The Lord of the Rings
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Faramir and Eowyn's Relationship, Gender Roles
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Although Tolkien's wife Edith is suggested as "inspiration for his fictional characters Lúthien Tinúviel and Arwen Evenstar", I wonder if the relationship between Eowyn and Faramir is an echo of Edith and Ronald's early romance. Edith and Ronald fell in love but were forbidden to associate with each other because of religion (Edith was Anglican, Ronald a Catholic). Not until he was 21 did Tolkien propose to Edith, so she broke off her engagement with another man to marry Ronald (after she converted to Catholicism).This may be an admittedly distant parallel to Eowyn's interest in Aragorn until she met Faramir and gave up her warring instincts to be a wife.
I read somewhere that Faramir is based on Tolkien himself i.e the war veteran that hates war. Eowyn could well be Tolkien's romance with his wife. In all honesty, though, women tend to come out badly in LOTR. IMO, they seem to be tacked on as a afterthought.
R.M.F wrote: "I read somewhere that Faramir is based on Tolkien himself i.e the war veteran that hates war. Eowyn could well be Tolkien's romance with his wife. In all honesty, though, women tend to come out b..."
Yeah, Tolkien said that if there was any character in LotR he resembled the most, it would be Faramir.
@ both RMF and Chris: I think that's actually very likely, about their romance reflecting his own life.
I do agree that it seemed Tolkein painted Eowyn as only being willing to settle down after she had her "15 minutes," but I think there are cultural implications here. Remember that this was written in the mid-20th century. It wasn't uncommon for women in that time to work during war times, then return to home and hearth once the war was over and men came home. Back then, women didn't have careers so the concept of Eowyn remaining a warrior probably would have turned off readers at the time the books were published. But at the same time, I believe she did love Faramir and wanted to marry him. Tolkein just knew how to articulate it from the male perspective better.
Sherri wrote: "I do agree that it seemed Tolkein painted Eowyn as only being willing to settle down after she had her "15 minutes," but I think there are cultural implications here. Remember that this was written..."I agree with your analysis of the contexts in which Tolkien wrote, Sherri. Without an historical perspective it can be too easy to criticise a work like LOTR for not being something it isn't, given the times in was written in.
For me I never thought Eowyn and Faramir made much sense. From her point of view, I always felt like she married him as a consolation prize, clearly she wasn't going to get Aragorn, so she'd settle for Faramir. But I am a little biased, I didn't like her character in any part of the book. Maybe it's because I didn't think there was a need for her character through the majority of the book. Sure at the end she was useful, but the thing that always stood out to me was how the witch-king couldn't be killed by a man. Well technically, he could have just as easily been killed by Merry (being a hobbit not a man) and they threw her character in at the end to just give Fatamir something to do while he was in the houses of healing and end his story line happy.But that's just me.
I've been thinking a lot about Eowyn lately (not so much her romance with Faramir, although the bits here about how their romance may have resembled Tolkien's romance with his wife are fascinating.) Eowyn seems to me a character who matures quite a bit over the course of the story--her attraction to Aragorn is little better than a schoolgirl crush. She had such a dark and blighted adolescence that it makes sense she would fall for the first honorable, mysterious stranger who shows up. However, she doesn't really know Aragorn, at least not enough to really be in love with him--she's in love with the idea of him, not the man himself. Then going to battle, witnessing her beloved uncle die so soon after he recovered from Wormtongue's poisonous influence, killing the witch-king, and becoming deathly ill as a result--these things deepen and mature her character. She becomes a woman by going to battle, which makes her an interesting character, especially given the time period the books were written. Even though it happened quickly, her and Faramir's romance seemed natural to me, one of those wartime loves that is an expression of hope in the face of the horrors of war.This is a complete aside to the discussion, but it's one of the reasons I've been thinking so much about Eowyn lately. I have a bit of ongoing debate with a friend who absolutely adores George R.R. Martin because he writes such "great" roles for women. In some ways, I agree with her. However, on reflection, I would far rather be a woman in Tolkien's universe than I would in Martin's. I would be more likely to survive the experience, for one thing.
Ooooh, Martin. That is a whole new sphere entirely. (I'm not saying that what you said was irrelevant and you shouldn't have written it, btw, just saying that there's a lot to discuss on Martin's themes as well.)I agree, I would very much prefer to be in Tolkien's world. I've only read the first Song of Ice and Fire book, and as far as I can see most of the women are...vulnerable? Can't find the right word.
