I've got a question for all the ladies in the group:
Do you prefer fantasy novels with protagonists who are women or does it not matter?

I find that I'm more drawn to a fantasy novel if I know that the main character is a woman. Don't get me wrong, if a book is written well, I'll read it, no matter who the protagonist is. But sometimes I feel like I can relate more to a woman. What do you all think?

And so as to not leave the gentlemen out, feel free to share your opinions. Do you prefer reading about male protagonists?

I personally have no preference to the gender of the protagonist. I prefer a well written book, and I look more for an interesting plot than who the protagonist is. Of course, it helps sometimes when there are two strong characters of opposite gender involved in the story.

I not only prefer women protagonists but usually women authors. Very very rarely does a male author write women characters well. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head.

Let me be the first to inject a manly note to this thread :-)

On balance, I think I prefer female protagonists. I haven't done a statistical analysis and I don't think it's overly skewed one way or another but when I run down a list of faves, there seem to be quite a few women:

Signy Mallory, Downbelow Station
Pyanfar Chanur, The Pride of Chanur (not, technically, a human female but a female nonetheless)
Erin, The Swordswoman
Lady, The Black Company
Tattersail/Silverfox, Gardens of the Moon
Eilonwy, Prydain Chronicles

You get the idea.

I actually don't have an official preference, but when I think of my favorite characters from fantasy, most of them are male. Interesting.

I've never once chosen a book based on the sex of the protagonist. I like books like Mistborn where both sexes are represented as competient etc. It is still very much a "man's world" and most protagonists are men and probably will be for a long time yet. The only thing that would bother me in the "male / female" thing is a woman who would be portrayed as exceptionally well at physical combat. I never read Helsinger (sp) but in the movie I groan when I see a woman clad in tight leather beating the snot out of a man. Not very likely.

I dont care which gender it is but i confess that reading female protagonist specially when they are in their teens can be annoying.

Simply because many of the fantasy authors are male and some of them dont know how to write female heroes as well.

When i read Tanith Lee writing female main character it was vastly different in quality from the male author fantasy books i read.

I want good writing -- I don't care what the character's gender is, so long as it's done well.

That said, I think there's a very real challenge to writing female characters. I like books in settings where, historically, women would have had very different roles than the men, so it can seem very artificial to find a woman in a traditionally male role, and that has to be written well. I'd rather have male protagonists than an obviously "OMG-I-need-a-strong-female-character-quick-stuff-this-in" reading experience; give me quality over gender.

And there's a lot of pressure on the writer, too, about female characters. No one howls about men in limited roles, but God help the author who shows a woman doing dishes! So there can be a tendency to artificially buff or butch up a female character to avoid feminist outcry, which doesn't read true.

Anyone who knows me knows that I am fully behind the idea that women are capable and competent! :-) And yet I'm struggling to edit a piece right now, because it can read a little damaging to women -- the two male protagonists are older and veterans of battle, while she is younger and inexperienced. This can make her read naive and less competent at times, but it's an integral part of her character and development. A male character in the same position wouldn't raise eyebrows, but a female character has to be considered for political message.

Tough for authors.

But it comes down to the quality of writing. Better a good male character than a bad female character, and if they're both good characters, then bring me more!

It doesnt matter as long as I like the book

It doesn't matter to me if the main character is male or female. I can find things to relate to in either gender. I do like it when there is a strong female character thrown in though and they're not just the damsels in distress type.

Goofing with gender roles in fantasy bugs me. Men & womens' historical roles didn't just happen by accident. There are physical differences in the sexes. Women are fully as capable as men in many ways, but not strength. Women have a lot more fat than men. Let's them take care of babies when times are hard. They don't have the muscle density or the bone structure of men. We evolved that way for a LONG time.

In Future Shock, Alvin Toffler breaks down our evolution in a neat way. Take 800, 60 year lifetimes & lay them end to end. That's about how long modern man has been around. It's only in the last 30 of those lifetimes that most of us have been out of the caves. (Toffler's number was '30', as I recall, not mine. Something like 5% of our history.)In any case, it's been a really short time since we got beyond the 'Brute Force & Massive Ignorance' stage of our existence - if we have - arguably the last couple of lifetimes.

