I never saw the television version of the book. I was in the Middle East in the 70's and Far East, Latin America and Africa in the 80's.

I want to say it was Harding that insisted on the covers for everything. I am probably wrong. The holder-over from that era is dust ruffles for beds.

I think I was in high school at the time, so it must have been the late 70's/early 80's.

I remember Olivia Cole being one of the housekeepers.
and Celeste Holmes as Mrs Harding confronting her husband about his mistress.

I also remember the staff dealing with a full house during the Roosevelt years-Harry Hopkins, Sara Roosevelt (the president's mother) Crown Princess Martha, Eleanor's friends, the Roosevelt grandchildren and Winston Churchill all crashing at the White House at the same time.

Did they make a miniseries out of that in the late 70s/early 80s? I have a vague memory of watching something that might be that.

That sounds more correct, Manuel. I thought it had to do with the 'help' having to use the back stairs. I remember enjoying the book, and most surprised that they "just HAD to make dust covers for the drapes where they touched the floor."

Actually I think it might have been
Backstairs at the White House.

No, Susanna; it was someone more current than that. From Taft to Eisenhower sounds right. I read it a long time ago. "Upstairs at the White House" may have been the title of the book; it sounds right.

It told of the 'help' blending into the walls as the first family or visitors passed them.

What's the use of reading all those books when I finally have time to contemplate on them, I can't remember them? <sigh>

Upstairs at the White House

The TV mini series covered every administration
from Taft to Eisenhower
1909-1961


All from the perspective of black White House servants.

Was it Mary Todd Lincoln, Will, do you think?

I'd read that also, Jim. It's often said that the English outside England are/were more English than the English. I suppose that is what was occuring, then. My experiences confirm that saying.

My memory is gone, but there was a book years ago, written by a servant in the White House, a black lady and her daughter as I remember it. She told of making covers for the bottoms of curtains and chair legs for the First Lady. I wish I could remember which one; I think it was (removed as my doubt built after posting), but I'm probably wrong. the title of the book was something about the back staircase.

Manuel wants to keep talking about horses. LOL

I think Jim is right.
The Brits in the 19th century were not as uptight as their American counterparts.

Oscar Wild once said that almost anything was forgiven, as long as you didnt frighten the horses on the street.

I wouldn't mind getting rid of the horses, but that would mean getting rid of the wife. ;-)

Back on topic:

I read that American high society was more 'Victorian' than English society. That it was a myth that English Victorians put skirts on furniture legs, but that some Wanna-be's in American society did. It was supposed to be a lot of rumor & yellow journalism.

I found how to have quiet, convenience, plant and harvest my veggies and fruits, and cut my annual mileage from 30000 mi/yr to 3000. I gave up owning horses; cut my time requirements in half but it's the part of my convient life I miss most.

Not owning horses or playing golf created more time than I know what to do with it all. I paint and sculpt more now. I write books. I still miss having horses, though.

I have a small farm now. Big enough for a few horses, a small woods, a couple of ponds & barns. Plenty to take care of after work & on the weekends, but the big difference is that it is a "Gentleman's Farm". A bad year hurts, but it isn't devastating. I don't go hungry. While we're tied down somewhat by the animals, there aren't that many that anyone can't take care of them for a few days.

My son lives in the city & loves it. He was surprised, but likes the convenience. I've tried it, but I really like being out in the country. I like the quiet.

I was country when country wan't cool. Now, I'm a city feller and like it. I admit, I liked it when the power went off and we moved in front of the fireplace and played games by lamplight...for a few days; not forever.

Next week I'll be feeding my neighbor's chickens while they're on vacation. That'll be the closest to country I've been in over twenty years. I think I'll get a big straw hat; maybe chew on a wheat stem.

Yep, many of our friends are academics, and "back to the country"ness can sometimes come with that. Not, however, with my father - like you, he grew up on a farm. He likes the city.

I'm with your grandfather, Will. The farm I grew up on had over 1/4 mile of electric line running through the woods that was just ours. In the 70's, the woods was overgrown around it & we used to lose electric on a regular basis for long periods. Didn't have the money for a generator, so we did without often enough that we had an outhouse. We heated with wood mostly, too. Cutting & splitting 6 cords of wood every year was a lot of work.

We never bought meat & rarely vegetables or fruit at the store. We raised all our own. We could have bought more, but money was tight & my parents were on a 'live natural' kick. "White sugar, white death" was one of my mother's favorite warnings to me. (I still have no idea what it means!)

We'd take steers & sometimes pigs or sheep to get butchered, but lambs, chickens/fowl, deer & such we'd butcher ourselves. Chickens, guineas & such were often killed & plucked after dinner the night before we ate them since it was easier to get them when they came into the coop at night. Again, a lot of work & not exactly pre-bedtime fun.

