egyptian mythology, in my case (I grew up in India) Hindu and Buddhist mythology, and of course we were both raised on a hefty mandatory dose of Judeo-Christian mythology!

You, on the other hand, don't even recognize the Old Testament name for God.

Let me rephrase my original question, since it is so very simple. WHY do you believe in Yahweh (one of the most common names of the God that talked to Moses and gave him the ten commandments, was the legendary "father" of Jesus, parted the Red Sea, flooded the earth, created the Universe in six days and took a one day holiday, etc.) on the basis of ancient mythological manuscripts that are in complete and utter conflict with the discoveries of science and which contain record numerous events that violate common sense and the historical record, and yet reject belief in, say, Zeus on the basis of ancient mythological manuscripts in compete and utter conflict etc. or Brahma on the basis of ancient mythological manuscripts ditto?

There is no evidence for Zeus. There is no evidence for Brahma. There is no evidence for Yahweh. There is no evidence for Jesus. There is no evidence for Odin. There is no evidence for Set or Ra. There is no evidence for Allah. There is no evidence for -- do you get the idea, yet?

Here. Try this experiment. Ask Jesus to appear before you, in person, and share a cup of tea and explain his plan for you and the Universe to you personally. He's an infinite, all powerful being. He could therefore easily grant your request. In the New Testament he promises to grant this specific kind of request at least four or five times, not to mention giving anybody who really believes in him arcane powers to heal the sick, raise the dead, move mountains, speak in tongues, be immune to poison, and handle serpents. If your faith were the size of a mustard seed (to more or less quote him) you could bring about world peace and cure global HIV just by asking.

So ask. Tell us how it comes out. While Jesus is at it, please ask him to fix the economy, miraculously heal all of the innocents on the planet born with Down's syndrome, spina bifida, muscular dystrophy, not to mention eliminate ebola, malaria, cholera, and the common cold.

Then you can try the same experiment with Allah, Jehovah, Odin, Zeus, etc. See which of them grants your prayers, whenever you pray for something that doesn't "just happen" anyway! That is, no fair praying for rain tomorrow and pretending to be surprised by the "miracle" that it rains. You have to pray for something extraordinarily unlikely to happen (and unless you are selfish, something beneficial to an enormous number of the innocents on this planet who are afflicted with inhuman tortures through the direct will of God, diseases without number, natural disasters, old age, cancer, starvation, war, poverty, neglect, and abuse). It also needs to be a miracle that will really obviously be "a miracle". Not Osama Bin Laden is captured in the mountains of Pakistan (hardly surprising), but Osama Bin Laden is converted miraculously to Christianity, repents, and turns himself in full of sorrow for his sins that he may be tried and convicted, an Osama who spends his last months on earth trying to convert his Muslim colleagues to Christianity. Although even that is more likely than every Down's syndrome child on the planet miraculously having their trisomy of chromosome 13 disappear and all of their symptoms reverse to become completely normal. Or what the heck, try your hand at raising the dead. Peter managed it; why can't you? Just make sure you pick somebody who is really dead -- dead for years, buried or cremated. I've got a list if you haven't lived long enough to have friends or relatives who have died.

Or hey, go for the cheese. Ask Jesus to return for the long awaited second coming. After all, he promised to come in his own disciples' lifetime! Kind of missed the date on that one, but hey, it is never too late. And he did promise to do whatever you asked him nicely to do! So ask him to come back and finish what he started and explain it all to us now, with TV and the printing press and modern science around to verify his supernatural miracles.

rgb

It's a question. answer it. Are you or are you not a expert on zeus?

Oh, so your magically a expert on zeus now are you?

So should I take your avoidance of the question as confirmation that you can't answer the question?

Oh, so your magically a expert on zeus now are you?

because i was praying to Jesus not zeus!

So what? Everyone knows that Zeus is god and that he cares little whether you mistakenly call him Jesus or Allah or Yahweh. Zeus simply wants you to pray to him. If you do, he will make his presence known. That is what he did to you. How do you know this is not the truth?

because i was praying to Jesus not zeus!

drunk drivers could kill some people. not spelling sumthin rite isnt putting any1s life in danger

It's an apt analogy even if you aren't smart enough to understand why.

i already answered the question in message 127

No, you didn't. You said that you believe in god because you felt his presence (lame). That doesn't explain how you know the presence is that of Jesus and not Zeus. So why do you believe in Jesus over Zeus?

i already answered the question in message 127

drunk drivers could kill some people. not spelling sumthin rite isnt putting any1s life in danger

Still waiting for an answer to the question.

ur overreacting...its just spelling...we're still communicating

That's like a saying a man who drives home drunk, but doesn't get into an accident hasn't done anything wrong and should do it again. We have been communicating relatively well, but we could nearly eliminate any potential confusion if you followed grammatical and spelling rules.

ok, we are obviously making no progress whatsoever by arguing about this. We are simply wasting our time and energy.