You can have slim & sexy ladies or you can have big, tough, sword wielding ones. There are a few of the latter around, but very few compared to men. Unless they are enhanced by magic or engineering, a cute girl is not going to handle a sword like a big, beefy guy & certainly can't go head to head with one in a brawl without a lot of extra, special training & room.

A woman isn't going to carry around the amount of armor a man does. In the midst of a battle, where weight & strength count (no room to be agile), she is going to get trampled under if she's allowed there. Maybe as an archer - they weren't in the press. Women can shoot a bow as accurately as a man - even my wife, chesty as she is - but she can't shoot an arrow as far & she's a pretty big girl who works on a farm.

No macho man soldier/barbarian is going to notice a pretty girl's dress style much less know the name of it. Nor would he know anything beyond basic colors. He won't know the color 'chartreuse' - yellow-green is a more likely description. He's interested in the package, not the wrapping. He's wired that way.

Mixed-sex armies are another problem. Camp followers weren't generally women for men to be jealous about. The few that were caused plenty of trouble between competitive, jealous men. Bored, scared men in an armed camp probably aren't the best companions for women who expect to be treated respectfully.

Jim wrote: "Maybe as an archer - they weren't in the press. Women can shoot a bow as accurately as a man - even my wife, chesty as she is - but she can't shoot an arrow as far & she's a pretty big girl who works on a farm."

I always love when an author tries to be "realistic" and so doesn't let a female character handle a sword -- too much strength required! -- and instead makes her an archer. Yes, women can be archers too, but it's not automatically easier than swordsmanship. Hello, have you ever looked at some of those historical bows? Considered the draw on those things?! Later sport archery is different.

Sword STYLE counts a huge degree. I could out-fence my husband -- thrusting weapons require speed, reflexes, dexterity, agility -- but he can handle a claymore in ways that I can only dream of doing. A trained woman could (and once in a great while, did) take down a man in a rapier duel, while a warrior princess with a giant cutting blade is going to have a lot more trouble against a similarly armed and trained man.

As long as it's a well defined and believeable character, I don't have a preference of which gender it is, but it has to be believeable.
For example, I like the strong female roles created by Marion Zimmer Bradley with Morgaine in The Mists of Avalon & Cassandra in The Firebrand. Neither were brandishing swords and beating up men; they had more believeable ways of being strong. Traits of strength I can aspire to. Women being physically stronger is possible in some instances but not the everyday norm.
Take Manda Scott's Boudica in her series starting with Dreaming the Eagle. She had physical strength but it came from a lifetime of practice. Her real strength was cunning strategy on the battlefield, setting traps and ambushes, and more importantly, the faith her warriors had in her leadership, most of who were men.
I don't expect fantasy to be 'real' but I do expect an aspect realism.

The only opinion that I have about this is if the story is good or not, I don's care whether the author is male or female. With that in mind, some of the best books I've read are from female authors like Gail Martin. Also on a bit of a side note, in my experience it seems that female authors usually go after more of the sexual side of things. I.E. The Quantum Gravity series written by Justina Robinson, the books are good, it just seems odd that the book has SO many different sex scenes; it actually gets somewhat annoying.

I don't have a real preference but I don't want to be offended. If ALL the women are pretty useless idiots I'm not going to enjoy the story regardless of protagonist gender.

Ultimately it's skill of writing. I don't have any problem with female fighters if the training and experience is there. I do think it's much more creative to find other ways for the protagonist to solve their problems. One of the things I like about dart-thorton's The Ill-Made Mute series is that the female protagonist, lacking physical strength and training, has to use her brain. She doesn't suddenly become a crack swordswoman able to save the day.

Jackie wrote: "Neither were brandishing swords and beating up men; they had more believeable ways of being strong. Traits of strength I can aspire to."

Jackie, you expressed exactly what I was thinking when I saw this thread. I hate when people equate "strong women" with violence and sword-wielding, and so throw in some token "woman warrior". First of all, its unrealistic physically. Second of all, its insulting to women to insinuate that their real strengths...emotional strength, brains, intuition, caring/healing, etc...are not worthwhile. I feel like I come across so many women fantasy readers whose view of "strong female characters" reduces them to those who "kick butt".

Interesting topic Kelsey! Thanks for starting it up!

