Late to the party:
I've never noticed this before, but I'm not really a fan of any time travel story.

Perhaps one exception: I don't like much Heinlein, but —All You Zombies— is a perfect little short story. It shows glimmers of the freaque that Heinlein was to fully become some twenty years later.

Could almost be an O. Henry story, if he'd written stories about incestuous sex among time traveling hermaphrodites. Er, sorry: time traveling intersexed individuals.

Outside of books, the Harlan Ellison Star Trek episode mentioned previously and the first Back to the Future both rock. And the latter had the frisson of potentially incestuous time travel! I'm sure that can somehow be blamed on Heinlein.

Back to the Future has been one of my favorite movies for a long time. I also really enjoyed the last season of LOST, though the time travel was actually really confusing.

"Everywhere Men are born free and everwhere he is in chains." Except that these chains, or walls, or whatever metaphor you prefer, provide a much-needed definition to our lives. Complete freedom is not an unmitigated blessing.

Lara Amber, she obviously did want to explode. That's part of why formalities are needed. They lubricate the social gears, allow people to skirt the dangerous situations. Used to be, if a woman was introduced as Mrs. Jane Doe, you'd know not to mention Mr. Doe. You might drop a reference to your own kids (They're usually great fodder. Folks love to talk about their own.) & if she picked up on it, fine. If not, move on.

A good introduction lets both parties know what they have in common or should avoid - subtly. Unfortunately, I don't do subtle very well & had no idea I had man-hating, frustrated witch to deal with. Could have happened to anyone, but it made me more aware of how important formalities were.

I used to dislike them as much as anyone, possibly more than most because I had to suffer through them for years as a child, got free of them for a decade & then got back to needing them. (I'm free again!) Like escaping a cage & going back in. I just came to realize the cage was also a bunker.

Jim,

It sounds like she just had a chip on her shoulder. I don't think things would have been improved if there was a social signal that lead you to say "So do you and your partner/wife have any kids?" She still would have gone off about males & keeping them from adopting. Heck she could have been married, sterile, and burst into tears at the question. (Why I never, ever ask about kids.)

In Colorado our small talk is: weather, Broncos & other pro sports, skiing, and golf.

Lara Amber

I guess most of you don't go to large, formal parties filled with touchy strangers. I rarely do any more either, thank goodness. They can be horribly boring when you'd rather not offend through ignorance, are somewhat socially inept & have no formal cues. That's why I say there is a need for new formalities. The old formalities weren't fair & have very little to do with social realities now, but they did give strangers a common point of reference to make conversation without giving offense. You can only talk about the party, the weather & the traffic for so long & so many times before you want to go insane or become oblivious.

Of course, I've been burnt. Ms. Jane Doe was introduced to me at a party & had a gold band on her left ring finger. I asked if she & her husband had children. Innocent ice breaker. Turned out Mr. Doe was Ms. Smith (who I did know something about) & they'd been fighting for adoption rights for years & she was pretty militant about how heterosexual males (me) had made her life miserable. She let me know I'd offended the partner of an important client.

If there had been a formality to let me know that Ms. Doe was paired with Ms. Smith, the situation never would have occurred & a lot of people would have been happier. There wasn't, she was a bitch & it was fairly embarrassing for not just me, but my bosses & her partner. I don't think she was embarrassed at all. <shrug>

Thank you, Chris, for those suggestions. But I don't think they are the same. They are titles defining the person's own role as a husband. The Time Traveler's Wife or the Astronaut's Wife, is defining a woman based on the *job* or *role* of her husband. "An Ideal Wife" wouldn't bother me because it's about her being a wife, not that she's defined by his job. I'd like to see "the Ambassador's Husband" or "The Screenwriter's Husband." That would be comparable to me.

