Kay said: ""One of the THEMES of Tigana was how tyranny and oppression filter their way down to even the most intimate acts of human interaction. If you look closely at the sex in the book, you'll see that there is no 'healthy' or nurturing sex until the Ember Night - which is the 'turn' of the book. This was entirely deliberate, inspired by some musings of Milan Kundera in 'Laughable Loves'...."

Interesting. I'd thought of Kundera once when you brought up the theme Libby, and then something drove that out of my head. I can totally see that connection even more now.

Looks like our discussion was on the right track - from an interview w/ the author

"One of the THEMES of Tigana was how tyranny and oppression filter their way down to even the most intimate acts of human interaction. If you look closely at the sex in the book, you'll see that there is no 'healthy' or nurturing sex until the Ember Night - which is the 'turn' of the book. This was entirely deliberate, inspired by some musings of Milan Kundera in 'Laughable Loves'."

http://www.brightweavings.com/ggkswords/...

Thanks to Brooke for posting link

Libby, I agree with you that Kay is trying to use the sexuality in the book to explore conquest. After your initial post, I thought of at least two instances that make a little more sense if viewed this way.

One is the remarks Devin is constantly making about being the target of male pickup artists. Someone else said in another thread that it made Devin seem full of himself. Perhaps instead Kay was aiming to explore the theme of sexuality after conquest. In this case, it was kind of ham-handed and ineffective.

The other instance I had trouble with is the relationship between Dianora and Baerd. My initial feelings on reading this were conflicted - I generally don't like themes of incest but am tolerant if they seem to serve a function. In this case, it initially confused me - it was a sympathetic portrayal, I was not overly disturbed by it - and yet, I didn't feel that it was necessary. I had decided that I probably would have left it out, if I were the author. It didn't seem to point out any personality characteristics of either Dianora or Baerd that could not have been handled another way. But after reading the comments in this thread, I can understand why it was included.

Jensownzoo wrote: "Brad, it was a little late in the story to be terribly effective at this, but I think that Alessan's visit to his mother was fairly vital to demonstrate a reason why bringing back Tigana was so imp..."

That's probably true, Jensownzoo, but I think it probably could have been achieved with Devin's sympathy too, maybe in a discussion with someone else.

I do have to say that for all my complaining I really love this book, and...honestly...as much as I wish some things were different, I doubt it could make me love the story more, and it would probably hurt it. Even scenes like Alessan and his mother.

Jensownzoo wrote: "Do we have any pre-conquest experiences which which to compare them? I don't remember any and it seems like that should be a vital component of this kind of demonstration. I think it would have been a really good demonstration otherwise...."

There isn't a clear and obvious demonstration that I could find, but there was one pre-conquest bit of healthiness that comes together subtly: Saevar and his wife, the parents of Baerd and Dianora. I get a sense from the thoughts of the children and the Prologue that theirs was a conventionally healthy relationship. But that takes some searching for scattered elements to uncover.

Brad, it was a little late in the story to be terribly effective at this, but I think that Alessan's visit to his mother was fairly vital to demonstrate a reason why bringing back Tigana was so important to him as well as giving the reader an extra dollop of sympathy for him for having such a mother...

Libby wrote: "secondly, as I previously discussed, to demonstrate the effect of conquest and occupation on the psyche and how that manifests in physical behavior ..."

Do we have any pre-conquest experiences which which to compare them? I don't remember any and it seems like that should be a vital component of this kind of demonstration. I think it would have been a really good demonstration otherwise.

Zen wrote: "Jensownzoo wrote: "...but not the kind that is most familiar to the most amount of people in the "real world". "

If I may, very politely and non-offensively, point out that this viewpoint makes BI..."

Arrgh! I simply am not expressing myself very well. Maybe I just don't have the vocabulary that I am reaching for, or perhaps it is just simply that sexuality is just too big and varied a topic to be able to discuss using generalities?

Libby wrote: "secondly, as I previously discussed, to demonstrate the effect of conquest and occupation on the psyche and how that manifests in physical behavior. At first I thought the sexual content of the book was just gratuitous but as I read on it seemed to tie into the various themes...."

This remains my favourite point in this thread, and the most insightful. In fact, it makes me wish that Kay had taken more time with this and maybe dropped some of the more repetitive, action oriented stuff. I would like to have seen more of Alessan and Catriana than, say, Alessan going to argue with his mother and Devin taking out the spy. We could have heard about those events somewhere else and seen more of the relationship, which, considering Libby's insight, would have been far more interesting for me.

