What books come within this genre? How would you describe it - the differences say between fantasy/sci-fi and other sub-genres like Dystopian fantasy and the like?

I recalled a great science fiction book from my youth. Though its been decades since I read The Forever Formula,I still remember it being fun book and easy read.

Personally, though I don't believe this description, the funniest definition between the two was on this past season of Party Down. One of the main characters is obsessed with Sci-Fi, and his definition is, if there's a dragon in it, it's Fantasy.

I tend to think of Fantasy in that way. Books like Lord of the Rings and such.
Sci-fi usually needs a space ship.

Dan wrote: "I tend to think of Fantasy in that way. Books like Lord of the Rings and such.
Sci-fi usually needs a space ship."

But Dan, what do you decide when it has both dragons and a space ship? =)
(An excellent example is All the Weyrs of Pern)

I'm a big fan of both science fiction and fantasy, and while there is a lot of crossover happening in the genres (and a lot of disagreement on where the line is, and new terms being coined), my personal definition is reliant on the author's intent.

So, stuff happening in a story being described as magic (whether inborn or alchemical or tapping into ley lines), gods, goddesses, fairies and fey are all Fantasy for me.

The opposite - plot elements or background having a scientific rationale (whether realistic within our current scientific understandings or not), is science fiction. I also include the social/soft sciences in that as well as the archetypical 'hard' science.

Some elements can go either way.

Dragons, which in many cases are a fantasy element, as a 'mystical/magical' creature, are portrayed in the Pern series as the result of genetic engineering on the part of the original colonists. Regardless of how agrarian/low tech the society in the story is, the presence of dragons has been explained as a result of science. Even the bond between rider and dragon is shown to be a kind of 'imprinting' which occurs at birth of the dragon (and only at birth - quack!)

Another plot element that can go either way is telepathy/mind speaking, or just about any mental powers on that level. Some fantasy stories explain the ability as a result of magic and spells, while science fiction stories will explain it as a result of mutation, or genetic tinkering, computer chip implants or even of cross-breeding with aliens.

Then you have books like The Time Traveler's Wife, which people who love it are horrified and shocked when you classify it as science fiction - (genetically-based time travel = science fiction), some of them are positively outraged.

Which is both funny and sad, since there is really a lot of wonderful literature and a host of great characters in science fiction. It can be deep and complex, or light and fun, there's some for every taste.

Fantasy has trees, Sci-fi has bolts. Heard Orson Scott Card say that, seems to fit.

Carolyn, that was a great definition. I work in a middle school library and that's what I try to tell the kids. If it can be explained by science and natural laws as we know them (even if the science/technology is beyond what we can do now), it is SF, if it goes into the supernatural it is fantasy.

Thanks Kris! = )

James wrote: "Fantasy has trees, Sci-fi has bolts. Heard Orson Scott Card say that, seems to fit."

Ummmm, snappy, but not really true.
Check out any of the science fiction about societies using genetic engineering to create/change animals to fulfill a function, whether super-specialized or not. A good example is West of Eden, the only 'technology' in the series are the bioengineered creatures used by the dinosaur race.

Also doesn't take into account pretty much the entire Urban Fantasy genre, most set in modern times (with plenty of technology.)

The best genre ever, it makes a good read and is equally exciting to watch. I didn't understand what James meant by "Sci-Fi has bolts", mostly cos what I have seen of sci-fi has been mostly about space travel or alien life. Fantasy usually has magical talking beings sometimes cohabiting with humans , sometimes being human themselves. I honestly didn't know if genetic engineering is sci-fi as well, but thinking about it some more I guess it would be cos of all the androids we need for colonisation and space travel or even for building a space ship and I guess once it starts, science keeps 'manufacturing' biological creatures as well. Has anyone read a good book recently?

Nausheen wrote: "The best genre ever, it makes a good read and is equally exciting to watch. I didn't understand what James meant by "Sci-Fi has bolts", mostly cos what I have seen of sci-fi has been mostly about s..."
"Sci-Fi has bolts" means that it has machines ie. spaceships, robots, androids, computers; things made out of nuts and bolts (hardware).