As for not reading a book because of it's title, I admit it's silly in some ways but with hundreds of books on my to-read list, I have to be arbitrary at some point. We all are when we glance at covers that don't sound appealing or genres we don't tend to read, etc. And there's been such a spate of them recently it's my own personal stand. Of course, if I find out more about it and it sounds really appealing and I haven't something else I'd rather read, I wouldn't sit there contemplating my navel rather than read it. I'm just not going out of my way to read it. Of course, I am aware the author probably didn't have anything to do with the title and my pathetic act of resistance will accomplish nothing. It just makes me feel better.

Jon, good for you. In my profession I, too, was often mistaken for male because of my last name. It helped that for years another person (a male) in the building had the same name first and last name as I minus 3 letters.

Henrik,
Nowadays most women in the US do use their own first and last name with "Mrs." and aren't aware of the formal/official way to use it but in the 50's a woman was definitely Mr. and Mrs. John L. Smith or whatever here.

Lara,

Exactly!

Bottom line is...it would be a shame to miss the chance to read The Time Traveler's Wife simply because of the title.

Now, if the content bothers you, then skip it. But if not, it's a very good book. Just ignore the title. Or put a post-it note on top of it like I do with my ugly 'bosom-ripper' book covers. ;-)

Also, I seem to remember that authors don't always get to pick their titles, sometimes that comes from what the publisher believes will best "sell". (I may be wrong about that.)

Lara Amber wrote: "In formal settings women are still known by his first name and his last name. . . ."

Doesn't that depend on what country or culture you're from? I live in Denmark and perhaps excepting the close circle of the Royal House (which, incidentally, I am not that familiar with;-)) a married woman is introduced as "Mrs. Own Name + Last Name."

Even more, in Denmark it is now custome for the female to retain her original surname, so if she wants it changed to, say, the husband's, she must file a form to do so; same goes with the male. (My wife and I decided to combine and take both our surnames, both of which are rather unusual here in Denmark.)

When it comes to fiction I personally think it is a matter of how important any given formality is to the story. If it's important somehow, I don't have a problem with it.

Imagine how much fun I have when I sign my name "Jon M. Moss" or introduce myself as "Jon Moss" - my first name sounds just like "John" and I deliberately refuse to use any title designation (no Mrs. or Ms.). I've worked twenty years in a male-dominated field and survived by being confusing and obscure and very smart. :)

I admit I don't like any naming convention that takes away the name of the person, which is a great deal of a person's identity. Think about it, a woman is named Susan White by her parents, but when she is married suddenly she is Mrs. John Apple, and disappears into the identity of her husband. In fact if Mr. Apple divorced her and remarried, someone else becomes Mrs. John Apple. She's interchangeable. He will always be John Apple. She doesn't even get to be always Susan, she goes from Miss Susan White to Mrs. John Apple. I think the convention should be changed so no matter what happens with last names (he takes hers, she takes his, they keep their own, they hyphenate) everyone keeps their own first names.

I'm not even sure why naming conventions need to give the information on divorced, widowed, married, single (and notice it only applies to women). Isn't that a little presumptuous that we must offer up that information off the bat? The person you're being introduced also doesn't know if you have kids, own or rent, where you work, or your religious beliefs, but they better know if you're married upon introduction! Does our copy machine vendor really need to know whether or not I'm married? It doesn't matter for our business relationship. But, he knows upon introduction (Mrs.) yet I have no idea for him (Mr.).

Lara Amber

Jim wrote: "The trouble is, how do you pack that into "This is Mr. Smith & Mrs. Jones" during an introduction?"

Why would you want to?

My personal annoyance with some of the old formalities is that it is so cookie cutter. Happily in our modern age we are finally acknowledging the fact that people, professions, families, and relationships are varied and unique and that there is nothing wrong with this.

So, why would you want to squish a life, a relationship, and experience simply to it make things easier for a brief introduction? In fact, why would it even be necessary to convey this information?

In regards to titles such as 'The Time Travelers Wife', there is a difference between the woman being defined by her husband and the fact that a husband's profession may define the types of stresses she deals with that are somewhat unique from others.

