The Lord of the Rings (The Lord of the Rings, #1-3) The Lord of the Rings discussion


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Sam

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message 1: by Rowan (new)

Rowan Throughout the trilogy, we journey with Sam and Frodo. Frodo seems to get all the credit but I think that Sam is the bigger hero. He keeps up Frodo's spirits, he fights his battles and is by his side for everything, he is brave and self-sacrificing. Without Sam the trilogy wouldn't have a ending. Sam literally carries Frodo on his back up mount doom. He makes Frodo push through everything. He protects him from Golem and all the other threats, but he is still called a sidekick. Frodo carries the ring but Sam, carries the quest. Does anyone feel the same way about Sam?


message 2: by Kat (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kat Yes absolutely as you say Frodo would not have completed his task without Sam and Sam I felt was put to the side in my mind frodo got all the credit really he is the hero of these books to me for always supporting Frodo and not getting corrupted/disheartened in the mean time. I always loved the fact that Sam never resented or even had a good reason for travelling with Frodo, he could have stayed in the Shire, But he stuck by Frodo through everything he's just that great!


message 3: by Kathy (new) - added it

Kathy I agree completely. Frodo is a reluctant hero at best. Sam is the motivating force behind him that keeps him moving toward the goal no matter what danger they run into.


Mitali I wouldn't say that either Sam or Frodo was the bigger hero. They both played equally important roles. If it wasn't for Sam, Frodo would never have reached Mount Doom. And if it wasn't for Frodo's compassion towards Gollum, the quest would have ended with Frodo putting on the ring, and Sauron killing both Frodo and Sam.

I think Sam gets the credit he deserves in the book - both Sam and Frodo are honoured equally in The Field of Cormallen, and Sam is never neglected in favour of Frodo in anything. Sam even gets to go West over the sea, just like Frodo, but after living a long and happy life in Middle-Earth.


ΣometimesIwonder I agree with Mitali. Sam did save Frodo many times and Frodo was the one who had to struggle with the Ring.


message 6: by Zoran (last edited Nov 03, 2012 10:34AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zoran Krušvar I think Sam was unjustly neglected just because he is gay.


Chris Zoran wrote: "I think Sam was ujustly neglected just because he is gay."

Where is your evidence for this, please?


message 8: by Nadia (new) - added it

Nadia Miranda Gay or not, the point is: Sam LOVES Frodo. This was the reason for him to be part of the Fellowship, and for him to save Frodo so many times, and later because he saw and understood the effects of the ring on his friend´s (or beloved´s) personality. And more importantly, Frodo is well aware that without Sam´s strenght, he woundn´t be able to complete the quest. Perhaps it is important for some people to put a lable on the fellings between the two friends, but for me it doesn´t matter, for it is LOVE, and it doesn´t need to be labeled, in my oppinion.


Zoran Krušvar Tirzah wrote: "Zoran wrote: "I think Sam was ujustly neglected just because he is gay."

I have the same question as Chris. If I recall, Tolkien never made reference of this in the books or the appendices."


That's how I see it. Tolkien has no say in it. If he wanted me to see it differently, he should have written Sam more hetero.


message 10: by Nancy (new)

Nancy Zoran wrote: "Tirzah wrote: "Zoran wrote: "I think Sam was ujustly neglected just because he is gay."

I have the same question as Chris. If I recall, Tolkien never made reference of this in the books or the app..."


What a ridiculous statement.


Zoran Krušvar Just to be clear, I don't mind Sam being gay. I think it's good to promote equal rights.


message 12: by Zoran (last edited Nov 03, 2012 02:50PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Zoran Krušvar There are no solid facts in interpretation of a novel.


Mitali Zoran wrote: "There are no solid facts in interpretation of a novel."

There's a difference between an interpretation and facts in a novel. The idea of Sam being gay is your interpretation, not a fact. You're acting as if it's a fact. That's like saying that Sam is really an elf, even though he's stated to be a hobbit, and then defending it by saying it's your interpretation.

There's nothing wrong in reading subtext in a novel. The idea that Sam and Frodo's relationship is more than platonic does have some basis in the book, given their loving attitude towards one another. But it's also clear that Tolkien never intended to depict either of them as actually gay, given that Sam marries a woman immediately on his return to the Shire, and Frodo can best be described as asexual.


Chris Zoran wrote: "I think Sam was ujustly neglected just because he is gay ... If he (Tolkien) wanted me to see it differently, he should have written Sam more hetero..."

I'm sure you can read into it what you like, but it sounds as if you are mistaking what would now be called a bromance for a gay relationship. As I've posted elsewhere in another thread, Tolkien would have envisioned Sam's relationship to Frodo more as a class thing, the sort of officer-batman companionship that he was familiar with from the Great War.


message 15: by Lora (new) - rated it 5 stars

Lora Good story telling is more important than 'equal rights'- and why does a loving relationship require a sexual undertone? Straight or gay, I mean.


Zoran Krušvar Mitali wrote: "Zoran wrote: "There are no solid facts in interpretation of a novel."

