Sweet! I could use a cookie. There's nothing to eat in the house until I go shopping tonight.

Oh no, Sarah, please -- if you are a participant in True North, vote! (You are, so yes, you are supposed to vote). The mix of "i" and "you" is exactly what I asked for.

You get a cookie :)

Are we not supposed to vote this time if we already did? I'll delete my post if so. I did a weird mix of *YOU* ought to read and *I* ought to read this time.

Bruce, darling, I am owned by 6 cats. I know far too much about the whole masochist thing already. Books are EASY.

Can you spell masochist?

Good work, and I promise, PROMISE, not to use an links this time. I have learned my lesson.

I have been working on the list for the shelf. I have 27 books that received either multiple votes, or are by the same author who appears multiple times. This leaves me with 23 spots on the shelf, but 80 books to chose from (80 1-vote, no repeat author books)

So -- here's what I think. I'm going to post the whole list back on the voting thread (a poll with 80 books would be excessive, not to mention 23 such polls). Anyone who participates in True North can pick 10 of them and post it as a vote there. I'll let it run a week. Then I'll figure out how many books got enough votes to fill the rest of the shelf slots.

Fair enough?

Thus we have Cliff and Monarch notes -- for those things you should have read but just can't make yourself actually read. ;)

Sort of like condensed soup -- for kids, not as good as the real thing, but it does the job.

I think some of these are "ought to have read" rather than "ought to read". They make way better parts of your past than future companions.

Hahahaha.

Yep. I am currently in a zero interest in Proust place myself.

You can't make me read Proust. I don't care how many madeleines you offer me...

That's a pretty good list!

I'm still tallying the votes for the bookshelf, but I have a list of "Ought To" authors!

Jane Austen
Wilkie Collins
Fyodor Dostoevsky
George Elliot
E.M. Forster
Henry James
James Joyce
Haruki Muakami
Vladimir Nabokov
Marcel Proust
Leo Tolstoy

All appeared on the list multiple times with different books.

Haha with Lolita the only reason I finished it was because it was for a book club. Not only is the narrator repulsive but so is Lolita AND her mother. There is not one likable character in that whole book! Still, I admit it was a great book.

I just put Pale Fire on my to-read list. Which is soon to out number my read list. Argggg.

Bruce, I'm so glad the book is picking up for you. Yeah, I found the politics and such just fascinating. And also, the character of the father is to show just how stagnant and wrong that aspect of society is.

I did read the whole trilogy, but can't remember much...don't want to say much since I don't know what happens in each book, so I might inadvertently spoil something.

That probably would help, Sherri, reminding myself that we're supposed to be repulsed by the narrator (but then, as my mind now wonders, can we assume that?) I think I'd only try reading it again if it was a group read so I could discuss my reactions instead of have them swirl around my head! It often heads the lists of favorite books so I'd like to find out why.

Oh, and I'm glad there will be more lists!

And Bruce (I realize I'm not sure of the etiquette for responding to two people in one message!) I'm glad that Palace Walk is picking up for you. It is kind of strange to hear Dickens used in a negative way - it really should be a compliment!

Maysoon wrote: "I've enjoyed reading the different responses to Palace Walk. I read this many years ago and loved it. I found it completely engaging and was pulled right into the world of Cairo during this era (po..."

Hi Maysoon,

I just left a message for Lori telling her that I had in fact been pulled back into the world of Palace Walk. Once I got past the first part, and most of the kids got married and out from under the patriarchs thumb, and he started to talk about the politics and culture of the time, the pace has really picked up for me. At this point I'm glad that I didn't give up on it. And I love Dickens, so I take your friends "snooty" response about Mahfouz as a major compliment to him.

REMINDER -- the voting for this shelf ends on SATURDAY, so if you have a list and you haven't posted it, hop to! I'll close the voting thread on Saturday night and I'll be working on the shelf.

Don't worry, Maysoon, there will be more :)

Lolita is one of my favorite books, and it might help if you keep in mind you are SUPPOSED to find the narrator repulsive. What fascinates me is how he dodges this issue himself -- the excuses, the outright lies, the slanted perspective, and the charm he uses so that every so often I find myself starting to believe him, only to remember just what he really is.

I'm having a similar difficulty reading Pale Fire. The writing is luscious and the story interesting, but stepping into the head of a person who seems deeply insane is uncomfortable.

I've enjoyed reading the different responses to Palace Walk. I read this many years ago and loved it. I found it completely engaging and was pulled right into the world of Cairo during this era (post WW1 if I remember correctly). I excitedly mentioned it to my very well-read Arab boss and was treated to a rather snooty response about Mahfouz being nothing but the Dickens of the Middle East (I don't hear this much now but I recall quite a few critics viewing Dickens as overrated, a "mere" storyteller). Regarding the misogyny (or any other issue), it is interesting how you can be disturbed by encountering it in one book and not another. (For example, I've tried to read Lolita twice but haven't been able to finish it due to my revulsion towards the main character.) Anyway, I bought the second in the trilogy immediately but only read a few pages. I don't know why. Maybe it was because the first one was so wonderful and needing to remain intact in my mind!

