What do you think?

I don't think I felt that it was really written by Bilbo - but after reading LOTR, it's supposed to be (in a way) isn't it? Isn't "There And Back Again: A Hobbit's Tale" the same as The Hobbit? Or supposed to be?

There and Back Again is the subtitle to The Hobbit.

I haven't read the LOTR yet. Thought I would start with The Hobbit. I was under the impression that it was Gandolf. I think he was close to the party the whole time, and recording what went on for posterity.

The Hobbit is great to start with. I read it before I read LOTR and I'm glad that I did.

The narrator has their own linguistic way of speaking that is different then any of the characters in the book. Later we are told that Bilbo wrote the story... but I am not sure if it was originally written that way. I think when LOTR came along the story turned into Bilbo writing it while with the Elves.

Speaking of writing... I find it very interesting that Tolkien wrote a whole language by himself in this book. The Elvish language and letters. Amazing.

Isn't that incredible, Angie!!! I was utterly amazed when I read (or, at least, tried to comprehend) the Appendix at the end of ROTK! Absolutely incredible - and so beautiful!

Not only does he make his new language he also does a lot of Rhymes for example:

Clap! Snap! The black crack!
Grip, grab! Pinch, nab!
And down, down to Goblin-town
You go, my lad!

Do they sound jolly and friendly? Hardly!

Here's an elf song:

O! Will you be staying
Or will you be flying?
Your ponies are straying!
The daylight is dying!
To fly would be folly,
To stay would be jolly
And listen and hark
Till the end of the dark
To our tune
ha! ha!

This sounds lighthearted and merry, a song of friendship and feasting. Other songs and poems are humorous or descriptive. The dwarves sing a funny song about Bilbo's apprehension when they are washing the dishes at his house after the party following their unexpected arrival:

Dump the crocks in a boiling bowl;
Pound them up with a thumping pole;
And when you've finished, if any are whole,
Send them down the hall to roll!

That's what Bilbo Baggins hates!
So, carefully! carefully with the plates!

I thought that the poems added a lot. Most of them were humorous during a not so humorous time in their adventure. I love all the different kinds of rhymes also. I seem to have missed the elvish language part. Where is it in the book?

I think you can see some of the Elvish language at the front of the book on the map.

The riddles were very good. Do you think Bilbo played a fair game with the riddle of what was in his pocket?

Personally, I think that Gollum was right, and it wasn't a riddle. It was a question. There is a difference. Without the ring, the whole adventure would have gone a TERRIBLY bad route. I can see, though, why Bilbo felt like he had to have the last riddle be a question, so Bilbo could get out and become part of the adventure.

Those are great poems, Angie! I'd forgotten how many are in The Hobbit!:D

Even without reading LOTR, I would have thought it was Bilbo, since it's really about his journey and mostly through his viewpoints.

Angie, you're right - when Tolkien wrote the Hobbit his original idea was that his world would be portrayed as a real history, something that took place long, long ago. Tolkien himself (the narrator) was supposed to have stumbled upon Elves and heard their story, and hence you have the Hobbit. However, the whole Bilbo writing thing was developed more in LOTR - Bilbo wrote the first part of The Red Book and called it There and Back Again, A Hobbit's Tale, but then Frodo and finally Sam wrote the rest after their adventures. If anyone is interested in exactly how this progressed, I'd be happy to look it up in the Tolkien letters when I get home. I forget exactly what happened.

Those who are interested in language and poetry should really consider reading LOTR at some point (and the Silmarillion, if you really like it!) Tolkien more-or-less fully developed Quenya (the old language of the High Elves of Noldor, found in a lot of the names of places and things in LOTR) and Sindarin (the language commonly spoken by the Elves in Middle Earth in the Third Age, the age where both the Hobbit and LOTR take place). He also developed a fair bit of Dwarvish and a teeny bit of the Black Speech and Telerin (another Elvish language). You'll find both more of these jolly rhyming poems and much more complex, beautifully written poetry in LOTR and the Silmarillion. There is also use of both Elvish languages in these books, unlike the Hobbit. Most poetry (actually songs) is written by Elves, though Bilbo becomes quite a writer later. Elves' concept of history and memory is different from ours, since they are immortal and often live for thousands of years. They record a lot of events in lays, which they sing and experience more as if it were happening in the present than as history.

I found it interesting in the Hobbit to read the little jolly teasing songs of the Sindar Elves in Rivendell, because they are definitely not what you would expect from Tolkien's later works. Though Elves are occasionally teasing, this attitude is much less common after the Hobbit.

Judith, GREAT info!! Thanks! How nice of you to summarize all those amazing insights!

I read the LOTR trilogy about... 5 years ago now (gosh - has it been that long!?) and was totally amazed by the "appendix" - I mean - woah! I can't believe Tolkien did all that! I never actually translated any of the poems, but maybe that would be a fun thing to do upon a (hopefully not to distant future) re-read.
And the more I read group comments, the more I think I need to find myself a copy of the the Silmarillion!

Haha, Ann, it's no problem. I'm a huge Tolkien nerd ;-)

I think the appendix, and all the other random material that's available to fans (the ten-volume Histories, for example) are what's so great about the Tolkien universe, and probably why people get so into it. Sure, there are things that we will never know (GLORFINDEL) and gaps that will always be a bit puzzling, but there is so much information provided, because he really did spend his life playing in this universe, and it's so fully developed that we can all spend chunks of our lifetimes learning and exploring and drawing connections and just generally being geeks. Also, the fact that he had a son willing to spend such a huge chunk of *his* life editing and compiling and sorting through his father's work is a particular shade of awesome.

As for the Silmarillion, well, it is definitely quite long and not as linear and plot-driven as LOTR. I always think of the three "books" in a chain: Hobbit (all plot), LOTR trilogy (plot + mythology), Silmarillion (mythology). Reading the Silmarillion can be a bit like reading the Bible: there are stories contained therein, and points at which the plot is quite compelling, but other points at which you kind of lose the thread. It isn't one big story; like mythology it spans very many years and tells many stories and since the Elves are immortal you'll sometimes have recurring characters and a "who the Hell is he?" moment. I've actually been working for several years on compiling an index of the universe by person, place, and thing (kind of like the fabulous online Encyclopedia of Arda, but more complete, less interactive, and organized differently). That way, for example, I could read the Silmarillion and say okay, character X, who is he? Oh, right! There are, of course, commercially-published indices for this sort of thing as well. If you're interested in the mythology and history though, I'd definitely try to make your way through the Silmarillion. If you then re-read the LOTR trilogy, you'll practically dance in your seat at how much more you understand, especially about Aragorn's history and the Elves and such.

Really, I'm just a control freak and love to index and understand things, haha. Let me know if you have any questions and I'd be happy to be of service in whatever way I can :-D

Yes Judith... I think you love LOTR more than myself if that is possible!

Wow, I can totally see where an "Index of Characters" would be way helpful! Frankly, I found myself confused a few times reading the trilogy (though, I think that was more my fault for being inattentive than anything else).

I agree that it's so incredible what Tolkien created during his life - it's this entire, well-rounded world, and I can't begin to imagine how he even began such a thing!

I might have asked this someplace else, but have either of you (Angie or Judith... well, okay, or anyone I guess;>) read The Children of Húrin? If you have, what are your thoughts? Is it more like a LOTR or Silmarillion?

I have it but I haven't read it yet - I'll let you know! I assume Silmarillion based on which story it is and the fact that it's one of the posthumously published books, but we'll see.

Okay. I'll be looking forward to your review when you do read it:)