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Movies, TV Shows, and Games > Game of Thrones: TV and Book Spoilers Inside

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message 1: by Ycel (last edited Jun 10, 2013 02:38PM) (new)

Ycel | 520 comments This thread is created to discuss the books in GRRM’s A Song of Ice and Fire series (five books printed to-date) and the HBO adaptation Game of Thrones (currently on its third season). This thread may also contain speculations about the two unpublished books (The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring) and the future instalments in the TV series. If you have not read the books or seen the TV series, you are seriously advised to proceed at your own risk.

So I guess it’s just proper to kick start the discussion and zoom in on that fateful day, June 3, when HBO finally aired The Red Wedding episode and Twitter got swamped with vehemently passionate tweets from angry, disconsolate fans (I'm being redundant on purpose). Did you get to catch the show? What are your thoughts? Do you think Robb deserved his fate? Rant away! (*The Rains of Castamere playing in the background*)
(view spoiler)


message 2: by ☼~Marian~☼ (last edited Jun 05, 2013 10:59AM) (new)

☼~Marian~☼ (MGDC) | 242 comments Me and my friends discussed about how the TV series gave justice to such an awesome book. We're all going ga-ga over GoT, readers and non-readers alike. In spite them knowing what will happen, they were still surprised by the abruptness of that scene.

After reading the whole series, I was looking forward to that Red Wedding. I found that video compilation of Red Wedding reactions (view spoiler) really amusing. They cursed, went ballistic, wide-eyed. I feel their disbelief. I remember my reaction: I threw my book across the room, picked it up again and reread that part. Then I paused, trying to absorb the event and at the same time deny. I was like "thats just a dream or there's something more to it; they must be somewhere; Martin is just trying to trick his readers".This is the very first book that was able to invoke so much rage in me and I loved it.


message 3: by ☼~Marian~☼ (new)

☼~Marian~☼ (MGDC) | 242 comments Do you think Robb deserved to die?

- Nooooooo! He deserves to return home and rule Winterfell. It's Cersei and Joffrey who must suffer. But I guess he needed to die so (view spoiler). Watch out you Lannister's because winter is coming.**evil laugh**


message 4: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Marian wrote: “I remember my reaction: I threw my book across the room, picked it up again and reread that part. Then I paused, trying to absorb the event and at the same time deny. I was like "thats just a dream or there's something more to it; they must be somewhere; Martin is just trying to trick his readers".This is the very first book that was able to invoke so much rage in me and I loved it.”

Exactly the same reaction when I read the book. I think I dwelled on it for days. It’s been years since I read A Storm of Swords, but seeing it translated onscreen hit me anew although I knew what would happen. It took me a while to get to sleep.

On whether Robb deserved to die:
Marian wrote: “Nooooooo! He deserves to return home and rule Winterfell.”

I posed the question because I wanted to probe it in the following context: would Ned have done the same, break a promise and marry for love? GRRM has always painted the Starks as men of unquestionable integrity, yet somehow Robb broke that ethos. Or perhaps, to borrow Aaron’s words, TV Robb is such a big moron?


message 5: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments (view spoiler)


message 6: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments And oh, I also renamed the thread, if you don't mind. There are critical spoilers even at the first post.


message 7: by Erika Etherviere (last edited Jun 06, 2013 08:00AM) (new)

Erika Etherviere (erikaetherviere) | 59 comments It's hard to discuss "spoilers" here because I immediately assume that people here have already read the books (or are currently reading it) since this is Goodreads... To comment on the basic plot of the TV series is like commenting about the book itself, so I think it's more appropriate to discuss reactions, opinions and such..

I personally liked how they translated the red wedding to TV. Having read the book, it was still different altogether to actually watch it unfold right in front of you. It's been so long since I read aSoS, so it was a really good reminder of how brutal GRRM's pen is :))

Even though I knew what was gonna happen, I was still horrified when Talisa got stabbed (and stabbed, and stabbed) to the stomach. (That wasn't on the book) And the whole thing really left me an ill feeling. Reading it and seeing it was very different (although the book version was more traumatic).

I was kinda thankful they didn't show Grey Wind's head being put on Robb's.. I mean, I don't think I wanna see that. Or I dunno, there's still episode 10 so they might do that for the aftermath episode (I hope not)...


message 8: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Thanks, Aaron. No prob.


message 9: by Raphael (new)

Raphael | 62 comments Game of Thrones started strong, but I gave up half-way through season 2. I don't know.. The series began to drag, as if I'm watching the same scenes over and over. The plot progress was slow, and with all the chit-chat they keep feeding me, I soon got fed up with the characters. Finally when there's some action... sigh* I'm sorry to say this guys but the sword fights were lame. There's no venom or anything with their strikes, looking like badly choreographed moves--except for Khalisy's(however you spell it) late husband, the big dude. I still think Band of Brothers is the best HBO ever produced.