Melissa wrote: "For me I never thought Eowyn and Faramir made much sense. From her point of view, I always felt like she married him as a consolation prize, clearly she wasn't going to get Aragorn, so she'd settle..."Really? That's interesting. I thought Eowyn was able to get over Aragorn. I think her love for Faramir is far more genuine than her "love" for Aragorn. She sees Aragorn as some kind of ideal, while Faramir is someone who's more understanding, someone she can connect with on a personal level.
And, this is entirely subjective, but personally, I don't think Eowyn is nearly shallow enough to just latch onto Faramir since she can't get the High King. She even kind of rejected him during the development of their relationship. Plus there's the part when Faramir tells Eowyn that he understands her feelings for Aragorn, and she admits that her love for Aragorn wasn't really love, just hero-worship.
Jocelyn wrote: "This is copy and paste from my old topic in The Return of the King, so if you'd already read that, then whatever.Moving on...
Okay, I know this romance between Eowyn and Faramir is an extremely ..."
To be honest, I think Tolkien may have seen an opportunity to conclude two plot threads by simply tying them together and doing the conventional Shakespearean comedy thing where everybody gets together and is happy in the end. Or Perhaps he felt that both these characters needed a resolution after all they had been through and decided that they'd find it in each other.
In the latter case, I think he may have thought it wasn't important to develop things much further than he did. Having them fall in love so promptly was kind of contrived, but since - as you pointed out - this is a minor plot point in the grand story, he didn't think it was necessary to flesh it out any more than he did. Plus, he may have just thought that since they were both used to being the underestimated ones of the litter, they suited each other.
Just me, and I could be wrong. But I can't imagine Tolkien intended much more at this point in the novel, when everything was being wrapped up and all the major plot threads were being tied off. Mainly, I think he was just looking to end their stories and decided on this way to do it.
Jocelyn wrote: "Ooooh, Martin. That is a whole new sphere entirely. (I'm not saying that what you said was irrelevant and you shouldn't have written it, btw, just saying that there's a lot to discuss on Martin's t..."There certainly is a lot to discuss with Martin -- however rightly or wrongly, ever since Time Magazine proclaimed Martin "the American Tolkien," the two names have been paired, especially I think for folks who maybe haven't read a lot of fantasy, like the friend I mentioned in my previous comment. Really, to me, Martin's and Tolkien's works have very little in common. Martin's first three books entertained me a great deal, but that's about it. Whereas, when it comes to the Lord of the Rings, I'm in love with Middle Earth and its denizens -- in some ways, it's more of a real place to me than many actual, less enchanting places (like my windowless office at work. :)
But back to Faramir and Eowyn -- when I think about people falling in love, it often seems to me that it's a matter of where two souls are on their life path and when and where their two paths meet. Sometimes it's a crossroads and they go on their separate ways, and sometimes it's a merging that continues forever. Faramir and Eowyn are in similar places in life when they meet: both grievously injured in heart and body, both have just lost their fathers (in Eowyn's case, her adoptive father), both have been fighting in the same war, and both have been questioning the rules of their cultures. It's no wonder to me they feel an instant spark of recognition that leads to attraction and so on and so forth.
Since Martin's been mentioned - good call by the way! - I wonder what people here think about the character of Cersei. As you may or may not be aware, the issue of whether or not she's unfairly portrayed has come up a lot in other forums. Any thoughts on that, even if it's off topic?
Karen wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Ooooh, Martin. That is a whole new sphere entirely. (I'm not saying that what you said was irrelevant and you shouldn't have written it, btw, just saying that there's a lot to discu..."I agree that Martin and Tolkien have very little in common. I think the major difference is the way their themes are interwoven into their stories. LotR is built on moral grounds, and ASoIaF is built on immoral grounds.
Definitely! Faramir and Eowyn have a lot in common. Besides what you listed, the way they feel in the world are pretty similar too--both feel rejected or overshadowed. Faramir was overshadowed by Boromir, and after Boromir died Denethor kept throwing bitch fits about it. For Eowyn it was because of her gender.