The idea of Sam being gay is your interpretation, not a fact. You're acting as if it's a fact. "


No I'm not. If I wanted to state that it is a fact, I wouldn't say "I think". I said that I think so, and that makes it my opinion.


Mitali Chris wrote: "As I've posted elsewhere in another thread, Tolkien would have envisioned Sam's relationship to Frodo more as a class thing, the sort of officer-batman companionship that he was familiar with from the Great War. "

That's an excellent comparison.


message 18: by D.S. (new) - rated it 5 stars

D.S. Taylor Rowan wrote: "Throughout the trilogy, we journey with Sam and Frodo. Frodo seems to get all the credit but I think that Sam is the bigger hero. He keeps up Frodo's spirits, he fights his battles and is by his ..."

on my first read through I agreed totally with this however having read it again I think you have to consider the internal struggle that frodo has. The ring is a massive burden, he is literally fighting the will of Sauron the whole time. Having said that though i still prefer Sam by a country mile


Preston Ray One of the themes in Tolkein is the idea that the "little guy" is what causes the change and the least are the greatest.

And on the "Sam is gay" idea. Never heard that one until the movie came out. Think it is mostly us projecting our belief system on a story that was first thought of over 70 years ago. Lot has changed over the years. I highly doubt that a devout Catholic like Tolkein writing in the World War 2 era would even seriously think about the idea of having a gay male hero. It is just too foreign to him.


message 20: by Chris (last edited Nov 08, 2012 04:55AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Chris PM wrote: "One of the themes in Tolkein is the idea that the "little guy" is what causes the change and the least are the greatest.

And on the "Sam is gay" idea. I highly doubt that a devout Catholic like Tolkein writing in the World War 2 era would even seriously think about the idea of having a gay male hero. It is just too foreign to him..."


I'm sure that somebody from a private school background and with Great War experience would be well aware of homosexuality, latent or otherwise: witness his contemporary Evelyn Waugh, author of Brideshead Revisited with its ambiguous relationship between the two male leads, and whose elder brother had a scandalous homosexual affair while at school.

But I also agree that as a devout Catholic Tolkien wouldn't have even countenanced a gay male hero in his fantasy, even though in the present day J K Rowling was content to publicly 'out' Dumbledore as gay in her fantasy.


Anthony Green Zoran wrote: "I think Sam was unjustly neglected just because he is gay."

There is a knucklehead in every discussion--a juvenile troll who says ridiculous things simply to get a rise out of people and feel important.

Ignore Zoran's vacuous, inane nonsense and maybe he/she/it will go away.


Zoran Krušvar Anthony wrote: "Ignore Zoran's vacuous, inane nonsense and maybe he/she/it will go away. "

I went away.
And now you made me turn back! Darn!


Sherri Moorer Absolutely. Sam was the unsung hero of the story. And he was humble - one more thing that made him shine!


Maeliosa There's no better bodyguard than your gardener.
Sam is not the only hero of the story though, nor is Frodo.
The story would be nothing without it's many characters. Elrond, Gandalf and especially Biblo - the story would be nothing without them. Even good old Merry and Pippin.

The fact that Tolkien had such a vast imagination he was able to create all of these wonderful people, the beautiful places and the cunning languages. That he created a completely different world in his head and shared it with us mortals is the best part of any of the books. Middle Earth was the gift Tolkien left behind, something for us to get lost in, to study and to love. So who cares who the real hero of the story is? We have the story, and we should be happy, very happy indeed.


Natalie Agree completely with the "Sam is a hero" sentiment. It took me about four re-reads to spot it though - Sam is just so beautifully humble about it all! He never asks for a word of praise, but shows courage, strength and loyalty go far beyons what anybody can reasonably expect.

As for the whole "Sam is gay" debate... I don't think he was written as such. The book was written 60 years ago, remember. While I'm sure Tolkien was aware of homosexuality, the LOTR books are completely devoid of sexuality of any kind. Sam loves Frodo, yes. But I think this is love of a friend and fellow struggler, not a "lover". You couldn't write it like that today - everybody would assume "Sam is gay" and that would be totally fine... but it's also a little sad that we seem to have lost the capacity to appreciate that love can exist between friends on a completely platonic level, but still be as powerful a bond at that between lovers of any gender.


message 26: by Lótë (Iris) (last edited Mar 19, 2013 12:57AM) (new)

Lótë (Iris) I think Sam was the true hero, yes.
He did everything for Frodo.
Of course, I love Frodo, but all he basically did was carry The Ring while Sam defended him and himself from all of the enemies around them.
I mean that with all do respect.
That's just my opinion though.


Hold_My_Heart Rowan wrote: "Throughout the trilogy, we journey with Sam and Frodo. Frodo seems to get all the credit but I think that Sam is the bigger hero. He keeps up Frodo's spirits, he fights his battles and is by his ..."

I agree with this. He didn't just show Frodo respect with his words he showed it to him with his actions too. Actions speak much louder than words, so this is why he should be recognized more.


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