Nausheen, you have to read Ender's Game if you haven't done so. One of the best Sci-Fi ever.

Now a days the preferred term for these books is speculative fiction. Under it there are divisions such as scinece fiction, urban fantasy, high fantasy ect ect. It like mystery where it is divied into cosey, locked room, police procerdurals ect

I just read Flora Secunda and Flora's Dare, which were terrific. Fantasy series set in an alternate California, with all sorts of wonderful things, Aztec magicians and magic boots and preturnatural butler creatures that are bound to live in and take care of certain great houses, and a heroine who doesn't want to go to military school even though her mother is the general of the regional army. Funny and lively and odd.

Those are on my TBR, glad you enjoyed them... I may have to move them up.

I was in the perfect mood for something funny so they fit the occasion.

Dan, thanks ...I will certainly keep Ender's Game on my To-Read list.

Renee wrote something really interesting about speculative fiction. I was thinking the other day that most of Fantasy/Sci-fi creatures can actually be considered as speculative Alien Biology class, something people actually do in universties. Something like if plants were purple and homo sapiens were actually photosynthetic and lots of alternate versions.

This is great - I was thinking about sci-fi today and what books/authors are out there for YA - so a big thanks to all those who have made suggestions and if there are more would love to hear them

The Ender's Shadow series by Orson Scott Card is good too.
I also enjoyed The Stainless Steel Rat when I was younger.

Here are some science fiction that I would say are excellent for YA (some are not classified as YA, but are 'safe' for YA):

The Declaration by Gemma Malley
Little Brother by Cory Doctorow
Dolphin Island by Arthur C. Clarke
Dragonsong and Dragonsinger (also found as The Harper Hall of Pern by Anne McCaffrey (and the rest of the Pern series)
Feed by M.T Anderson
Lois Lowry's three similar-world books: The Giver, Gathering Blue, and Messenger
Ender's Game, and then Ender's Shadow(and the rest of that series) by Orson Scott Card
A Thousand Words for Stranger by Julie Czerneda (and the rest of the series)
Beholder's Eye by Julie Czerneda (and the rest of the series)
Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
The Pip & Flinx series by Alan Dean Foster, as well as his Commonwealth series
The Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold
Jumper and Reflex by Steven Gould
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series
Commitment Hour by James Alan Gardner (for ages 14+)
Soon I Will Be Invincible for superhero fun
Robert A. Heinlein's classic shorter novels like Citizen of the Galaxy, Have Space Suit-Will Travel, Space Cadet, Farmer in the Sky, and Orphans of the Sky
The Ship Who Sang and sequels by Anne McCaffrey & co-authors
The Acorna The Unicorn Girl series by Anne McCaffrey for the 9-11 age group
Most all of Andre Norton's books - The Time Traders, Star Born, Breed to Come, Flight in Yiktor, Forerunner, The Beast Master, etc.
Little Fuzzy and Fuzzy Sapiens by H. Beam Piper
Sector General books by James White

These are books off my shelves, that I've read almost all of. I'm happy to answer any questions, or narrow the choices down for you.

A lot of good choices there Carolyn. I would second Little Brother, Soon I will Be Invincible, and the books by Heinlein and Norton. Heinlein especially :)

A lot of the others I haven't read, but they've been on my radar (or my TBR shelf!) for a while.

Nice list Carolyn. Will help me point students in the right direction since Sci Fi (ok and Fantasy too) are the library's top genre requested. Thanks!

I have a question about Things Not Seen by Andrew Clements - Speculative Fiction>Sci Fi or Speculative Fiction>Fantasy? It's one of my favorites about a young man who awakens one morning after sleeping under his electric blanket only to discover he's invisible. It's realistically set and has the scientist parent working on the solution.

BunWat wrote: "I just read Flora Secunda and Flora's Dare, which were terrific. Fantasy series set in an alternate California, with all sorts of wonderful things, Aztec magicians and magic boots and preturnatural..."