@ Zen - I would agree that the types of sexual relationships present in the book are pretty common in the "real" world. I think whether you deem them healthy or not is subjective. I felt they were for the most part detrimental. For me these encounters served two primary purposes - first, to show the characters as simply human, to show their physical needs and desires and give the reader an intimate look at the character; secondly, as I previously discussed, to demonstrate the effect of conquest and occupation on the psyche and how that manifests in physical behavior. At first I thought the sexual content of the book was just gratuitous but as I read on it seemed to tie into the various themes.

And as for the pun – well, you knew the thread had to turn dirty eventually ;-) It’s the teenager trapped inside us all.

Jensownzoo wrote: "...but not the kind that is most familiar to the most amount of people in the "real world". "

If I may, very politely and non-offensively, point out that this viewpoint makes BIG assumption...

I really think that that Kay was trying to portray the myriad of sexual relationships that exist, considering the Palm was a sort of micro-cosm. I don't think he succeeded (based on this thread).

Maybe Kay himself did not have the background to adequately comment on these type of relationships at the time he wrote this book?

I agree with Brad that the relationships don't seem "real" but I disagree that the type of relationships described are unfamiliar to many people across the globe.

Is it, perhaps, that the sexual relationships simply don't seem "real?"

It is very difficult to pick a word to describe what very common kind of sexual relationship is lacking in this book...there are too many variations of normal, healthy doesn't quite fit either and neither does positive because I agree that sex for comfort or even just as exercise can be both of those. So what term do we pick? Because sex is mentioned A LOT in this book and various aspects, purposes, and meanings are covered...but not the kind that is most familiar to the most amount of people in the "real world".

And I am SO not touching those puns...not even if you beg...probably...

Zen wrote: "Though I agree that I would have liked to see more development in the "romance" department, I don't think I can really complain since that was not the thrust of the book.

Pun intended. ..."

I wonder which character would have most liked to be on the end of such a thrust? Maybe we should start a poll.

Sadly that pun was also intended.

I think the relationships between various couples vary a lot. I would not call them unhealthy. there are many ways to express sexuality and not all of it has to be "in love" just to be considered healthy.

In fact, there are many expressions of love in the world - and not all of them are "happy-love". Melancholy love has its' place, as does hate-turned-to-love (some arranged marriages are a good example).

Though I agree that I would have liked to see more development in the "romance" department, I don't think I can really complain since that was not the thrust of the book.

Pun intended.

Libby wrote: "The relationshipp between Catriana and Alessan simply seemed like a quick tie-up when I would have liked to see it subtley developed throughout the book...."

I don't know if anyone else felt this way, but I felt one of my problems with Alessan and Catriana ending up together was that both of them were presented as too focused on the saving of Tigana. Neither seemed to have invested any other emotional attachment with that level of significance. Yet Baerd and Devin both had other emotional attachments that kept them grounded. I assume that very focus on Tigana is what Kay is suggesting as a courtship and as the reasoning for their eventual "love," but I remember expecting Catriana to end up with Baerd the first time I read the book simply because their emotional lives would compliment and aid one another rather than because their internal lives were similar.

Brad brings up an interesting point - if both parties are aware that the purpose is comfort, is that necessarily negative? As it is portrayed in Tigana - I don't think so. You see the Brandin / Dianora relationship evolve into love despite how it started. I also think the Baerd's experience in the shadowlands is portrayed as a good experience - a fertility rite of sorts.

***SPOILER TALK+*********

While we see very few healthy sexual relationships, I agree that it would not do much for the plot. However, I was disappointed to see that the relationships that are intended as healthy and as an ending point to the novel - the prime example being Catriana / Alessan - lack any real development. Based on Dianora, it seems that Kay is certainly capable of writing that but just didn't. The relationshipp between Catriana and Alessan simply seemed like a quick tie-up when I would have liked to see it subtley developed throughout the book.

I think I have finally struck on what was unsettling me. I think it is that I don't necessarily see sex for comfort as a negative thing, or an unhealthy sexual expression. I can see how comfort could become negative, but if two people are sharing comfort in a sexual experience, if they are both benefiting from the comfort, there is a level of trust and intimacy in that comfort that can be love and a very positive thing. So I wonder...couldn't it be said that Brandin and Dianora eventually reach a healthy place, even if their early years, the bulk of their time together, was unhealthy?