I'd like to weigh in here if i may.It's been a while since I've read LOTR ROTK but I never got the impression that Eowyn paired off with Faramir out of pity or due to his position. I think that by that point, both of them were lonely and both of them were sort of set adrift in life, he having lost his father and brother and the whole debacle of those relationships and she having lost her uncle and having been spurned by Aragorn. That said, I don't think that wanting to get together with Faramir because of his position is such an awful or shallow thing in light of the world they live in.
We see evidences of that type of pairing in our own histories...marriages to unite empires and create peace. It is as valid a reason as any in my opinion. And it does not necessarily mean that there is no love between the parties. In fact these marriages may be better because there is so much more at stake than individualistic notions of love and desire.
As for Eowyn settling down in marriage with a family, I don't think that it's necessarily out of character either. Most women, I'd wager, regardless of their position, strength, influence or badassedness want a partner and children. This isn't so much a social construct as it is a natural inherent drive. With that, I think that what Tolkien did with her was actually quite honest and even unusual.
I think with a character as layered and strong as Eowyn (who I love!) it is only natural to write her as having continued this divergent life course. But, that isn't necessarily realistic. Lets look at the reasons she wanted to fight and wanted to be on the front line. She wanted her part in the most important challenge her people were facing. And by the end, that threat was gone. And quite frankly she is a changed person and not for the worst. Awesome as she was, she was a bit high strung (if memory serves) and so many things happened to temper her. She lost her uncle who she loved dearly. She saw so much death and destruction. The land was altered. While hope had been restored with the defeat of the Lord, innocence was a distant memory. During her convalescence she had the opportunity to reflect and I think was actually wooed by Faramir who to my memory was very different from her. More introverted, more deeply thinking. More patient.
I actually think it is a brave move to send her in that direction. To me it shows that she had some great character growth, but definitely not any less badass than before.
Imagine the kinds of children she would raise? Imagine the kinds of daughters she will raise, and their capabilities.
I don't think that this was a move made lightly by Tolkien, that he was merely tying up loose ends. With a work of this magnitude I can't believe that he did not give this turn of events deep thought.
Khaalidah wrote: "I'd like to weigh in here if i may.It's been a while since I've read LOTR ROTK but I never got the impression that Eowyn paired off with Faramir out of pity or due to his position. I think that b..."
Well said! Even if I disagree with some of it, or disagreed before and am now convinced, that's a great analysis.
Yes, I agree--Tolkien never just does things the lazy way. I mean, he spent over thirty years inventing his languages, and went back into his work to make sure the passage of time matched with the lunar phases. A guy who does that simply does NOT take things lightly.
Jocelyn wrote: "Really? That's interesting. I thought Eowyn was able to get over Aragorn. I think her love for Faramir is far more genuine than her "love" for Aragorn. She sees Aragorn as some kind of ideal, while Faramir is someone who's more understandin..."To be fair, my view is based on a lot of things that aren't entirely on the books themselves and I tend to get a little biased that way. When I was 14/15 the FOTR movie came out and I thought it was AMAZING! so I read the books and a friend and I started writing fan fiction that more or less followed the plot of the books from beginning to end. Long story short, we weren't super fans of Eowyn and made her character more of a bitch than was probably necessary, so that's how I tend to always think of her. Is it fair to her or the story, probably not, but it's how I still think of her.
I think both Eowyn and Faramir did what they had to, but neither of them was a fighter by nature. Boromir was the warrior of the family, while Faramir prefers his books. He is good at fighting and leading, it just isn't what he wants to do with his life. Eowyn is good at fighting and when the time comes she, too, does what she feels she has to, but what she says at the end is that she'd rather be a healer. As so many have commented on this list, the two of them have a lot in common. It may be worth looking at the scene where Aragorn has come to her hospital room and points out to her brother that there were very good reasons for what she did; he admires her courage and strength, but he's been spoken for, for a very long time - and he absolutely sees what she had was a crush, a form of hero worship.Actually, I believe there was an early draft where Eowyn dies and Aragorn, in grief, never marries. I'm glad Tolkien rewrote this. It wouldn't have worked.
Personally, I think Eowyn and Faramir are the two most attractive characters in the book.
Khaalidah wrote: "I'd like to weigh in here if i may.It's been a while since I've read LOTR ROTK but I never got the impression that Eowyn paired off with Faramir out of pity or due to his position. I think that b..."