No offense to the fans, these are just personal opinions :)


message 10: by Ycel (last edited Jun 06, 2013 04:51PM) (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Raphael: No offense taken. Book 3 imo is the best in the series, so that should be enough reason to start watching the show again :) Season 3 is where Khaleesi will start to really kick ass.

On the subject of best HBO series ever produced, that is a matter of personal taste because I know people who will argue that the honor belongs to The Sopranos. But yeah, to each his own.


message 11: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Erika: They will most likely show it (view spoiler) in the final episode. And (view spoiler). So I expect more fans crying foul next week.


message 12: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Aaron wrote: “We sympathize more with TV Robb because he has more exposure than Book Robb but he is a massive idiot.”

I liked that HBO gave Robb more exposure because in the book we mostly hear about his exploits in the war from second hand accounts. But giving him a hottie wife and then bringing the wife to the wedding. In the book, it was enough that he broke his promise for the Freys to reciprocate with mass murder. In the series, Robb had to rub it in. It looks like HBO really wanted to justify the bloodbath that ensued.


message 13: by ☼~Marian~☼ (new)

☼~Marian~☼ (MGDC) | 242 comments Even in the book I am quite indifferent with Robb because of a petty reason of his dislike to Jon Snow. If Ned were to make a decision, I think he will honor the promise. He is much wiser and experienced compared to Robb. I mean, he's just a boy and almost knows nothing about politics. The Freys are a cunning lot.

I only watched season 1 and some episodes that I like. I only watch TV series after its completion. I hate to be left hanging. But I'm really looking forward for the following (do not click unless you've read til The Dance of Dragons): (view spoiler)

When is the the release of Winds of Winter? Absolutely aching to read about the battle in the Slaver's Bay and battle in the ice.


message 14: by ☼~Marian~☼ (new)

☼~Marian~☼ (MGDC) | 242 comments Ycel wrote: "Erika: They will most likely show it [spoilers removed] in the final episode. And [spoilers removed]. So I expect more fans crying foul next week."

I think they will. You know, just to fuel the viewer's anger. Why will they not show (view spoiler)? I like that one. It gave me hope that one day she'll make those bastards pay.


message 15: by Ycel (last edited Jun 06, 2013 08:34PM) (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Marian:
Excerpt from Winds of Winter. The Sand Snakes!


message 16: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments I think they will show Lady Stoneheart this finale. What's the use of the talks with Lord Beric about dying and resurrection if not as foreshadowing for Catelyn's 'resurrection'? And they always end the seasons with the supernatural. Season 1: Birth of the Dragons Season 2: The March of the White Walkers It would follow the pattern if we'll have Catelyn's Resurrection on Season 3.

I like the long conversations! It's awesome to figure out what's being said and what was being implied by what is being said. So much fun. And best HBO show? It's a toss between The Wire and Six Feet Under for me. Still not counting Game of Thrones because it's not finish yet. But it's a strong contender.


message 17: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Aaron:

Your observation on season finales being supernatural is spot on. But the penultimate episodes are always the most memorable, too.
Season 1 – Baelor
Season 2 – Blackwater
Season 3 – The Rains of Castamere


message 18: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Marian:

Ditto on the scenes that you look forward to. I especially want to see the Walk of Shame. But you forgot the best ones: (view spoiler).


message 19: by Erika Etherviere (new)

Erika Etherviere (erikaetherviere) | 59 comments Nothing like pouring alcohol over the bleeding wound if they decide to show Grey Wind's beheading. Brutal. Haha


message 20: by Ranee (new)

Ranee | 1828 comments Hey guys, a bit confused, who is the ice dude that wants to get the male baby? The one that was killed by Sam by stabbing its back? He's not a whitewalker, is he?


message 21: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments He is!


message 22: by Ranee (new)

Ranee | 1828 comments So you can kill a whitewalker even without fire?


message 23: by Ycel (last edited Jun 09, 2013 02:48AM) (new)

Ycel | 520 comments They're vulnerable to obsidian and Valyrian steel. Samwell Tarly killed one with obsidian dagger.


message 24: by Ranee (new)

Ranee | 1828 comments Aaah, i was thinking about that dagger,but since he left it, i said, maybe that was not it. Hehe


message 25: by Mark (last edited Jun 09, 2013 01:12PM) (new)

Mark | 212 comments I grew tired of watching Game of Thrones after season 1. At first I got interested in the idea of a (Medieval style) civilization which thrived without the benefit of Greek and Roman philosophy. It soon became clear to me after a few episodes that the GOT kingdoms and politics move in a philosophically empty world - it's just shallow power play. They have no equivalents for the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle, for example, which could have influenced their political life or would have driven them to pursue an ideal society based on a sense of world order (whatever that order may be based on). ((For that matter there was no equivalent of Confucius either. *for those who like Eastern philosophy.)) Then the dialogue started to bore me. It all sounded like the characters are engaged in a competition for who got the best witty comebacks.