I actually learned a bit of swordplay with some boys. it wasn't rapiers. It was hand a half swords. Rather large, honestly. It was far from easy and I was definitely outmatched in strength. In skill and speed, I won easily. I couldn't swing as fast or as hard, but I could twist the sword faster and I thought of different ways to use it that made it capable for me to beat them as often as they beat me.

I'm not terribly big or strong, nor am I the slim pretty thing. Like most women, I'm somewhere in the middle. I can hold my own against the swordsmen, though I will lose as often as I win. I think a female swordswoman is believable. (For the record, I can't draw a longbow or a recurve to save my life). (Edited note: I think if it were real swordplay, my tactics and use of the blade were far more dangerous than theirs. I think that speaks to why men are generally better at it. What I had to do to win was deadly in some ways.)

In terms of protagonists, I like both. I think I prefer women maybe just a little more, but my favourite characters are almost all men. If it works well and reads well, I'll probably enjoy it. :)

I tend to like protagonists that are the same sex as the author, I think. If I don't get a strong sense of identification with the protagonist, I usually don't like the book. Too often authors don't do the opposite sex well.

Laura - Fencing isn't the same (nor what I was referring to) as toting 50 lbs of armor & swinging a sword like Viktoria describes.

I said 'in the press'. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I meant the battles where a whole bunch of people on each side run into each other & are all very crowded together. The place where the Roman's or Greek shield wall worked wonders. That's a place where discipline, strength & size was what was needed - like the front line on a football field. I hate it when authors put a woman in there, especially a woman they've described as slender.

I liked the way Robert E. Howard handled Valeria in his Conan series. She didn't wear the same armor or carry as big a sword, but she was every bit the warrior.

I like Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake. She kicks a lot of butt. For sheer will power, endurance & courage, I don't know that anyone beats her or Sookie Stackhouse. Neither of them goes head to head with men using pure muscle. They use their other strengths.

Jim wrote: "Goofing with gender roles in fantasy bugs me. Men & womens' historical roles didn't just happen by accident. There are physical differences in the sexes. Women are fully as capable as men in man..."

If I had wanted my stories and roles to be historically accurate, I would have picked up reading Alternate History novels, not Fantasy.

I think the point in an author having a female protagonist is not to show that "Women can be just as good as men" but rather that "This woman is just as good as a man". It adds a new dimension to the character. Yes, they are frequently not as strong, but they make up for it by being a little quicker, or a little more clever, or a better planner. It forces the character to not rely on brawn so much, and to find alternative means to compensate. I can see what you mean about not putting her in the front line, where you typically see everyone on one side fall down while the other side pushes through when they first join battle. That is all about strength and bracing yourself for the collision. But I see no reason why a woman who has been trained in sword and armor can't be in that same mass of fighting people, just a little further back. Once the two army's are mixed together, the forward progression slows, and in some instances comes to a stop. It is far less about strength and much more about speed and the accuracy of your strikes at this point. The faster you are, the more you can attack and the more you can block. Strength comes into play very little in that. In fact,in most battles, "fancy" sword play is pretty useless. You don't have time for parries, spins, or fancy footwork. If you don't want anyone getting you from behind, you need to do away with the guy in front of you with as few strikes as possible, and I can see where a well trained woman would be able to thrive in that battle.

Myself, I enjoy it either way. Kahlan from Sword of Truth is a strong, skilled woman, and I enjoyed reading about her battles in the series. Likewise, Rand is an extremely skilled swordsman in addition to being a channeler, and the battles he has fought blade to blade in are amazing. I am unable to say which of the two makes a better hero or warrior, most likely neither. All I care about is that the characters are well written, and have excellent explanations for their skill. We saw Rand earn his Heron-mark blade through hard work, and Kahlan's father was a King and warrior chosen because of the training he could give her for battle. The same goes for magic using heroes. A well written character is not tarnished in my eyes by sex. It is the writing that makes me hate or love them.

Jim wrote: "Laura - Fencing isn't the same (nor what I was referring to) as toting 50 lbs of armor & swinging a sword like Viktoria describes."

Exactly! Yes, I understood, and I'm sorry if I wasn't clear myself. "Fantasy" covers a lot of ground, more than just sword & sandal, and it's quite possible to have a realistic woman warrior appropriate to the setting.