The reason I don't like it, is why should I give up a name I have used all my life 40+ years and start with another. Names are part of who we are.

As for introductions, how about I'd like you to meet my friends Bob and Jane? Or my boss and his wife - Richard and Jennifer? Why does their role matter in the beginning. That is why we get to know each other. And why should I care about their status as a couple until I get to know them? Or it is relevant like if I were their kids' teacher?

It is like Ms. vs. Miss or Mrs. The reason it was popular in the first place is because who cares what a person's marital status is unless you are planning on dating them.

I dislike those outdated rules who cares if Mr. is first or last except maybe someone insecure? And as for a divorce, nobody's business. I would send an invitation addressed to Robert and Jane Smith or John Davis and Elizabeth Lewis. Or Linda Peters, Jeff Martin and family.

I guess I am saying that I see no need for these formalities.

As for roles, a role should be based on what a person does. Not by what they do as a result of their relationship to another person.

The imposition of a convention is an act of authority. It may make the actor "comfortable" (otherwise, you could argue, the effort would be spared) but it can just as easily make the acted-upon uncomfortable.

For me, social convention is about the mindless claim to privilege (sometimes atavistic, and often unwarranted). As a white male, I may be loath to abandon my privilege, but I can't rationally defend it.

I don't think anyone should sneer at old formalities. Come up with better ones. I've known women who kept their own last name or hyphenated their names &/or that of their kids. I can understand it, but I think it is often counter productive, like so much of the forced informality that we have today.

There is comfort in formal names & conventions in social functions. Used to be, a quick introduction gave reams of information. Now, when a couple is introduced by their full names & they're different, their status as a couple is in question & many people feel awkward addressing questions to them lest they be less than PC. Formalities lubricate social situations & give strangers a common, safe ground to communicate from. We need some new formalities to fill the void & let everyone know each others status.

It used to be easier with men as the usual head of household & professional in the nuclear family. Now there are homosexual marriages, many women are professionals & 'housewife' is as demanding as most other professions. House husbands aren't uncommon. Working from home, while taking care of part of the household chores, is often as productive as a full day's work at the office or factory. The trouble is, how do you pack that into "This is Mr. Smith & Mrs. Jones" during an introduction?

Marc wrote: "None of which makes it a good reason to reject an otherwise good book."

Good point, I don't think you could seriously accuse Niffeneger of being callus toward the marginalized. The problem with irony is that you need to be careful setting it up. I found it interesting that, most of the time, the Time Traveler's Wife, wasn't.

None of which makes it a good reason to reject an otherwise good book.

In formal settings women are still known by his first name and his last name. If you see her first name, his last name, technically it means the recipient is divorced.

The dumb rules you learn when addressing wedding announcements.

Lara Amber

Is naming the claim of ownership, or just a silly atavism? I can remember when women were formally known by their husband's first name, as well as his last (I saw my mother's name wholey subsumed on more than one formal announcement). The more interesting question concerns the extent to which language influences the social construct of gender.

Kelly,

Sometimes a woman is defined by her relationship to a man. Being a "Submarine Officer's Wife" defined a great deal of my mother. Our constant moving, his long deployments, the expectations of an officer's wife (especially a senior officer's wife) had a major impact on who she was.

1. My mother was pregnant her senior year of college and was not allowed to take her lab classes (botany major) required for graduation. Because dad went active duty the next year and they immediately moved, she never graduated.
2. Because dad was frequently at sea, mom took over all the family finances, does the taxes, has power of attorney, etc.
3. Because of the expectation of senior officer wives being there for the junior officer wives and enlisted wives, she was heavily involved in the Navy Officer Wives Club and the Submarine Officer Wives Club. Later she was president of the Submarine Officer Wives Club in San Diego and took it from a club to a non-profit. My mom was always checking on younger/new wives, making sure they were handling the stress okay, didn't need anything, inviting them over so they didn't get lonely or overwhelmed.
4. Since we moved a lot, mom saw a great deal of the country. The moving and responsibilities of being a Navy wife made it difficult for her to go back to school, or consider working, so she stayed "at home" but heavily involved in organizations (she's also a singer, so lots of chorale societies too).

