Hi all, I'm puttering along through the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" and the author "sucks her teeth" over a few phrases which I must admit I don't understand why they are wrong. SO as I go, I'll just post my questions here so you can bestow your great knowledge upon me.

(AKA- I live in Idaho,where children learn the story of Peter and the Woof while sitting in the holler, after they squoze the toothpaste. throw me a bone with this!)

Okay, question #1: Why can't people talk about the "enormity" of the destruction on 9/11? (she wants "magnitude")

#2: Why are stores wrong to have a lane that says: "Eight items or less" (she wants "fewer")

#3. Here's another. Truss wrote:"greengrocers are self-evidently horny-thumbed people who do not live by words." (pg.63)

To me,this means that they have oversexed thumbs, or thumbs that can't control their sexual tendencies. Since I'm quite sure I've missed the point, I would appreciate an American translation.

Wendy wrote: "#3. Here's another. Truss wrote:"greengrocers are self-evidently horny-thumbed people who do not live by words." (pg.63)

To me,this means that they have oversexed thumbs, or thumbs that can't co..."

A Greengrocer is the equivalent of the fruit and vegetable stands at the farmers market (or if you live in San Francisco... Little Italy or China Town.)

Today of course, the supermarket has overtaken the function.

It is, the writer is saying, 'archaic slang' ... although I disagree with the book on this. One may no longer specifically refer to going to the greengrocer but instead going to market, but it is apropos in some places... and especially if one is writing a period piece.

I understand the grocer part; it's the "horny-thumbed" part that I don't get. I only know horny as refering to actual horns or to sex. But surely here it means something else.

Number one ... Enormity is imprecise when it is used to refer to the 'great size' of something.

The original and preferred meaning is 'extreme wickedness,' as in : the enormity of the mass murders.

Number Two...
Strictly defined, less applies to singular nouns ( less tonic water, please) or units of measure ( less than six ounces of epoxy). Fewer applies to plural nouns ( fewer guests arrived than expected) or numbers of things ( we have three fewer members this year).

The exception in using fewer occurs when count nouns essentially function as mass nouns because the units are so very numerous or they aren't considered discrete items (the idea of individual units becomes meaningless).

"horny-thumbed" may mean calloused from hard work.

Wendy,

I was as lost as you were at first. Though I think I agree with Rebecca about the horny-thumbed bit. Green grocer? Hmmm...and it's not a period piece. I know we never say that, it's market or just grocery store. I don't know.

Self-evidently? Doesn't sound right. I think it could have been written another way. I don't know how but it just doesn't sound right to me.

The sign does actually say "Eight items or less" in every store i've been in. So I think that's fine. If she said "fewer" then people would be like "That's not what the signs say. What are you talking about?"

Renee, I'm reading the book called "Eats, Shoots & Leaves" which is a NY Times Bestseller on Grammar. It's pretty good so far- check out this phrase and the difference punctuation makes:

A woman, without her man, is nothing.
A woman: without her, man is nothing.

I personally prefer the second!

and a banner that said: "Giant Kid's Playground!"
Which would of course mean that a giant Kid plays there, scaring off all the little normal buggers.

That would be my kids. They always have to play alone there. It's not fair, just because they're vertically gifted doens't mean they're different from the rest.

I obviously haven't heard of that book. I avoid grammar as a rule. Not much use for it where I'm from.

*Remembers "Honey I blew up the Kids" movie*

That was YOUR kid? I would sue!

The good thing is that I know from experience my daughter will never wear sexy little teddies or any other thing like that. They don't make them long enough for our freakishly elongated torsos. I get a thong whether I want it or not.
On the down side, it's bikini or one piece thong.

It's not the long torso that bothers me, it's the freakishly HUGE feet. My feet reached their zenith of size twelve in women/10 in men when I was in seventh grade- of course I was still just 5'1 at the time. I was a clutz- still am.

And I still can't find any decent shoes. THey are all either white lowtops (great way to make the blaring things appear even bigger) or glittery metalic spike heels (for transvestites, I'm thinking)
When I do find a pair- I force it to last forever. Tape, glue, whatever it takes.

I feel your pain although at 6 feet I only have tiny size tens. STill, your selection is limited when you have man-size tootsies. My daughter is only ten and she has size 7 in women's. Poor little muffin.
She'll probably be like eight feet tall.

I dunno- Everyone thought I'd be a six-footer to go with the boat sized feet, but I petered out around 5'9.5
I suppose thats a good thing though since my husband is only a quarter inch taller than me. We wear the same size shoes, pants, shirts... underwear is the only thing sacred.

ANOTHER QUESTION:

So for proper nouns... Sometimes words like Dad & Mom are capitalized in the middle of a sentence and sometimes they are not. What decides when they are capital?