This is where historical research comes in handy again, even for fantasy. Rapiers don't belong in a crash of thousands; a woman there would have to be unusually suited to the situation or else engaged in another fashion.

For the record, I'm 5'7" and 135 lbs. I have pretty good strength for my frame, though not exceptional. I did try some of my husband's work w/ his claymore. In that world, I'd have to be a mage! :)

Laura wrote: "..."Fantasy" covers a lot of ground..."

Now there's an understatement! ;-)  I've seen discussions on that which have certainly expanded my horizons & I've been reading it for over 40 years.

You're the same size as my wife when I married her. She was exercising a dozen horses a day & running her own barn at the time, so she'd never been thinner or in better shape.

Robert, I see your point on historical accuracy & I can only say that my belief can be suspended in many ways by fantasy novels, but there are some places/things where I can't. A personal failing, I suppose. I have no trouble with alien 'women' from another dimension that have mercury for blood & make superman look like a wimp, if it is well written.

I have trouble when an author presents me a 'regular' girl (often a slim, trim hottie) who can go head to head with Conan.

Jim wrote: "You're the same size as my wife when I married her. She was exercising a dozen horses a day & running her own barn at the time, so she'd never been thinner or in better shape."

When my husband was most active with his claymore practice, I was at the stable 5 days a week and at my own peak of fitness. My equestrian legs could beat him handily at the adduction weight machine -- the only place I could outlift my ex-quarterback hubby -- but he could still bench press more than double my weight. I didn't get to trump him physically 'til we started fencing. /grin/

That kind of thing makes you think about writing physical conflict. I *know* I'm not gonna out-wrestle him, so I have to be quick, agile, and sneaky. Same for female warriors; if I'm going up against barbarian Pex the Mighty, I'm going to wave my big sword to taunt him and then demonstrate that it's actually magic. And can work as a range weapon.

Unrealistic substitutions happen with male characters too, unfortunately. "Oh, I'm too small and slight (or elfin) to be a swordsman, so I'm an archer. With a hundred-fifty-pound bow."

I finally found a story with a good female warrior (using a style suited to her strengths) and a male healer tagging along, waiting to be useful. Great gender reversal without any sense of the author trying to write a reversal or trying to make a point -- in other words, a good story, not a political treatise. Yay! I wish authors would worry more about good characters and story and less about Affirmative Action calling them out. ("Oops, is this woman in a traditionally female role? Need to change that and make her a CEO or general instead. Drat, I forgot to include a sympathetic gay character. Is everyone in this party the same color? Need to fix that.") Write good stories, and if the characters are right for the story, they are right for the world.

Your wife and I would probably have a field day discussing another common fantasy failing, that horses are merely sports cars which poop. :-) They don't need rest, or decent food, or direction -- set them running and they'll do it in a straight line 'til they reach the next city or a cliff, whichever comes first!

Laura wrote: "Your wife and I would probably have a field day discussing another common fantasy failing, that horses are merely sports cars which poop. :-) They don't need rest, or decent food, or direction -- set them running and they'll do it in a straight line 'til they reach the next city or a cliff, whichever comes first!..."

Oh my, another hot button! Yes, we grew up on horseback & that is a VERY hot topic in books & movies. Marg is reading Robert Jordan's series right now & set down one book, saying she HAD TO TAKE A BREAK NOW!!! Turns out some archer had just stored his bow by shoving it under the girth. No one had a problem with that, either. <sigh>

Judith Tarr & I had a conversation about how far horses could be pushed about 20 years ago when she was on the GEnie BBS. She was into endurance riding - too into it, IMO. She blasted me when I said she was riding too far & hard in one of her books. I can't stand 300 mile trips on horseback that take only a week & has the horse ready for a return trip the next morning after eating some grain.

My wife especially hates TV/movies where they swap out horses a lot with incorrect markings or gender, yet want us to believe it's the same one. "How can anyone believe that's the same horse?!!!"

We're in agreement on the guy/gal thing.

For me i dont care if a female character is an uber strong Conan type character.

I just want a believeable,interesting character you can care about.

Excellent topic, people!

I don't have too much to add, other than to say as a writer, I enjoy writing both male and female characters and I tend to have equal numbers of both sexes as main characters. As a reader, all I care about is if the writing is good and the story makes me want to come back for more.