Great comment!
Matthew wrote: "Since Martin's been mentioned - good call by the way! - I wonder what people here think about the character of Cersei. As you may or may not be aware, the issue of whether or not she's unfairly por..."Interesting question, probably worthy of starting another discussion -- actually there are a few discussions about this very issue on the Amazon forums related to Song of Ice and Fire, maybe some on here I'm not aware of. I've only read the first three books in the series (over a decade ago now), and from what I remember, I don't think Cersei's character was unfairly portrayed in those books.
*VAGUE SPOILER* However, I've seen some reviews and comments from folks who have read books 4 & 5 about how she is punished for her transgressions, and the punishment sounds misogynistic and not very historically accurate to boot, to the point where I'm really not interested in reading about it. Of course, Martin's books are fantasy, but one of his selling points has always been that he's writing a fantasy version of the War of the Roses, so I'd expect more attention to historical accuracy from him than from the average fantasy writer. Please keep in mind though, that I haven't actually read books 4 & 5 and am not sure if I will at this point, so my comments are hearsay *END SPOILER*
In the interests of not derailing this discussion any further, I will not comment any more about Martin here. If you're interested, Matthew, I could send you a link to a review written by someone who has read Book 5 and comments extensively about the issue of Cersei's portrayal in that book (and Dany's too). Just PM me if you would like a link to the review.
As for Eowyn and Faramir, I have nothing more to add except that their romance is my favorite in the Lord of the Rings, probably because Eowyn and Faramir are both such well-developed characters before they ever meet. In the books (excepting the Appendices) we really don't learn much about Arwen, and although the romance between her and Aragorn is poignant (especially the connection to Luthien and Beren's story), it never holds the stage long enough (except in the Appendices, if you're a nerd like me and read that far) to really capture my interest in the same way Eowyn and Faramir's does.
Karen wrote: "As for Eowyn and Faramir, I have nothing more to add except that their romance is my favorite in the Lord of the Rings, probably because Eowyn and Faramir are both such well-developed characters before they ever meet. In the books (excepting the Appendices) we really don't learn much about Arwen, and although the romance between her and Aragorn is poignant (especially the connection to Luthien and Beren's story), it never holds the stage long enough (except in the Appendices, if you're a nerd like me and read that far) to really capture my interest in the same way Eowyn and Faramir's does."Yes, I loved their romance as well! Arwen was a tad too two-dimensional for me to appreciate, Tolkien only spends about two pages developing her, excluding the appendices.
I have to say that even in the appendices, Arwen's character didn't do much for me. It was the typical fall in love at first sight, star crossed lovers, blah blah blah.
Tolkien deals in myth, and types and patterns. There is a sense that the "High" people - the elves and High Men - being representatives of the old, heroic society, have grand destinies and tragic ends, whilst the "Common" people - the Common Men and Hobbits - have no controlling destinies; they rise to the heroic when the occasion demands it but are then able to settle down to normal lives.Frodo completes the Ring quest, but can never find peace in Middle Earth again. Aragorn is reinstated in his rightful place as King, but his love for Arwen ends in her long widdowhood.
In contrast, Sam gets to marry his Rosie, and Faramir & Eowyn find each other. They don't get the glory - they get the "happy ever after".
We need to remember that Tolkien had been through the horrors of war. To those who have endured and suffered, a peaceful, quiet life is not a restriction, but a blessing.
Don't think of Eowyn as being deprived of further adventure but being rewarded with a quiet life.
True heroes don't want adventure! They take on the tasks when needed - but domesticity is what they long for.
I don't think Eowyn is being restricted "because she is a woman". She - like Faramir - is being rewarded for her heroism. And rewarded by finding a man with a heroic nature equal to hers, not destiny-driven, but capable of simple, human happiness. He is the real man, where Arsgorn was the dream.
Well said, Alexandra! A good thought on this. The characters find the type of life that suits them and I have no doubt Tolkien would have thought anyone crazy for wanting glory when they could have peace!