I think when you are referring to them in as in my mom and my dad or his dad, they shouldn't be capitalized. But if they are speaking or doing something as in Dad was home, or Mom began to laugh, you refer to them with capitals. Do I make sense? I'm not sure myself. I don't know waht the proper terms here are, I just remember it from my hated college grammar classes.

Renee wrote: "I think when you are referring to them in as in my mom and my dad or his dad, they shouldn't be capitalized. But if they are speaking or doing something as in Dad was home, or Mom began to laugh, y..."

You are correct.

Monty, what do we have for our winner.

For actually paying attention in class, we have ...

drum roll...

A three-day-old-dead-flounder.

Yay for me!! I'm so honored. Flounder! I haven't had that in like....ever.
I've posed that question many times in my head and I could hear my exciting grammar instructor droning on about the finer points of when to & when not to capitalize. Good memory. It's too bad that punctuation never really sunk in. Too much stuff at that point.

Renee wrote: "Yay for me!! I'm so honored. Flounder! I haven't had that in like....ever.

I've posed that question many times in my head and I could hear my exciting grammar instructor droning on about the fine..."

Heh...

Did they ever blindfold you in touch typing class?

You should see some of the 'stream of consciousness' writing I've done over the years.

No punctuation, no paragraphs... no structure of any kind. I don't even turn on the spell checker, and in fact, half the time I do have my eyes closed... and just tlet the ideas flow until the tap starts dripping.

Then, when it's over, I sit back and start the process of making sense of the 'core dump.'

Wendy wrote: "Hi all, I'm puttering along through the book "Eats, Shoots and Leaves" and the author "sucks her teeth" over a few phrases which I must admit I don't understand why they are wrong. SO as I go, I'l..."


Fewer is used with countable nouns: people, animals, chairs, shoes. Less is used for uncountable, usually abstract nouns: money, happiness, snow, idealism.
Less is also used with adjectives and adverbs

Wendy wrote: "ANOTHER QUESTION:

So for proper nouns... Sometimes words like Dad & Mom are capitalized in the middle of a sentence and sometimes they are not. What decides when they are capital?

"

If you use dad, mom or grandma, etc in place of his or her name, you capitalize: "Dad, pass the butter." vs. My dad is the coolest man in the world. An easy way to check is to put a name there. IF you can, capitalize. "Peter, pass the butter." but you wouldn't say: My Peter is the coolest man in the world.

Hope that helps.

REALLY cool thread!

Gwen,
yes I did the blindfold thing. I thought my "stream of consciousness" was spot-on until I took the blindfold off. We were asked to write some story based on two sentences. I can't remember what they were now. Anyway, what a mess!!! I do that now occasionally. I just want to get the idea out and I type away and worry about correcting later. My problem is that a couple of my fingers are dylslexic. I the teh instead of the, was instead of saw, nad insteand of and. Oh and sometimes my left middle finger likes to add an e where it doesn't belong.

Wendy, we must start a subscription to build you a monument for starting this thread. These posts on grammar issues are priceless.

On the subject of size. Size matters.

I'm a well-proportioned compact man and an excellent companion to gather mushrooms and other things that grow in the ground (I'm closer).

When sales are on I wait until the last day and buy my shoes for a song.

Carlos,
Oh my God!! I was looking for someone to gather mushrooms. I'm so tall and they are sooo small. This is perfect. If you gather the mushrooms, I'll hit the shoe sales for you. Do we have a deal?

Shawna, Gwen, Renee- I love the tip about replacing the name for the title to see if it should be capitalized or not- My brain can remember that one.- and that helps me understand the fewer vs less issue too. THanks for the tips- I'm sure I'll be back with more questions later.

And Carlos, I'm quite jealous of your shoe buying ease. Any monument of mine would need Ronald McDonnald red shoes to be in proportion.

Off-topic for Wendy...

Try Shoes.com and softwalkshoes.com

Both are really good about exchanges and returns.

Wendy wrote: "Shawna, Gwen, Renee- I love the tip about replacing the name for the title to see if it should be capitalized or not- "

About titles. My agent has just returned a stack of chapters I'm preparing for submission to a publisher. One of her gripes is the capitalization of titles. This is her advice:

When using a person's title: it's only capitalized if it precedes the name, as in Speaker Gaylard.
Otherwise it is lowercase: the president, the speaker of the House of Representatives, etc.

Carlos wrote: " Wendy wrote: "Shawna, Gwen, Renee- I love the tip about replacing the name for the title to see if it should be capitalized or not- "

About titles. My agent has just returned a stack of chapters..."

I have the same habit of capitalising titles. It's a hard one to break. I try to remember that 'rule' during the final edit before I send something out the door.

One of the pieces I'm working on is crammed full of 'titled' names and I keep tripping up.