Bun Wat, Your read list has been helpful to me on YA Challenge #2. Would you classify The Golden Compass as SF/F? If so, could we discuss it for one of my tasks. Also, I selected Flora Segunda based on your recommendation for another part of the challenge and am looking forward to reading it.

Hi Lydia, yes I would absolutely classify the Golden Compass as fantasy or speculative fiction. I would be happy to discuss it. I don't know what the rules are do we make a thread, or ...? I hope you enjoy Flora Segunda as much as I did.

BunWat wrote: "Hi Lydia, yes I would absolutely classify the Golden Compass as fantasy or speculative fiction. I would be happy to discuss it. I don't know what the rules are do we make a thread, or ...? I hope..."

It will take me a couple of weeks or so (I have to get the book, read it, etc.) but we can probably initiate a discussion (along with others) under this genre.

Thanks an awful lot! If you like, I would very much like to extend friendship to you.

Thank you Lydia, I am honored. But I think you already did? Let me check.

Yes. You did. And I accepted.

Tlc wrote: "I have a question about Things Not Seen by Andrew Clements - Speculative Fiction>Sci Fi or Speculative Fiction>Fantasy? It's one of my favorites about a young man who awakens one morning after slee..."

I think the lines are getting very blurry around these genre headings. Authors seem to be mixing and matching elements from just about everywhere. I mean how does one classify a book that has elves, werewolves and spaceships. The book you're describing with the chap waking up invisible and having parents who are scientists who are trying to find a cure seems to slot into that genre void. My own book I describe sometimes as 'paranormal social realism' but you're not going to find that heading on any bookshop shelves, while the Australian publisher described it as an historical fantasy. It seems like a tricky on-going question that doesn't have an easy answer.

Lydia wrote: "BunWat wrote: "Hi Lydia, yes I would absolutely classify the Golden Compass as fantasy or speculative fiction. I would be happy to discuss it. I don't know what the rules are do we make a thread,..."

Hi BunWat and Lydia. Pullman's 'His Dark Materials' series is one of my favourite YA trilogies. By the way, I'm not much clueier about the rules, so I've just barged in. I'd tend to favour labelling The Golden Compass as fantasy even though it's got a scientific element with the physicist. It doesn't seem to have any of the Speculative-SciFi elements that one would expect from traditional SciFi. What do you two think?

I agree that the lines between science fiction and fantasy are increasingly blurred, and they were never all that clear to begin with. Clearly Golden Compass is set in a universe of numerous parallel dimensions each with different fundamental laws, some slightly different some wildly different. Is that science or magic? Well I guess you have to go to Clarke's law, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Then of course Niven's corollary, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." :D

In other words, I think it is speculative fiction that sits somewhere between science fiction and fantasy - as a lot of my preferred speculative fiction does.

Good definition. I'd completely forgotten about Clarke's law. By the way, my brother once played table tennis with Clarke in Sri Lanka. Sorry, totally off topic. I don't know of Niven? Can you elucidate?

Larry Niven is a science fiction writer, author of a number of novels, short stories, essays, most prolific in the 70's-80's although he's still writing, winner of the Hugo, Nebula, Locus awards. His best known novel is probably Ringworld, although I really like his collaborations with Jerry Pournelle - particularly The Mote in God's Eye, and Footfall. He's also been a member of a group of science writers who provide policy advice to the US gvt.

Ah, yes, I've heard of Ringworld - is it a series or a trilogy or something?. Haven't read it, though. haven't read a lot of sci-fi recently at all, which is a shame, as I'm sure there's some amazing stuff out there. The Golden Compass is the first in the series - had a different name in the UK and Oz (called Northern Lights). The first two in the series are excellent, while the third is very good but is missing something. be interested to hear what you think when you finish the first one.

I've read all three Dark Materials books, and listened to the audio versions, which I also enjoyed. Its Lydia who has not read them. She found Golden Compass on my shelves, and one of the challenges was to read a book from another group member's shelves? That's what I think anyway, I'm fairly new around here myself.