Karen wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Since Martin's been mentioned - good call by the way! - I wonder what people here think about the character of Cersei. As you may or may not be aware, the issue of whether or not sh..."That would be cool. And without giving anything away, and having read book four and halfway through five (which she does appear in so I'm all caught up), I can't say that her punishment is unfair at all. It was a total case of chickens coming home to roost and the punishment being precisely what she tried to doll on someone else. I shall say no more since you sound like you might want to read it;)
Jocelyn wrote: "Karen wrote: "As for Eowyn and Faramir, I have nothing more to add except that their romance is my favorite in the Lord of the Rings, probably because Eowyn and Faramir are both such well-developed..."Yeah, we really don't learn a lot about Arwen in the books--she certainly doesn't come to life on the page the same way Eowyn does, probably because poor Arwen gets so few pages! I really liked (for the most part) how Peter Jackson developed Arwen's character in the movies and showed her and Aragorn's romance and Elrond's sadness over her choice--the scene with her in the widow's veil at Aragorn's tomb makes me cry. It would be terrible to be an immortal creature in love with a mortal one.
I really like what Alexandra said about the peaceful life being Eowyn and Faramir's reward for enduring so much pain. In our adrenaline-charged entertainment, I think sometimes it's easy to discount the peaceful and quiet times, especially it seems in fantasy. I belong to a book club whose members wouldn't dream of criticizing a so-called literary work for having a slow pace; however, they don't hesitate to condemn a fantasy story for not having enough "action". This makes me sad sometimes. The parts of LOTR that I love and re-read are not the battle scenes, but the feasts, the songs, the forests, the characters having a quiet moment to talk to each other. Certainly the battle and action scenes are needed; they punctuate the story arc and help move things along. However, they're not my favorite parts.
"...(Eowyn) only married the dude to latch onto him just so she could get out of her depression, or only married him because of his position as Steward of Gondor. "I would not say that those motives are congruent with Tolkien's description of Eowyn's falling in love with Faramir and can be disarded pretty easily as speculating on what is not there in the text. Eowyn's "escape" phase was with Aragorn and even then I would not say her motives are as easily articulated as that. The Faramir phase is meant to show that she (actually both of them) has recovered hope. Really, that is the theme of the whole book. Some people never give up (Sam), some never have any (Frodo), some people give up and perish (Denethor), some give up and are redeemed (Eowyn).
Karen wrote: "Jocelyn wrote: "Karen wrote: "As for Eowyn and Faramir, I have nothing more to add except that their romance is my favorite in the Lord of the Rings, probably because Eowyn and Faramir are both suc..."Yes, I do agree that their relationship is something of a reward for their courage.
Actually, as a matter of fact, that chapter when their relationship develops is one of my favorite parts, and the part that I like rereading over and over and over. I never get tired of it.
I have to say that I don't like the way Tolkien writes his battle scenes--they don't read like over the top exciting action, they read a bit more like something going in slow motion.
Brent wrote: ""...(Eowyn) only married the dude to latch onto him just so she could get out of her depression, or only married him because of his position as Steward of Gondor. "I would not say that those moti..."
Good point.
I'd just like to say, though, that the part you quoted was something I'd distinguished as hearing other people saying, not me. :)
To be honest, I think the scholarly types of those days basically did consider women a secondary consideration to their intellectual pursuits. I often think that all these men woke up married one day without ever being quite sure how it happened. Regardless of why Tolkien paired them up, I always thought Eowyn and Faramir made the whole trilogy worth reading, and I'm glad he did it. It may have come off a little after-thoughty, but his is not the only classic where I have encountered that sort of relationship. Around the World in 80 days and The Sea Wolf are two that come to mind.
But getting back to the point.
I don't think authors in Tolkien's day really considered "staying home and raising babies" an inferior thing to do. It's only the warped views of today's society that suggest that a woman is somehow less if she doesn't go and kill a witch-king every day. To my mind, the best thing a strong woman can do is to pass that strength on to others, so that when the men come back from fighting, there is someone there to boost them, lift them up and make them realise that yes, actually, there is something worth fighting for.
I honestly don't think for a moment that Tolkien meant anything but good for her (and for Faramir) when he chose to marry her to a good, honest, brave and peace-loving man.
Well said. To add to that....while LotR is quite dark, Faramir and Eowyn's relationship was also able to successfully break up the tension and remind the reader that while in life things have consequences, they can have good consequences as well.I liked how Eowyn provided a balance, too. Perhaps Tolkien made her do BOTH things--be a super badass, as well as being a wife--to show that those should be held in equal regard.