No, you are simply avoiding answering both questions. I really only want you to answer this one, which you still have not:

Why do you believe in the Christian God instead of Zeus or Mithra or Allah?

Nathan wrote: "i belive in God

So Zeus is your god? I was unaware of that. If you don't believe in Zeus, you are atheistic when it comes to belief in Zeus. If you aren't atheistic when it comes to Zeus, then ..."

ok, we are obviously making no progress whatsoever by arguing about this. We are simply wasting our time and energy.

Nathan wrote: "I just text tlk online. Why do you make such a big deal of it?

It is a big deal. The ability to communicate with others is extremely important. It doesn't take any effort to spell things correct..."

ur overreacting...its just spelling...we're still communicating

I just text tlk online. Why do you make such a big deal of it?

It is a big deal. The ability to communicate with others is extremely important. It doesn't take any effort to spell things correctly and use proper grammar if, that is, you actually know how to do it. So why would you choose to communicate in a manner where certain points may not be understood?

i belive in God

So Zeus is your god? I was unaware of that. If you don't believe in Zeus, you are atheistic when it comes to belief in Zeus. If you aren't atheistic when it comes to Zeus, then you believe Zeus is god. Is that the case? Which is it?

Nathan wrote: "yes, i can spell. I choose not to.

What a dumb choice. What would be the purpose of this dumb choice?

a) went back and edited ur posts and changed 'aithist' to aithisetic'

No, I did not. All t..."

um, i spell correctly in real life. I just text tlk online. Why do you make such a big deal of it?

who is Yahweh?

Holy crap.

Also, don't forget to atheist your bed every morning!"

um..what?

Of course you are. You are an atheist when it comes to Zeus

no cuz an aithiest is sumi who dusnt belive in ANY god

i belive in God

I believe in God cuz i've felt His presence. I've seen the work he's done in my--and other's- life.

You still didn't answer the question. Read the question again nice and slow. The question isn't: Why do you believe in a god at all?

The question is: Why do you believe in the Christian God instead of Zeus or Mithra or Allah?

I belive in God, so i'm not aithiest whatsoever.

Of course you are. You are an atheist when it comes to Zeus.

Also, don't forget to atheist your bed every morning!

who is Yahweh?

I believe in God cuz i've felt His presence. I've seen the work he's done in my--and other's- life.

Why do you keep dodging the question? Answer it.

"why do you reject belief in Zeus but accept belief in Jehovah, or Yahweh, or The Lord, or whatever name you wish to give your supreme being?"

Ok, an aithiest is sum1 who doesn't belive in ANY god or goddess

I belive in God, so i'm not aithiest whatsoever.

yes, i can spell. I choose not to.

What a dumb choice. What would be the purpose of this dumb choice?

a) went back and edited ur posts and changed 'aithist' to aithisetic'

No, I did not. All those posts are as they originally appeared. So please point out how, if I supposedly changed them, I could have made atheist a verb. Did I say, "So then he atheist me right in the face"? Or perhaps it was "Atheist slowly so you don't trip." Or was it "When you atheist, always make sure to wash your hands"? Which was it?

nathan--

yes, i can spell. I choose not to.

a verb is an action word. Duh.

Plus, you've a) went back and edited ur posts and changed 'aithist' to aithisetic'
or b) i've made a mistake...I'm human too

Jesus, can you spell? Also, have you any clue what a verb is? I have never used atheist as a verb. I have used atheist (which is a noun) and atheistic (which is an adjective). Point out to me where I have done so. You cannot.

You are atheistic concerning Zeus. You are an atheist when it comes to Zeus. You do not believe in Zeus. Therefore, concerning Zeus, you are an atheist. It really is quite simple.

Whether we agree on that or not is irrelevant (especially since it is clear that I am right). What you should, however, be answering is the question posed by rgb.

"why do you reject belief in Zeus but accept belief in Jehovah, or Yahweh, or The Lord, or whatever name you wish to give your supreme being?"

I'd like an answer.

nathan--

an athiest, i know, is a noun. I know that. But you keep using it like a verb. Stop that. I cannnot be aithiest toward zeus becuz i believe that God is the one and only God. Therefore, i am monotheistic. So, how can i believe in zues? An aithiest believes theres is no God. I am not aithiest cuz i believe there is God.