On another note, I wish I hadn't missed out on all the other bookshelf voting - it must have been fun!

What?! What?!? :) The Berdoll book hardly counts - you'll be too busy rolling your eyes and counting cliches.

Just trying to do my little bit to keep even!

Ok ok ;) figures you'd know! Like my TBR lists aren't long enough! :D

If you decide you really want to dive into some of the classics of Japanese literature, I can recommend the following writers and works.

Mishima Yukio -

The Sailor Who Fell From Grace With The Sea
Forbidden Colors
The Sea of Fertility - A Quarter of Novels

Kawabata Yasunari

The Master of Go
Thousand Cranes

Tanizaki Junichiro

Almost anything, but espectially The Makioka Sisters

Gwenn Petersens book , The Moon in the Water, was a terrific introduction to the main themes in these 3 authors for me.

Also interesting are Kenzaburo Oe, Endo, and the novel Rashomon by Akutagawa.

I know I know, you didn't ask, but I these are authors that are so worth reading.

Bruce, nothing of great significance as yet, although I have more books to read. Mostly my entry has been through Manga (I am mostly confused) since my first touches were via anime. Banana Yoshimoto -- Japanese chick lit, as far as I can tell -- fascinates and confounds me. I have touched on some philosophy and history, mostly in anthologies and via documentaries. I've got some histories to read. More stuff has been the usual Western view of the Japanese. I'm such a dilettante, but it interests me none-the-less.

BunWat wrote: "Too many complicated thoughts in my head. Would have to write an enormous screed. I guess I'll just say that seeking to understand other cultures is something I enjoy. I like the way it challeng..."

Like you Bun, I traveled all over as a child. Long stints in West Africa and Mexico and Europe. And I love reading about other cultures and peoples. Not sure exactly why this particular case is so painful.

Sherri, what are you reading in Japanese literature if I may ask. Its always been one of my favorites.

I think I understand and agree with you, Bun. Lately, my 'other culture' reading has been Japanese, and I really wish I had a code book!

Too many complicated thoughts in my head. Would have to write an enormous screed. I guess I'll just say that seeking to understand other cultures is something I enjoy. I like the way it challenges me and stretches my imagination, the emotional complexity of trying to set aside my personal response and seek empathy and the intellectual challenge of figuring out how to fit the parts together into a working whole in my head.

I moved around a lot as a kid and I guess each new school, each new city or country became a challenge to my ability to "get it." Because every culture is its own complicated territory and people who grew up in the culture navigate it for the most part without thinking much about it. Its like the ultimate puzzle. So now I do it for fun sometimes - mostly through books.

Yes, but somehow its one thing to read about this kind of thing in a book, which allows you to at least try to distance yourself from it. Its another thing to read about it in the news. You wonder how the combination of incredible oil wealth with this kind of tribal, and to my mind, barbarous behaviour is going to play itself out in the 21st century. Its only been a couple of months since the leader of that country moved against the Wahabbi conservatives, now they seem to be moving to consolidate their power. On the other hand, we wouldn't know about this incident if it were not for Saudi newspeople who felt that it had to be publicized. There will be an interesting battle between the 21st century and fundamentalism coming in that part of the world, I predict.

I applaud your efforts, Bruce, on two fronts -- I admire those who bother to think about why they are reacting to a book as they do, and I find it interesting.

As for the subject at hand, to me it breaks down as part and parcel of tribal life, of "us against them" thinking, and to smaller issues of personal power. In the story you specify, you said the accuser was an ex-brother-in-law. It's possible he perceives injury to himself from his ex-wife and her family, and seeks any means to revenge himself by inflicting pain. He lives within a system that not only allows those uses of it, but enables and even encourages them.

That's my take, at least :)

I'm not sure its really a case of Beat Me, Beat Me. I think I have a sense of guilt about abandoning a book because I don't understand, relate to, accept the culture from which it grows. I saw reports today about a 75 year old grandmother being sentenced to 40 lashes because she was with two young men, one of whom was her nephew. The men had brought her bread because she was hungry. She had nursed the nephew when he was an infant, which should have established a "mother" relationship within Sharia law. But the court said she hadn't proved it. The complaint was brought by the nephews father! He is her ex brother in law, and he brought a complaint of corruption. Both men were also sentenced to lashings! For trying to feed a hungry woman. He sounds exactly like the father in this book. Very little apparently has changed in this part of the world. We need to find some common ground with conservative islam, or we are doomed to an ongoing Crusade/Jihad which could destroy us all/. But, I find it hard to understand this kind of belief structure.

Masochism, Bruce?

I've had that happen with books -- a book I'd otherwise drop has something that catches me and I read on, even if I'm arguing with the book in my head. I'm less forgiving as I get older, though, and I argue more. In my teens and twenties, I tended to accept whatever a writer said without question. Now I get prickly and demanding :)

BunWat wrote: "I have this notion about books, the less I identify with the subject and characters the better the writer has to be to pull me in. If I feel really comfortable with the characters or fascinated by..."