I must admit I was not completely happy about the sexual relationships in this book. I think the absence of a healthy realtionship was the aspect that caused me the problem although I had not noticed this absence until Jensownzoo pointed it out.

Well, given the rest of the book, I wouldn't have been surprised...

No, no, no....I was just being silly, rather unsuccessfully. Sorry.

Was theirs a sexual relationship? If so, I completely missed it.

I dunno. I thought Baerd and Alessan had a pretty healthy relationship. Didn't they hook up in the woods somewhere? ;)

Ah, thank you Brad. That was mentioned very frequently throughout the book and I had completely forgotten.

Amy, for all we know, the merchant family has a trapeze set in their bedroom! I agree that as it is, just showing a healthy sexual relationship would not advance the story. I think the main point (which Libby helpfully made) was the sheer number of UNhealthy relationships that Kay decided to show (or even overtly imply) in the complete absence of a healthy one.

I know that one reference to sex and the gods occurs when Dianora is remembering her relationship with Baerd- something like "the sin of the gods" because they were also brother and sister. (I don't have my book with me or I'd be more specific.)

Jensownzoo, I agree with your classifications of sex for comfort and sex as a tool. But I think maybe Kay just doesn't show us the sex in romantic relationships. Devin's relationship with the singer that died seems to have been healthy, although I'm not sure how romantic it was. The merchant and his wife have a loving relationship. But describing sex in either of those instances would not add to the plot and would probably seem pretty intrusive.

I would have liked to see Catrianna involved in a more loving relationship - it's sad that her only sexual experiences are unhealthy.

Libby, Devin's conversation with Alienor struck me as well - I hadn't tied it to the overall portrayal of sexual relations in the novel.

Adaon is the male and Eanna and Morian are the females. Together they make up the Triad. And when Devin looks to the ceiling instead of at Alienor he catches an eyeful of the "primordial coupling" of Adaon and Eanna. That's the reference I can find in the book, but I know there was another, earlier reference that connected to sex amongst the god and goddesses as well, and it's that one I think had something to do with sex as a weapon. Damned if I can find it, though. Maybe I am completely out to lunch.

Crud. Refresh my memory on the gods in Tigana? I can't remember them at all. My memory gets a little strained after a month...after 6 months I can reread and it's almost a new book!

I like that, Jensownzoo. I know I have made romantic love, but I think I've made love for comfort a lot more. I don't know that I've used it as a weapon, although I may have but not intentionally (there may be some people out there, though, who think I have). I know it has been used as a weapon against me.

I find something unsettling about what you've said, but I can't put my finger on it yet (so I don't know if it is a personal discomfort or something you've triggered from the text).

Even the gods use sex as a weapon in this book don't they? Good post.

I see two main themes involving sex in this book. Sex as a tool and sex as a comfort.

As a tool we have Catriana (both Devin and that guy in the castle) and Dianora (prostitution and early with Brandin). Possibly that merchant's daughter who REALLY wanted a husband.

As a comfort we have Dianora/Baerd, Dianora/Brandin (later in their relationship), Devin/Alienor, Baerd/shadowland lady.

What we don't see is sex as a part of romantic love.

Libby said: "When I think of some of Catriana's behavior, I wonder if some of it is driven by feeling that the only thing she can contribute, or feels she can contribute, is her sexuality. There are some very unhealthy sexual relationships in the book – even what would be deemed socially perverse. It appeared to me that Kay was illustrating what can happen to a subjugated people. For example, when Devin comments to Alienor (sp?) - “is this what happens to us?” - to me it seemed like a painful realization that when basic freedoms are removed people seek any sense of freedom and/or rebellion. What more personal way to rebel and assert your alleged freedom then through sexual behavior? I’d be interested to know if the other readers thought characters like Tomasso, Alienor, Catrianna, Dianora, Baerd etc. were claiming their sexuality and using it as a personal assertion of freedom, or if each of them used it as an avoidance mechanism a way to seek shelter from reality. It is also clear that sexuality is used as a weapon. I think there is a lot of social psychology behind how sexuality is presented in the book."

What a great way to start off a topic. Thanks, Libby.