Carlos- but the rule of replacing names to see if it should be capitalised still applies- right? I have no presidents in my story, but I do have a Dr. and moms & dads.


So, what about this sentence:
"Just wait a minute, the doctor should decide that."

I think this should be lowercase since you can't say
"the Thomas" in place of doctor.

Can you use the abbreviation of Dr. without a title- and would that be capitalised?

And following Carlos's advice, the sentence could be changed to: "Just wait a minute, Doctor Thomas will be right in." - right?




Another Question for all you brainy people:

I've read that while European writers usually add an 's' to indicate possesive even if the name ends in an s(like Jonas, so it would be Jonas's thing), but that American writers often leave it out (Jonas' thing).

What is your opinion on the matter?

You can still use that rule: "Just wait a minute, Peter James will be right in."

Argh, the s thing. I have vowed never to end my characters names with s, ever again! Carlos' or Carlos's? I've seen both, by American editors.

I'd also like to hear the feedback on this one.

Shawna wrote: "I'd also like to hear the feedback on this one. "

Okay, let’s get this show on the road.

Once upon a time, there were two cops with two truncheons.

We have four possible cases:

One cop and one truncheon = The cop’s truncheon
One cop and two truncheons = The cop’s truncheons
Two cops and one truncheon = The cops’ truncheon
Two cops and two truncheons = The cops’ truncheons

Ah, you will say, and what about if instead of cops we have platypuses?

Piece of cake.

One platypus and one truncheon = The platypus’s truncheon
One platypus and two truncheons = The platypus’s truncheons
Two platypuses and one truncheon = The platypuses’ truncheon
Two platypuses and two truncheons = The platypuses’ truncheons

Ah, you will say, but platypuses with truncheons?

You’re hard to please, aren’t you?

What of the American publishers that don't use the extra s though? Is it style? is it lazy? is it 100% wrong or is it a trend that will get bigger as language evolves?

It seems that it is safer to go with Carlos's (note the s) examples, but does it follow that the other way is wrong? I await Carlos' (w/o the s) answer!

And any one else too :)

It is correct to write "Carlos's note" and "Carlos's answer". I think the American trend of dropping that final 's' is passing.

Jeanne wrote: "It is correct to write "Carlos's note" and "Carlos's answer". I think the American trend of dropping that final 's' is passing."

I checked the Webster's and the Chicago. The examples I suggested are correct.

House style is another matter. My copy editor uses the serial comma, others don't. I suppose the same could apply to possessives.

Jeanne wrote: "It is correct to write "Carlos's note" and "Carlos's answer". I think the American trend of dropping that final 's' is passing."

One would at least hope so. This English (as I was taught) versus 'American English' is still, after many years living in the US, a bother.

Carlos, what's a serial comma?

Yeah, what's a serial comma? Is it the same as a sociopathic semicolon?

The Serial comma (or the Oxford comma)... also referred to as the Harvard comma... is the comma used immediately before a grammatical conjunction (nearly always and or or; sometimes nor) that precedes the last item in a list of three or more items.

The phrase "Portugal, Spain, and France", for example, is written with the serial comma, while "Portugal, Spain and France", identical in meaning, is written without it.

Renee wrote: "Yeah, what's a serial comma? Is it the same as a sociopathic semicolon?"

No, no, and no. He's the one being held hostage by the Rogue Exclamation Mark and the Sociopathic Comma.

So, do we need to rescue this comma or can we live without it? Those Rogue Exclamation Marks scare me. I don't want to anger them. Popping up all over the place like ninjas, they can get you before you even know they're around.
Why serial comma? Why is it not just a normal comma? Why do they have to use so many strange names? There is only so much space left in my brain.

Help, Auntie Em. Help!

Renee wrote: "So, do we need to rescue this comma or can we live without it? Those Rogue Exclamation Marks scare me. I don't want to anger them. Popping up all over the place like ninjas, they can get you before..."

Yes... just like those runaway sentences that keep breaking out of jail or trains that keep jumping the track.

The little dog laughed to see such a sport....

I have seen these runaway sentences many times. I don't know how they get away like they do, but they sure like my screen.

Generally speaking, in England, no serial comma. As far as I'm aware, in US, serial comma. Canada, Renee, follow British usage.

Ditto the following list for the homicidal semi-colon:
comma; stop; apostrophe and hyphen. (Virginal or otherwise.) In a minute I'll start talking about dependent co-dependent and independent clauses, noun phrases, subjects, predicates and verb heads.

God, it's fun, isn't it?

I love Grammar. I might even put it into the story so someone can kill it.

The one place you don't use grammar is in dialogue. Unless your character is an Oxford professor or a lawyer, (s)he won't speak granmatically.

Make it bloody Renee!

"My, what big teeth you have, Grammar!"

"All the better to punctuate you with, m'dear!"