I do have a pet theory though, for why their seasons are uneven in duration (or perhaps the cycles are too long for human memory to handle) -- their "sun" is artificial. The opening titles hint at such a possibility. There we see the "sun" being dragged across the sky inside rotating metal rings.


message 26: by ☼~Marian~☼ (new)

☼~Marian~☼ (MGDC) | 242 comments Mark: Gosh Mark. Why so serious? It is an epic fantasy and why do we have to drag Aristotle, Plato or Samson and Delilah? it has got nothing to do with philosophical kembot. Its not like we're goimg to analyze the whole society and stop world hunger with this TV series.Geeeesh..I can see your wrinkles from here. Hahahaha. Peace bro. :)


message 27: by Ycel (last edited Jun 10, 2013 02:36PM) (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Mark:

Philosophy was not a main consideration when I read ASOIAF, heee. I was drawn to it because of the nuances in the characterization, the plot twists, the symbolisms and the narrative technique. Although ASOIAF is set in a fantastic world, with seasons lasting for years and years, we see our world in the backroom dealings and political back stabbings as characters play the game of thrones. And this is only appropriate because the time frame in the story is set during the War of the Five Kings, so this is literally a big power play among competing families. Your theory on the artificial sun is interesting, but the metaphor of summer and winter as used in the story is more akin to the theme of childhood and coming of age, especially when seen from the POV of the Stark children. For instance, Bran is called "a sweet summer child," indicating that he's lived a relatively pain-free and fear-free life (until, of course, the accident). Jon Snow is also something of a summer child, since he has lived most of his life in this summer. The older members of the Night's Watch mention that the new recruits still "smell of summer"; that is, they are untested and weak, not used to the sorts of dangers of the north and of winter.

But now that you’ve mentioned it, one will find philosophy aplenty in GoT , but not the Aristotleian/Platonist/Confucian variety. One will find an abundance of Machiavellian echoes between the pages. Just look at the house sigils and mottoes. Just remember that the title is about “a” game.


message 28: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments I think if you read the books you can spot some philosophy here and there. They had to compress 1000 pages worth of events in 10 episodes. I think they can hardly fit philosophy in there. And as Marian said, it is a High Fantasy novel/tv show. I don't think it ever aspired to be a capital I: Important novel/tv show. :)


message 29: by Erika Etherviere (last edited Jun 09, 2013 08:36PM) (new)

Erika Etherviere (erikaetherviere) | 59 comments What I liked about aSoIaF are the things that make it so different from others of its genre. How it's a fantasy grounded to reality. How it's politically driven. How characters are neither purely good nor purely evil...

As for the seasons, this world has magic in it, so I'm sure that has some affect to its natural cycle. Also, I doubt the artificial sun. The opening credits is an artistic interpretation of the maps of Westeros and Essos... I doubt the concept artists and modellers intended for it to be treated literally.


message 30: by Mark (last edited Jun 10, 2013 06:59AM) (new)

Mark | 212 comments LOLZ! I can't help it! :-) One time I even analyzed if the travel times in Westeros was consistent with the means of transport, the condition of roads (esp. King's Road), and distances. It was all - well - unacceptable. And let's not talk about Westeros' economic system - where does all the food and money come from? Where is the manpower? And the weather system - is it consistent with the kind of crops that flourish in the regions? Hahaha! Just sharing these, don't mind me :-)

Anyway my favorite character is Tyrion - he seems to be the only sane character there (and he loves to read - I was really intruigued by this - I wonder what he read? He seems to be familiar with a philosophical sense of moral order, which I think influences his actions - and he does make consistently good decisions; though he doesn't consistently follow this moral sense. And of course there's Syrio Forel (I like to imagine that he survived). I also like Tywin.


message 31: by Mark (last edited Jun 10, 2013 04:44AM) (new)

Mark | 212 comments @Marian: I like your post! Hahaha :-)

Guys, don't get me wrong - I love the whole idea of GOT as far as it is an exploration of a secondary world, especially a world where the idea of the supernatural is taken for granted as part of reality and part of the natural order. The dragons, for example, are presented as real animals in the biological sense (That the dragons are not indigenous to the planet is hinted at by the legends of the dragons' origins: they were said to have come from skyward disks which broke, and from the wreck came the dragons. I remember this from an episode). And yet for all the freaky, supernatural stuff going on in Westeros, their world remains intelligible, and i love that! :-) (For a great analysis of the idea of magic, here's a short article from philosopher Ed Feser - "Magic versus Metaphysics" http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2011/...