My mom was engaged to someone else when she met my dad (mom & dad were college lab partners and he stole her away). She would have been a completely different person if she had married the first guy and probably would have never moved out of Ohio.

Lara Amber

An Ideal Husband
The Perfect Husband
The Good Husband of Zebra Drive
Dona Flor and Her Two Husbands
Her Husband Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath - A Marriage
Navy Husband

I am currently boycotting any book whose title is about a woman as defined by her relationship to a man (the blah blahs' wife, the blah blahs' daughter). Do you ever hear the blah blah's husband? Sorry. It's just my latest pet peeve.

Ben wrote: "I really enjoyed The Time Machine and (to a lesser degree) the "sequel" The Time Ships. I was also quite surprised at how much I enjoyed [book:The Time Traveler's Wife|140..."
I wanted to read the sequel to the Time Machine. I should go read that. Right now I am reading The Time Traveler's Wife for summer english homework. That's good to see that someone who enjoyed The Time Machine liked this book I am about to read.

Did anyone think The Time Machine was Awesome?
I personally fell in love with that book. It was awesome! I read it when I was 10. The orange-colored cover was interesting and the book wasn't very thick.

Glad yoiu liked them they are a great romp

Kevin

You're welcome. They're fun.

Marc
http://marcvunkannon.blogspot.com/

Thanks for the recommendation Kevinalbee and Marc for Leo Frankowski's Conrad Stargard books! I just got the first one and am enjoying very much so far.

Somewhere in Time always makes me cry.

Lara Amber

Doomsday Book by Connie Willis, The Time Traveler's Wife by Audrey Niffenegger and Diana Gabaldon's Outlander Outlander series are all excellent. I wasn't too impressed by neither The Time Machine nor To Say Nothing of the Dog though.

On TV, Dr. Who is the best time travel show. In movies, I liked the "Back to the Future" trilogy, it was funny and Science Fiction at the same time.

In literature .... I agree with Stefan (hi!), Kage Baker's "The Company" Series (beginning with In the Garden of Iden) is the best one out there. Connie Willis's Doomsday Book is excellent also.

Time and Again is popular. I didn't love it but it did stick with me. The Man Who Folded Himself is excellent. Connie Willis's time travel series is definitely my fave, though.

Episodes of Red Dwarf involved time travel and I find them hilarious. Of course, every SF show seems to have its time traveling episodes.

Thanks Mark, Frankowski is correct. Apparently my memory for names is as bad as my spelling.

;p

I discovered that after I'd sen and loved Groundhog Day. It seemed like a glut of time travel shows for a while.

I like Replay by Ken Grimwood. It has some issues and drags a little towards the end, but the first part of the book was delightful.

Leo Frankowski's Conrad Stargard books.

I love the frankowiz novels. I cant recall the titles but there is a whole series.

A soviet citizen Engineer, is accedentally sent back in time to Poland 10 years before the mongals invade. And introduces modern tech Ideas

Very interesting series

I have to jump in to second the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon (btw, I don't consider this solely romance...it spans many genres).

Also, Kage Baker's "The Company" series is superb!

I also really enjoy Suzanne Frank's time travel series. The first one is "Reflections on the Nile". For those who feel uncomfortable about romance, there is a lot in these. But the various settings and eras in the ancient world are fascinating. (Egypt, Phoenicia, Atlantis, Crete, Minoa, Babylon, Ur, ancient Jerusalem etc.)

And for romance - A Knight in Shining Armor by Jude Deveraux

Also for kids shows - land of the Lost & Voyagers

Jim: A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court (by Mark Twain) of often overlooked and it has been a favorite of mine for years.

For Tv, I am a confirmed Dr. Who fan!

And, City on the Edge of Forever was a classic Star Trek episode!

The Hemingway Hoax by Joe Haldeman was fun, too.