Very interesting discussion on the topic of female warriors. I tend to create more egalitarian fantasy worlds for my books, where sex roles are not so rigid. I do include women soldiers in my armies, though at a much lower percentage than men, just as our modern armies have women soldiers on the front lines, though I grant they're not infantry or in the tanks. I imagine my female soldiers using their speed and agility rather than brute strength in combat.

It is called "fantasy" literature for a reason. Real world rules can be stretched, bent, even broken, because fantasy worlds are not based entirely on real world rules. As long as a writer has the necessary skills required to tell a compelling story, I can suspend my disbelief for just about anything.

Jim wrote: "I tend to like protagonists that are the same sex as the author, I think. If I don't get a strong sense of identification with the protagonist, I usually don't like the book. Too often authors do..."

I understand what you mean by "in the press." Perhaps I just don't read many fantasy novels with massive battles involving armies or such. I am accustomed to smaller battles in which moving about is fairly easy. And for the record.. in 50 lbs of armour, I would have DIED! lol!

Oh, and as one that worked on a horse farm, I was incredibly annoyed at the use of the girth as a bow storage myself. I talked myself into believing that he had sewn a sort of holder for it. It made it more bearable for me.

There was something I was going to mention about The Name of the Wind as well concerning horses, but we will discuss that soon enough ;)

Becky wrote: "I actually don't have an official preference, but when I think of my favorite characters from fantasy, most of them are male. Interesting. "

same here, im not even sure if i HAVE read one with a female lead....

@_@

I don't have a gender preference in main character as long as it's a well developed main character. I have noticed that I tend to strongly prefer women authors though. I have found that I like their character development better (not always, but often).

Jon wrote: "I not only prefer women protagonists but usually women authors. Very very rarely does a male author write women characters well. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. "

The only male writer I know of who writes believable women is Robert Heinlein, that's one of the reasons I like his books.

My favorite female lead has to be Phedre of the first three Kushiel's Legacy books, she battles using treachery, politics and feminine wiles rather than brawn.

Heinlein & believable women characters? From the discussions about "Stranger in a Strange Land" I thought most ladies disagreed with that. I always liked his women, but I'm a man, so I'm biased.

Jim wrote: "Heinlein & believable women characters? From the discussions about "Stranger in a Strange Land" I thought most ladies disagreed with that. I always liked his women, but I'm a man, so I'm biased."

To really enjoy Heinlein's writing of women one needs to read
I Will Fear No Evil or Time Enough for Love or The Cat Who Walks Through Walls or Friday

I don't consciously care if the protagonist is male or female, as long as I like them and they're well-written. Although I will say that I have a "strong women" shelf (by which I mean inner strength), but nothing similar for men. So maybe a preference for female protagonists is rolling around inside somewhere.

As a fantasy author, this has been so interesting to me, because I have this conversation with my male fantasy writing friends a lot! I tend to write female protagonists, and while they say this does not bother them at all, fantasy written by a woman is off-putting. Thus I have chosen a generic pen name (L. R. Jeffrey). But I am so grateful for the people that have weighed in on this to give me a different perspective. And I laughed out loud about the horse conversation. How true.

I'm with the vast majority - I don't choose a book based on the sex of the main character.

I will add my two sense to the fighting though - I studied martial arts for a long time, and traveled in some pretty hard-core circles. The women who excelled at open hand combat were NOT the big muscle-y gals, but were most often very trim. The serious ones trained so much that there was barely any fat on their bodies, and were typically sleek little agile things, and they were few and far between. There strength lay in speed, agility, and mental attack. They were as dangerous men, but in vastly different ways, and they knew it.
The best of the men were usually like elephant bulls - very strong, very fast, and capable of stomping their enemy with one fell blow. The women were compared to various things, but my favorite was Anaconda. They said this chick couldn't kill you with her fists, but if she snuck in close and got you in her coils, you were going down.

So maybe that's my favorite: when authors keep a bit of limitations on their sexes, but play up their strengths (and weaknesses).

Doesn't matter to me whether the protagonist is male or female. The most important aspect is that the character(s) is believable. That said, I do find myself pleasantly surprised on the rare occasion when I find a well written female protagonist, in any genre, written by a male. It does seem women are much better at capturing the essence/spirit of both male and female existence! Just MHO!