I think thats very true Bun. I find it almost impossible to identify with the characters, which makes the book difficult to read. But still I keep plowing along with, with the kind of fascination that a mouse displays staring at a snake. I think I will end up glad I read it for its insights into a completely different time, world, and culture, and equally glad the experience is over.

Why, oh why, did I pick up all 3 volumes though....

I have this notion about books, the less I identify with the subject and characters the better the writer has to be to pull me in. If I feel really comfortable with the characters or fascinated by what's happening I will tolerate more flaws in the technique.

That is so true for me.

I have this notion about books, the less I identify with the subject and characters the better the writer has to be to pull me in. If I feel really comfortable with the characters or fascinated by what's happening I will tolerate more flaws in the technique.

Lisa - I recommended it to a book club right after I read it, and everyone seemed to have the same reaction as you. So there you have it!

Which is what makes the world an interesting old place, people have different tastes. A book can be very well written and still just not appeal.

Bun, you are so right and that is fascinating, but I still wasn't able to enjoy this book. With other books, I've enjoyed them despite horrors worse than those in this book so it wasn't only the disturbing aspects that kept me from enjoying this and the interesting parts (such as you describe above) weren't enough to engage me. Bun and Lori, you're far from alone in finding enjoyment in this book; it was a favorite book/trilogy of the member who recommended it for our book group.

I enjoyed it because of how Bun describes it. Even the father is so much freer among his friends and in the cafes than he is at home. He is hateful with how he treats his wife. It was my first time reading a Middle Eastern book, and a Muslim one at that, and I found it fascinating. And even tho I have a feeling the author certainly doesn't uphold with the way life is conducted, he is careful not to make obvious judgment - it's almost reporting, and we are left to our own conclusions. At least, this is the way I remember it, it's been over a decade that I read it.

One of the things that fascinated me about Palace Walk is how the things that are denied or forbidden become so much more powerful and central to the characters than those which are admitted or accepted. The surface obedience and rectitude of the characters is wooden and lifeless while most of their real life and energy is in the things they hide and lie about, and in the sharing and keeping of secrets.

Bruce, My book club reads lots of non-western lit and most I've enjoyed much more than this. But I hope you'll also like it a bit more at the end.

Hmmmm. Thanks, Lisa. I made a commitment to read more non-western lit this year and so I'm going to stick it out to the end. I hope your right. I'm with you, though, its hard to find a character to really attach to in this one.

Bruce, Palace Walk got to me too. The only reason I finished it was that it was for my book club. I just hated the father and with perhaps the exception of the young son and maybe a couple of the sisters/neighbors had a hard time liking anyone. It drove me nuts more than other books with similar plots/themes/situations.

Edit: Just looked and to my surprise gave it 2, not 1, stars. In my review I said I started liking it more toward the end. Just fyi. Maybe there's hope. I didn't go on to read the other two in the trilogy though. There are just too many other books I've preferred to read.

The point is well taken, Bun. But for some reason this one just seems so egregious to me. I think its because literature is full of female characters who manage to express themselves despite the idiot men who surround/control them. The fact that all of these characters, male and female, are so subservient to the patriarch, even inside of their heads, just absolutely TERRIFIES me.

Well Bruce, I've also read Palace Walk, and honestly if I was going to stop reading every time I encountered depictions of patriarchy and male dominated societies my reading list would be very very short. Excluding most of history, large parts of the world, and a fair amount of modern western fiction too.

Lori wrote: "I read that years ago, and loved it for the portrayal of Egypt. I like when books take me inside a country foreign to my own experiences."

Lori - I am about half way through Palace Walk, and frankly am finding it to be hard going. I can read a couple of chapters at a time, and like you I love the portrayal of Egypt in the early part of the century and also the straightforward way that Mahfouz writes. But the portrayal of the father drives me up a wall! I just can't imagine living in a society that is so masculine dominated. Ok, ok, I recognize a certain amount of irony here, given our own short comings in this area, but we are talking a whole nother level here. At least in terms of my experience. Didn't it drive you crazy?? I literally find myself having to put the book down for a little while before I can immerse myself back into that world.

Also, did you get a chance to take a look at The Danish Poet yet?

I'm going to try; it looks great.

Yep! Especially from friends here whose taste I've come to trust very much. I'm in for May, and very much looking forward to it.

Kate -- I guess we've been guilted into it by enough people saying they loved it? A lot of mine are classics that I was never assigned in school that most people probably were, but Winter's Tale is just on the basis of word of mouth. I would expect the same for other people?

Make a thread in the Book Club folder when you get a chance.

I'm all for the Winter's Tale support group mentioned a few posts back.

Good luck! Yeah I think sometimes I psych myself out of liking things if I've heard too much about them. So maybe just telling myself its a beach read would undo that long enough for me to decide if I truly liked it or not.