You're not wrong. It's so easy to go the other way and say that a woman that DOESN'T get married and have babies is somehow a failure.So many boxes to be squished into, so little time...
And yes, definitely on the light/dark.
Too, I always felt Aragorn and Arwen was a bit forced. Almost like either of them would have been happy to change their minds and not get married after all, but they'd been making such a big fuss about it so long they almost felt obliged.
I wouldn't want to be Arwen. Two thousand-odd years old and still having to do what her father says! And then, when she finally does get her beloved Aragorn, he is gone in a mere 100 years and she has turned down her chance to go over the sea - and had a fight with her Dad about it all. Eowyn definitely gets the best of it.
Paula wrote: "To be honest, I think the scholarly types of those days basically did consider women a secondary consideration to their intellectual pursuits. I often think that all these men woke up married one ..."I read in What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew: From Fox Hunting to Whist--the Facts of Daily Life in 19th-Century England that one in two hundred women died in childbirth in 19th-century Britian. Probably better odds of survival than being on the front line of a battle, but still really risky. And always painful, even if you did survive the experience. Certainly there are no childbirth scenes in Tolkien, nor should there be -- LOTR isn't really about that. However, becoming a mother demands a lot of courage, just as much courage as marching into battle.
Sorry, came back to edit--I wanted to add that I quoted Paula's comment because I agree with what she wrote. Also, wanted to add my 2 cents about the courage required in many arenas of life, not just battle.
Alexandra wrote: "Frodo completes the Ring quest, but can never find peace in Middle Earth again. Aragorn is reinstated in his rightful place as King, but his love for Arwen ends in her long widdowhood.In contrast, Sam gets to marry his Rosie, and Faramir & Eowyn find each other. They don't get the glory - they get the "happy ever after".
We need to remember that Tolkien had been through the horrors of war. To those who have endured and suffered, a peaceful, quiet life is not a restriction, but a blessing.
Don't think of Eowyn as being deprived of further adventure but being rewarded with a quiet life."
Very well said!
To elaborate on your theme: People tend not to realize that, unlike the huge fantasy genre that it inspired, LotR is not a story about defeating evil or even winning at all – it’s a story about a fading world that is trying to keep the darkness at bay just a little while longer. Yes, Sauron is defeated, and the war is ended. But, as the ‘Scouring of the Shire’ chapter shows, one big win does not mean that evil is rooted out forever. It still lives on, in many small ways, and it’s the responsibility of all those who wish to lead a good life to root out the evil in their homes to the best of their abilities. And the backstory of The Silmarillion shows that such wars and wins have come and gone many times in the history of Middle-Earth. Nothing is permanent, least of all the glory of winning a war. The only thing that endures are the little joys of life, such as the time spent with loved ones.
It’s also interesting to note that the main characters who get the happiest and most ‘domestic’ of endings are the three characters who went to war for the sake of loved ones: Sam for Frodo, Faramir for his father, and Eowyn for her uncle. Each of them loses that loved one, in one way or the other. For them to find love again (a different kind of love, of course), and a happy and peaceful life is the best ending they could have gotten.
Mitali wrote: "It’s also interesting to note that the main characters who get the happiest and most ‘domestic’ of endings are the three characters who went to war for the sake of loved ones: Sam for Frodo, Faramir for his father, and Eowyn for her uncle. Each of them loses that loved one, in one way or the other. For them to find love again (a different kind of love, of course), and a happy and peaceful life is the best ending they could have gotten."Compensation for suffering and rewards for being selfless, perhaps? I do agree, though--I always got the feeling Tolkien did those things because he felt this characters deserved it.
Alexandra wrote: "Tolkien deals in myth, and types and patterns. There is a sense that the "High" people - the elves and High Men - being representatives of the old, heroic society, have grand destinies and tragic e..."Beautifully put!
I think Faramir and Eowyn had a realistic, practical relationship that wasn't over the top passionate. They still loved each other, but it wasn't a love to inspire generations or something. It's actually refreshingly simple and realistic. Almost all stories have love stories where the people fall more in love than everyone else in the world even if it's like a highschool relationship.
Wow, so many interesting ideas on this thread. I love Eowyn and Faramir, and feel that their love is real and really sweet. However, I always felt that it was kind of lame that Eowyn got stuck into the role of wife at the end. But reading some of the posts on this thread has changed my mind. And I agree that the peaceful moments are really the most touching.