Kev

Totally agree with you Kevin! Ten years ago a kid I worked with handed me Harry Potter. The young boy perspective was so well done that I just assumed the author was a man, and I was so surprised, and very impressed when I found out otherwise!

Yes, I do.

I don't choose books conscieusly by the gender, but I have noticed a female author or protagonist gets easier my interest. The effect isn't very strong, more like 10 % more interest - and it doesn't say I will read the book, it just gets my interest.

I am quite "chauvinistic" - the new campaign for sportswear where men and women are to compede - sure, it gets me going. I would do a lot to help women win, even start jogging LOL (I weigh over 200 pounds/100 kilos and haven't run for years.) I'm happy Joanne Rowling is a woman, and I get upset when the published told her to use her initials so that this fact would be fidden, because boys weren't supposed to read books written by women. I think she should insist to change the name. I am not happy about the fact that so many protagonists are men, even in books written by women. I am a member of a Tolkien society, and where men have no difficulties finding themselves an alias from books, women do. A lot of people were complaining about Tolkien's "misogyny", because all the 9 ring bearers were male. This was so upsetting, the manuscripta decided to give Arwen a bigger, more important role.

I am sure that most women are "chauvinistic" in this way, they just wouldn't admit it.

It's fantasy, not historical novels. Of course, the laws of physic shouldn't be violated, but it usually doesn't bother me, if the story is good.
Most fantasy writers don't have the slightest understanding of the proper care and use of weapons or so, but I don't have much understanding of it either. (I just wish I had).

"I couldn't swing as fast or as hard, but I could twist the sword faster and I thought of different ways to use it that made it capable for me to beat them as often as they beat me."
Exactly.

I hate the "This woman is just as good as a man" thinking. As if women weren't as good as men in general :-> As if it's only the things where men are better that count, the facts, that men are generally stronger and faster and bigger, and can carry a lot of armor and weaponry.
On the other hand, that's the attitude of the society today. I can keep telling me that I'm just as good as any man, but deep down I don't quite believe it... 40 years of programming is hard to overcome. So - born are the fantasy Mary Sues who are not only as good as men but better. (She is also a perfect woman... therefore slender, buxom and born with perfect makeup...) So she is stronger and faster, will KO a male mountain of muscles with one blow and then sit down and drink another bottle of whisky as if nothing happened, without loosing an ounce of her inborn femininity, grace and sweetness. :-) Reminds me of a space monster that looks like a tiny furball, but that swallows elephants without even having a slightly rounded tummy afterwards...
I have to admit that there's something with these women that please me :-) There's someone who is like me (a woman) who CAN do all that I have been told I cannot, may not, shall not, are not allowed to do... I can't, but she can.

Besides, it's fantasy. I love Terry Pratchett, and his characters are all more or less caricatures. I EXPECT to meet Mary Sues and Gary Stus, when I read fantasy.

P.S. I think a man can create a credible female character just as well as a woman can create a credible male character. We aren't really that different.

Ketutar wrote: "P.S. I think a man can create a credible female character just as well as a woman can create a credible male character. We aren't really that different."

I agree with that wholeheartedly. I think the writers who have a hard time writing characters of the opposite gender are the ones that try to make them think a lot differently. Last year, I read a book called "Polaris" by Jack McDevitt. The narrator is a woman named Chase Kolpath who is a top-notch spacecraft pilot no longer pilots, but works for an antiquities dealer. She is quite believable in all the action scenes, but she drove me nuts by constantly comparing her level of attractiveness to other women or commenting on how good she looked or telling us how attracted the men she encounters are to her. It seemed to me that McDevitt was trying to make it clear that his androgynously-named character was female, but her inner thoughts were incredibly annoying and unrealistic. He would have done much better just to leave that stuff out.

I seem to have an unconsious preference for female writers and protagonists. Grath Nix is one who has written a really good female protagonist, Naomi Novik has written a good male one, Lackeys Joust series is a good male protagonist too, and she has writted 1 or 2 other males too.