A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court is one of my favorites.

"By His Bootstraps" by Heinlein is a great short story.

Hello,

Books...

The Time Machine and Stephen Baxter's sequel The Time Ships, Gregory Benford's Timescape, Ken Grimwood's Replay. Also Asimov's End of Eternity, and various famous short stories by Heinlein such as All You Zombies. And a couple of Niven short stories: Singularities Make Me Nervous, Rotating Cylinders and the Possibly of Global Causality Violation (marvelous title), as well as Niven's fantasy series that includes Flight of the Horse

TV... The City on the Edge of Forever. There are lots of others, but for me that one stands out.

Film...

Primer is an extraordinary film. Tiny budget, incredibly well thought out. And the first Terminator movie is a nicely consistent time travel story. A lot of films seem to violate their own premise by the end, but both of those are self consistent. Also, The Final Countdown.

Sarah Pi wrote: "I also loved Tim Powers'
The Anubis Gates."

This is on my list - just have to find time to squeeze it in. Looks great!

Stefan - I agree. I recently read In the Garden of Iden and thought it was excellent. Looking forward to reading more of the series.

I also loved Tim Powers'
The Anubis Gates.

Since no one has mentioned it yet in this thread, I'll put a good word in for the amazing Company series by Kage Baker. The first book is In the Garden of Iden and focuses on Mendoza, a young girl rescued from the Spanish Inquisition in the 16th century, turned into an immortal cyborg by a 24th century company called Dr. Zeus Incorporated, trained as a botanist, and sent on missions throughout the ages to rescue rare plants from extinction. The series goes on to focus on various historical missions by Mendoza and other Company operatives, and features a large plot arc about the origin and eventual fate of the Company. It's an excellent series and highly recommended.

Quantum Leap and Dr. Who I love. Journeyman was okay. Back to the Futures were cute. The Butterfly Effect was interesting. The story - "A Distant Sound of Thunder" by Ray BRadbury and Yes I love the City on the edge of Forever. Star Trek 4 was silly but fun.

Brad wrote: "My all-time favourite time travel story is TOS: City on the Edge of Forever. Harlan Ellison wrote the original, much cut script, which Roddenberry cut into a manageable teleplay, but damn I love th..."

Oh, I love that episode/story! In fact, I just added to my Instant Play Queue yesterday the entire first season of TOS just so I could watch that episode in particular! :)

My all-time favourite time travel story is TOS: City on the Edge of Forever. Harlan Ellison wrote the original, much cut script, which Roddenberry cut into a manageable teleplay, but damn I love that story. There are some other wonderful stories mentioned by others on here too. Slaughterhouse-Five and The Time Machine are a couple of faves of mine too.

Libby: when I was 18-19 I worked at a bookstore in our town's big shopping mall, and the manager put all of her employees in charge of a section. We were in charge of maintenance and ordering suggestions, and we were the go to employee for questions. I wanted Sci-Fi/Fantasy. I got Romance. But the big thing was that she demanded that we read at least one book from our section every two weeks. I read much crap, but I also found some pretty cool stories that I'd never have read any other way [e.g. book:A Woman of Substance]. I also developed a taste for erotica at the crucial age for developing such taste. If I ever bump into Tina again, I'm going to have to thank her, I think.

Libby,

This should make you feel better. Romance is the biggest selling category in paperbacks (55% of paperback books sold, over a $1.2B in annual sales) and several major publishing houses depend on romance sales to subsidize all their other departments. (Oh, and 22% of readers are male.) So when you buy romance novels you're helping pay for publishing copies of I, Robot.

Lara Amber

Lara Amber wrote: "Libby,

Don't fear the romance section of the store. There are some great books over there.

Lara Amber"

I've always thought it's funny that I proudly visit SciFi / Fantasy but avoid romance like the plague - guess it's because I'm a single woman. I don't mind if people think I'm an odd duck Trekkie but Heaven forbid they think I'm a lonely female ;-)