ETA: Ringworld was a stand alone novel, but many years later he wrote some sequels.

BunWat wrote: "I've read all three Dark Materials books, and listened to the audio versions, which I also enjoyed. Its Lydia who has not read them. She found Golden Compass on my shelves, and one of the challen..."

My daughters were raised in Nome, Alaska (where LIFE is science fiction) and my best friend owned the most northwestern bookstore in the U.S. She gave the Pullman books to the girls when they first came out but I never read them. The girls were quite confused after reading the book (SFF was not high on our reading list at the time.) So I'm just late to his work.
For me, speculative fiction seems to have an historical element. Is this still true?

Question: Has anyone found a SFF YA/Adult book that has gay characters?

Speculative fiction is an umbrella term that covers science fiction, fantasy, and horror. I often use it because as discussed here, I think the boundaries between those genres blur pretty quickly. Urban fantasy for example, is clearly a blend of fantasy and horror - werewolves in the big city with magic...

Regarding SFF with gay characters, yes there is some. Some of the characters in Sherri Tepper's A Gate to Women's Country are gay. Several of the characters in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series are gay. I think there are gay characters in several of Tanith Lee's novels, I definitely rememember one of the main character's friends in Silver Metal Lover is "mirror-biased," which is what gay is called in that society. Those are all more or less adult novels although not unsuitable for older YA. Have to think about where else.

Malcolm and BunWat,

Then I'm a bit confused. I read this wonderful anthology once about what would have happened if the alternative presidential candidate had won the election, written by some of the top names in the SF field. It was the first time I ever even entertained actually reading SFF. The short stories followed in sequence, no less. I was told that this is what defined speculative fiction.

BunWat, thank you for the names. I will be looking them up and, naturally, expanding my TBR list.

I think whoever told you speculative fiction = alternative history lead you a bit astray. Speculative fiction is fiction which is not set in the the world we live in, but in a world that has been changed according to some kind of speculation - history was different, magic works, in the future we can fly to other planets, there really are demons, etc etc. Its fiction set in imaginary worlds in essence. There are all kinds of sub genres and sub sub genres. For example, alternate history.

Just as mystery might be the large category and then within that category you could have english country house mystery, or noir private eye, or historical mystery, etc.

While I tend to agree with you, BunWat, - that the term speculative fiction makes a neat umbrella for a whole range of sub-genres - I do find that, like Lydia, these terms can be confusing and misleading. Where does one place a book like Cormac McCarthy's The Road? It's set in a short-range dystopian future in which a father and child struggle to survive. This means that it could be labelled sci-fi? But a lot of readers might describe it as literature, which is a genre in itself I suppose. By the way, I don't know if anyone's read The Road but it's very, very good

I think we're pattern-makers/recognisers and we're bound to put everything we see into categories, which is fun and useful and makes groups like these work really well, but ultimately there are going to be those works that refuse to be categorised.

The other book - possibly my all-time favourite dystopian novel - that refuses to my mind to be clearly catergorised is Riddley Walker. While the language it's written in is difficult to say the least, a kind of post-apocalyptic Cockney, the novel is so full of interesting ideas and plays with language so successfully that I rate it as one of the all time greats. Whether it's going to become a classic rather than just a cult book is debatable. Is there anyone else out there who's read it?

I have not read Riddley Walker. It sounds interesting. As far as the genre vs. literature debate - well that's one that goes on forever. Personally, I think that there are two conflicting classifications going on simultaneously. One is a classification by subject matter - science fiction, mystery, spy thriller, historical. The other is a judgement about quality - "literature," vs. genre, pulp or popular fiction.

To me it seems self evident that something can be of very high quality and still fall into a particular subject matter classification. As for example, The Road is clearly a post apocalyptic novel. The fact that it is a post apocalyptic novel of high quality doesn't - to my mind although others disagree - take it out of being science fiction it just makes it literature quality science fiction. Any more than the fact that Jane Eyre is a novel of high quality means that it is not also a romance. Or that Ivanhoe isn't historical fiction just because it was written by Sir Walter Scott.

science fiction: there is no cure for the common cold.

fantasy: we live in a free society.