Khaalidah wrote: "I'd like to weigh in here if i may.It's been a while since I've read LOTR ROTK but I never got the impression that Eowyn paired off with Faramir out of pity or due to his position. I think that b..."
Wow, well said!
Great thread, some great thoughts out there! Its been long time since I read the books as well. But I remember being so happy that Eowyn and Faramir found each other. Both had been so damaged and found healing together. I wanted more of their story. I felt that Aragorn had lost something when he turned her away.
In my opinion, Eowyn got the better end result with Faramir. I fell in love with him in the book --his noble character & gentle side -- and though I loved the movies I feel Faramir's character was shortchanged.Her desire to be a warrior served her long enough to do something of great sigificance: she protected her uncle & killed a source of great evil. I love that!! I agree with someone's earlier statement here that she greatly matured through her experiences.
I think you are missing the point here. Eowyn didn't start out cool, killing the witch king, and end up bound by gender roles by being a mom.
I mean, killing is only cool if it has a point.
The point to the war in LOTR, was not to deal out death for fun (at least, how the narrator sees it) but to kill to defend LIFE. The evil forces were killing LIFE (insert civilians, children, etc here). Eowyn killed the killer. And then at the end, she goes on to spread LIFE in a another way--by creating something worth defending (eg. THE FUTURE=Children)
As for Faramir, same story. He's a warrior because he has to be, to defend what he loves. At the end, he's going to go and make a garden (life) and have kids (Life) to actually get to enjoy what they were all dying for in the first place.
To quote the movie "There's good in this world, and its worth fighting for"
well, after fighting for the good. Its nice to enjoy it.
This has nothing to do with old fashioned gender roles. It has to do with reality.
There is a place for killing, but when all is said and done would you rather spend your whole life cutting goblin throats or teaching a kid how to read, how to enjoy that hard-fought peace, how to live?
And about Eowyn liking Faramir and vice versa,did anyone else realize in the book how much Eowyn and Boromir are similar?
-their intense sense of honor (Boromir has it a lot more in the book)
-their intense snese of honor/pride (thus Wormtongue's words about her people really hurt Eowyn, likewise Boromir will go through hell to hold up his people's honor/reputation)
-They are both really brave (Eowyn, duh. Boromir, you really see it in the book. He'll stand alone over the hobbits and defend them alone until he's got 30 arrows in him. Kinda like Eowyn defending Theoden from the Witch King's beast)
etc etc
So, my theory.
People fall in love with people that understand them.
Faramir understood Boromir-types, he understood Eowyn.
Eowyn recognized that Faramir understood her. And she liked that. (Believe me, mystique and all are nice for dating, but when you opt to spend 50+ yrs with someone, you want someone who understands you)
Moving on...
Okay, I know this romance between Eowyn and Faramir is an extremely minor plot point, but I'd like to discuss it anyway. It's one of the few times in the Lord of the Rings when Tolkien decides to add some romance, and I found a few things in it that I'd like to question after I make this point.
So, I've been looking around the Internet lately (not just Goodreads, the Internet in general) and there seem to be quite a few people who question whether Eowyn really loves Faramir, or only married the dude to latch onto him just so she could get out of her depression, or only married him because of his position as Steward of Gondor. I didn't think Eowyn was shallow in any way (she fucking dressed up as a guy and killed the Witch-king to save her father from being torn apart, also sympathizing with Merry), or at least shallow enough to do that. However, the book isn't terribly clear on Eowyn's reasons for falling in love with Faramir, it emphasizes Faramir's love for her much more. It's possible that she found comfort in him and related to him more, but the book, again, isn't terribly clear. What do you guys think?
Ever since I've read the Lord of the Rings, I'd always been fascinated with Eowyn. She is by far one of the most complex and deep characters in this entire novel. I also found that her role in the story to be interesting; I mean, I love it that Tolkien included a warrior woman, I'm always a sucker for badass ladies. But in the end, she married Faramir and settled down to be a mother. What, exactly, was Tolkien trying to do here? What do you think was his purpose for doing this? He puts neither of Eowyn's actions into either a positive or negative light. What do you think was the purpose behind Tolkien making a warrior lady to contradict traditional gender roles, but in the end settling down as a wife?