Before I go off on a tangent-- which I totally plan on doing-- I'd like to say I prefer good female characters. Example? I would say, Alanna, Keladry of Mindelan, Beka Cooper, and Alianne of Pirate's Swoop. Who are these people? They are all women writen by Tamora Pierce in the land of Tortall.

My favorite is Keladry of Mindelan. Why? Because she is taller than most of the boys, not as pretty as the girls, loves her animals, likes to wear skirts, etc. She's a mixture, as almost all girls are. When she goes to try to be a knight, she's not treated fairly. And Tamora Pierce makes is clear that though Kel has had some training with a glaive SHE IS NOT INITIALLY AS STRONG AS THE BOYS. Those who don't want her to go for her shield fight with her and though she gets the worser end, she still fights. She trains to make her arms stronger. Trains to ride a huge horse-- to be as good as the boys. But she makes SURE they see she's a woman. She wears skirts to dinner and events, reminds them she's a girl who wants to protect her home with a knight's shield, not a girl trying to be only as good as a man.

That is what female characters should be. I sometimes dislike books where the female characters are weak, cry-ie things who do little more than get into trouble and get saved. You can give me examples but I can find this in almost any fantasy book I read. No matter what magic powers she has-- this is an author's compensation for the fact that she's a woman because she needs an extra edge-- or other psychic, nearly useless skills. I may be generalizing a bit here but I am mostly right. While I can deal with such characters in the background, them in the forefront of serious fantasy or sci-fi ticks me off.

I advise you to read Tamora Pierce's books-- not necessarily Circle of Magic. I don't know what goes on at that end of the spectrum. Just about the woman of Tortall and their strength and what they do to keep up with the boys-- maybe a little bit because they have to but mostly because of something else. Justice, protecting the small (Keladry), etc. Reasons just as good as a man.

(I may seem bitter. I probably am. Can't help it. I like strong female characters and can't stand the weak ones. Funny I chose the genre that refuses to admit that women can do more than sit at home waiting for the hero to return while they knit socks-- at least let them make chainmail or something.)

I think you are thinking of romance there, I've read plenty of strong women books in fantasy. Jude Fisher's The Rose of the World is a girly strong charater like you describe, and Karen Miller's girls are hardly weak.

I would say I'm another person who doesn't really care whether the protagonist is male or female, as long as it's a good, believable and relatable character on some level. That said, I have tended to avoid some urban fantasy with female protagonists because I've noticed a trend where they turn into soft-porn books, and that's just not my thing. There are some exceptions to this, of course...

As to authors writing protagonists of the opposite sex... it just depends. I think Gregory Maguire writes good female leads, for instance. Neil Gaiman writes good women, though they're generally secondary. Someone mentioned Pratchett, and Granny Weatherwax is definitely my favorite. Charles deLint has written some good female leads, too... But then there's Marla Mason, written by T. A. Pratt, who doesn't quite have the write 'feel' to her...

Conversely, The Chronicles of the Necromancer is written by a woman and has a male lead, and I think she does a good job with it, and with her female secondaries. Um, Rowling has been mentioned as writing a good male lead.

I think the ones that annoy me most, actually, are generally female leads written by female authors. Again this depends, but these seem to be the ones were it becomes a romance/bodice ripper type book or where I find the leading lady to be rather weak-willed and/or generally annoying - for example like in Wraith. I found the lead of Wraith SO irritating. It was all "he's so hot" and "eww, that's gross" and "I want my mommy". I found it to sort of be more sexist than the stereotypical damsel in distress, in a weird kind of way... Eh, I can't explain it, but if I met her in real life I definitely wouldn't want anything to do with her, and, for some reason, I've found these types of girls more from female authors than from male ones.

I like to think I write pretty good female characters, but I've never had a woman read my books and tell me that. I really just write people and they happen to be male or female. Their gender is important but it isn't the defining aspect of their entire lives, necessarily.

A short excerpt from A Warrior Made:
(Janosec has just been mildly wounded in a fight with a creature and is being healed. Mirani is a woman they just met and fought the creature with.)