Eugene Can you elaborate please? Cos I think Fantasy has similar laws as reality but is somehow different. What do you refer to when you call it a free society? I think there are masters and slaves in some dragon books just like anywhere else.

Just a thought ::; would alternate history become fantasy/sci-fi if set in a magical land way in the future or maybe the alternative candidate is an alien , a bit like X men lol

Has anyone read Seeds of Time? I really found the book very engrossing. I also read this other book by Ben Bova, it had a really cool idea about a sphere around the sun...it was a bit of a drag though sometimes. Alpha Centauri is also a nice series.

I am a big fan of Riddley Walker - I guess I didn't see it as a YA book - prob b/c I read it when I was at uni!!

I loved the exploration of a new language, new rules, new society coming out of turmoil - I guess there are many variations on that theme though.

you are a gem - have printed out the list and am now going to try and make headway with it.
thanks

Hi Sybs, I wasn't putting forward Riddley Walker as a YA book just as one of my all time favourites. Glad to hear there's others out there who like it. A lot of people struggle with it, mostly because of the post-apocalyptic language. I think I've read it about five or six times now and still find I get something out of it. Mind you I gre up in that area of the UK so it has a peculiar resonance for me.

Malcolm wrote: "While I tend to agree with you, BunWat, - that the term speculative fiction makes a neat umbrella for a whole range of sub-genres - I do find that, like Lydia, these terms can be confusing and misleading. Where does one place a book like Cormac McCarthy's The Road? It's set in a short-range dystopian future in which a father and child struggle to survive. This means that it could be labelled sci-fi? But a lot of readers might describe it as literature, which is a genre in itself I suppose..."

I have to agree with BunWat on this - classifying something as 'literary' is a statement of it's quality, not it's topic. Ursula K. LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness is pretty universally acknowledged to be 'literary' science fiction.

A book like McCarthy's The Road is definitely science fiction - the whole raison d'etre for the plot is the desolation of the landscape and the character's constant struggle, not only physically, but also emotionally to survive wouldn't make sense without that post-apocalyptic scenario.

So, picked up this link from another GoodReader in a different group I'm in, but the topic of this post is all about a recent flap which has spurred discussion of 'literary' vs 'genre' - whether they are mutually exclusive, etc.
http://ellen-datlow.livejournal.com/2127...

As a longtime reader of all kinds of speculative fiction, I find it laughable how many people automatically dismiss SF/Fantasy and all 'speculative fiction as 'crap' not worth reading. Yet, when I discuss with them whether they've read, oh 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 or Dante's Inferno or Shakespeare's Midsummer's Night Dream or a host of other works that would unarguably be classified as 'literary' works and as classics and are taught as such in many schools and colleges - and yet they are all some kind of speculative fiction - dystopias, demons and fairies alike.

Lydia wrote: "Question: Has anyone found a SFF YA/Adult book that has gay characters?"

There are plenty of them - one of the things I enjoy about science fiction is gender discussions within a novel's setting.

So, I guess my question before naming some is, are you looking for novels where the character is gay, but that's just ancillary to the story, or are you looking for books that pivot around gender and/or gender determination?

BunWat wrote: "Well I guess you have to go to Clarke's law, "any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." Then of course Niven's corollary, "any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology." :D
"

It has always been human nature to dismiss something as magic just because it is not understood. Go back a few hundred years and things that we consider to be solid science were considered black magic or witchcraft.

Just look at "Star Trek" and their handheld communicators, not much different than our cell phones now.

I suspect that if you could jump forward a few hundred years things that we consider impossible (teleportation, traveling at the speed of light, etc.) or magic and quite possible.

Lydia wrote: "Malcolm and BunWat,

Then I'm a bit confused. I read this wonderful anthology once about what would have happened if the alternative presidential candidate had won the election, written by some o..."

Sounds like an interesting book, what is the title?