I also like that Westeros is a great builder civilization. There's a lot of small touches here and there that is particularly interesting like the use of gunpowder in the battle of Blackwater, and also of Valyrian steel. This (the megastructures, metallurgy, and gunpowder knowledge) tells us a lot of things about their civilization.


message 32: by Erika Etherviere (last edited Jun 10, 2013 10:28AM) (new)

Erika Etherviere (erikaetherviere) | 59 comments Mark wrote: "LOLZ! I can't help it! :-) One time I even analyzed if the travel times in Westeros was consistent with the means of transport, the condition of roads (esp. King's Road), and distances. It was all ..."

Money comes from agriculture, farming, fishing, slave trades (in Essos), blacksmithing/weaponries, wine trades, etc. the usual. Businesses go on even in war. If you're asking about the currency, Westeros has its own currency, established since the Targaryen rule.

If you're wondering why the Lannisters are so rich, it's because Casterly Rock sits on top of a gold mine, a very productive one. So in a sense, they literally sleep on gold.


message 33: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Mark wrote: "There's a lot of small touches here and there that is particularly interesting like the use of gunpowder in the battle of Blackwater..."

Are you referring to wildfire?


message 34: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments Finale was a downer. Not as chilling as the first two season's finale. Boo.


message 35: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments I knew you'd say that. The impact would have been sustained if Lady Stoneheart made an appearance. Disappointing.


message 36: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments As much as I love Team Daenerys (view spoiler) I thought the final shots were a bit cheesy. I know she is supposed to be the conqueror who is also the deliverer, but to have her as the messiah figure is way too early. They had it too easy this season. I want real threat to them next!


message 37: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Mhysa! *trolling* :D


message 38: by Erika Etherviere (new)

Erika Etherviere (erikaetherviere) | 59 comments I'll have to agree with Dany's scene. Way too cheesy. While watching it, I was like... "Wtf?? OA!!!"


message 39: by Aaron Vincent (new)

Aaron Vincent (aaronvincent) | 1831 comments Wahhh. Spoiler tag on previous message wasn't working so...
Team Dany:
(view spoiler)

Also, it would have been better if they ended it with that shot. Team Dany is quite badass.


message 40: by Mark (last edited Jun 11, 2013 05:29AM) (new)

Mark | 212 comments @Ycel: Wildfire, I think, might be napalm. We have something like that in our own world's history with the ancients' use of "Greek Fire".

@Erika: Yes, thanks.

I think the closest thing to a moral philosophy in GOT can be glimpsed in some of the characters sense of duty.

As for their religion: For all the religions I saw in the show, I think they all share the idea that a great and personal sacrifice is needed to bring about a birth (or rebirth?) or a transformation. And one of the religions in the series seems to be a "paganized" form of Christianity.


P.S. I didn't like what happened to Ros. :-(


message 41: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Aaron said: "Team Dany is quite badass."

Don't like Daario Naharis :(


message 42: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Mark said: "I didn't like what happened to Ros. :-( "

You mean Robb?


message 43: by Mark (new)

Mark | 212 comments Ros, the red-haired girl.


message 44: by Ycel (new)

Ycel | 520 comments Oh, her. Well, Joffrey is a malignant king. So I think Tyrion scored so well when he did this:
(view spoiler)


message 45: by Mark (new)

Mark | 212 comments LOLZ :-)


message 46: by Ranee (new)

Ranee | 1828 comments Ha! Saw the season ender, and it was the pungent aftertaste after the banquet in episode 9.

I also disagree about the show having a strong philosophical air. Come on, when you see dragons burning a kingdom, you don't philosophize. You simply burn them and conquer. Hahaha. Well, from what I gather, this was how King's landing was built.


message 47: by Mark (new)

Mark | 212 comments Haha yup! :-) I think I was wrong to dismiss the show on the basis of lack of moral philosophy. I thought about it again and yes, they do have a philosophy: Might is Right, and the strong can do what he wants. (I just hope the dialogue improves :-) )


message 48: by Ranee (new)

Ranee | 1828 comments So Mark, basic philosophy nito ay: Survival of the fittest? Or yung favorite ni Marcos- 3G's (guns, goons, gold)


message 49: by Mark (new)

Mark | 212 comments Parang more like: Good and evil has no meaning outside of what the powerful want these words to mean. The effect can be seen sa activities ng characters - each of them are willing to do whatever it takes to accomplish their plans.


message 50: by Gwaxa (new)

Gwaxa | 317 comments The last episode was meh. Team Dany ako pero yung ginawa ni Dany, parang rock star lang ang peg.
Mhysa *roll eyes*! Lol.


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