Janosec looked mildly disappointed. “No scar?”
Mirani rolled her eyes, no words necessary.
Tarkas, quite focused on his Songcraft, appeared not to have heard, but the remaining slashes left little pink lines behind, proof of Janosec’s prowess. “Is that better?”
The patient glared at his healer. “I earned these,” he protested, stung by some imagined criticism, “They mean something.”
“Indeed they do, woodcutter,” retorted Mirani, not at all impressed, “They mean you think with your testicles.” She strode off in a huff.
Janosec was all set to follow, but Tarkas’ hand on his chest brought him up short. “She does not need to know, nephew,” he cautioned him, his voice soft, “Either she would not believe you or she would, which could in some ways be worse, as we are without guards save each other.”
“But Uncle—“
“The political and dynastic considerations are irrelevant, anyway,” Tarkas continued, “Your instincts were right and you did the honorable thing. Don’t make it dishonorable just to impress a girl.” He paused, a slight smile on his face. “You would just prove her right.”
Tarkas hefted his pack and followed, with Janosec in the rear, scrutinizing his scars and moving the ax experimentally. Mirani, despite her strong start, had not gotten very far ahead in fact, and it took him little time to catch up. “You are going to tell me,” she predicted as he approached, “That I was overly harsh. That there are overriding considerations about which I know nothing.” Her sing-song delivery left no doubt of her opinion of such a patronizing attitude.
Tarkas grinned. “Actually, you were right. He was thinking with his testicles.” The choking next to him was perhaps louder than the offended “Hey!” from behind, but it was a near thing. “He is a man, after all, and men have testicles, just as women have wombs. Most men do think with them and very little else, and will judge those scars accordingly.” He shrugged eloquently. “It is not as if they were the only things he thought with.”

I'm personally one of those who doesn't care about the sex of any of the characters in a book. As long as they are well written (more emphasis put on them being people and not "male" or "female") then I'm usually as happy as I can be.

Now obviously there will be reasons for the choice of one gender or another, but other than the basics needed for things to make sense (if a character is giving birth then she's probably female, etc), I don't really have any preference.

I also have to admit to being one of those who finds the romantic elements in a lot of books annoying unless it is something that fits into the plot well. Just because they are a male/female (or gender mix of your choice) doesn't mean they have to be fated to be attracted to one another. I've known, worked with and been close friends with many men in my life and have never been drawn to them romantically.

blackrose wrote: "I would say I'm another person who doesn't really care whether the protagonist is male or female, as long as it's a good, believable and relatable character on some level. That said, I have tended..."

Romance is definitely one of those things I can't stand. Yup. Hate it. I like my romance as a side to fantasy or not at all. Because otherwise it does get cheesy and annoying and strong female characters turn either weak and domestic or...weak.

Hold on. Exception. Manhunting by Jennifer Cruise. That was insanely funny. I'm laughing just thinking about it. But the female retained her strength at the end-- at least, I think she did. It's been a while.

I like my romance as a side to fantasy or not at all.

Then you'll like the romance (such as it is) in my second novel, A Warrior Made. The male romantic lead spends most of the book afraid of her. I wasn't sure while I was writing it whether I wanted it to become anything more or not, and I'm still not. Book 3, currently my WIP, may redefine their relationship due to forces outside of their control.

Jon wrote: "I not only prefer women protagonists but usually women authors. Very very rarely does a male author write women characters well. In fact, I can't think of one off the top of my head. "

You got me trying to think of some male authors who portrayed women well...And it is a bit hard. I thought A. Lee Martinez's A Nameless Witch was well done. I liked a lot of Simon R. Green's female characters too.

As for the propagandist subject....Girls, boys, women, men, it doesn't matter to me what gender they are. I prefer ALL the characters be propagandists...But that's from watching soap operas for 24 years, I'm sure.

Jim wrote: "Laura wrote: "Your wife and I would probably have a field day discussing another common fantasy failing, that horses are merely sports cars which poop. :-) They don't need rest, or decent food, or ..."

Jim and Laura - really enjoyed the discussion re Fantasy horses - which is exactly what they are a fantasy! They "gallop" everywhere for hours on end with no need for food, rest or hoof care. I wish my horse worked like that!

Hoof care? That's rarely done. I think I've read one fantasy novel where a horse got shoed & was sore from it. Wish I could remember which one it was. It deserves recognition.

Did you hear about the 21 polo ponies that died in Florida?!!! How horrible.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/04/20/dead.ho...
I would guess it had to be someone poisoning them in some manner for so many to die so quickly. How sick.