Of course, we had milk straight from the cow or goat, which was excellent, unless the goat got into wild onions. That was terrible. But when we had cow milk, we had fresh, homemade butter, whip cream, yogurt & cottage cheese. Still, I'd rather buy it from the store. If there's anything worse than sitting up in the middle of the night with an animal in labor in a cold barn, then it's having to strip down to help her out & still get up or stay up the next day to do all the other work. Animals don't take vacations. They still need to be fed, mucked & all no matter how tired or cold you are. I left the farm as soon as I graduated & joined the Army.

I think the worst things about the old days was lack of antibiotics or decent doctors & dentists. How many women died of 'child birth fever' &/or urinary tract infections? Anyone could easily die from a cut. Yuck. No thanks.

Chariots of the Gods--that's it, Marion; Thanks. I remember, now. It was water cooler fodder for a while. I knew it had something to do with alien space ships described as chariots. I still sort of buy into the theory that humankind may have begun with alien visitors. I don't waste a lot of time trying to prove it or investigate it; just kind of accept it as a possibilty.

Yeah, Gene Barry was suave, to a ten year old kid. I enjoyed watching it, recently, more as comedy. Bat Masterson lived into the 1920's. Dime novels were actually a nickle before they became so popular. Easterners loved them. They depicted the "Wild West" as romantic and exciting (shoot outs and death, mostly). It inspired many to travel westward. I suppose it was an exciting time; railroads were stretching across untamed lands; red men in loin cloths on painted ponies terrifying the women folk; canyons a mile deep and mountains miles high to be discovered, conquered, and romanticized; Colt .45's and repeater Winchesters to settle scores. Ah, those were the days.

My grandfather said that anyone who longed for the good old days had forgotten outhouses, carrying water and chopping wood.

Heck, I saw a program featuring Daniken heavily on the History Channel. This week or last!

Back in the 1970's there was a series of books by a man named Von Daniken called "Chariots of the Gods." His theory was based on UFO's, namely that the earth had been visited by "aliens" who arrived on UFO's & did all kinds of cool things like parting the Red sea so the Hebrews could escape from Egypt, laying out a series of lines in the Peruvian desert that, when view from the air looked like a site for spacecraft landing, &, in their spare time, built the pyramids (in Egypt, Mexico & other places) built Stonehenge, & any other architectural structure that would have been "impossable" to build without modern equipment.
Von Daniken had his 15 minutes of fame, there were TV specials about his theories & he was interviewed a lot, but then real scientists began to examine his theories a little more carefully & when they pointed out flaws in his "proofs", the public, fickle as always, cast him aside. (Sometimes, in the very early morning hours, a channel like A & E will run some of his shows & then the announcer will laugh at them.)

Gene Barry, played him, didn't he? I thought he was so cool when I was little. My favorite was Richard Boone, Paladin, in "Have Gun, Will Travel", though. Chuck Conners as "The Rifleman" was cool, but he didn't beat people up enough.

I've read & heard various people say most of the 'Wild West' in film & literature was based primarily on the decade from 1880 - 90 when there was a big rage for dime novels. I've never really looked into it, but thought the period was longer, going into the early 1900's. Anyone know?

Knit one, pearl two, over pi, divided by the equalateral....

I still have my slide rule and my grandfather's. We call them 'slip sticks'.

Back to myths...I watched an old Bat Masterson show on TV, yesterday, with Gene Barry. Bat Masterson -- talk about myths! He was a sports writer, newspaper publisher, buffalo hunter, marshall and gambler, but not a gunslinger. He only used a cane when he was recovering from a pelvic wound. He was actually famous for the famous gunlingers he had known.

That's a kind of math I have trouble with. I always get distracted & lose count. Not that I'm much good at knitting or have done it for a long time. I did knit the boys scarves when they were little. Must be 20 years ago now. Any time I tried to get more complicated than a rectangle, the results were disasterous.

Teaching knitting would be good for practical uses for math. Lot of math in knitting.

Susanna wrote: "Jim - I've never used a slide rule, but I have actually seen one in use. That may qualify me for antique status these days!

I never took math higher than geometry/algebra, so I think that calcula..."

Since I just turned 50, I'm going to have to take exception to your use of 'antique status'. How terribly rude!  

;-) Just kidding. I want a recount, because I don't think I'm old & 50 just sounds old. Of course, so did 30 or even 10 at one time, many ages ago...

None of my other kids got into the higher maths & I don't think it means anything about intelligence. My oldest & I both got through a year or so of calculus, but it's of absolutely no practical use to me, so I promptly forgot all mine. Plane geometery, logic & simple algebra are useful in my daily life, so those I still retain.

I think it's a myth that you have to be smart to deal with math. Like anything else, if there is an interest or need, it's a lot easier. Most folks just don't see the practical use for it, which is a failing of our educational system.

A friend home schooled their kid & he needed a 'technology' credit, so I taught him some woodworking. He didn't really know fractions or realize how easy they could make carpentry. I explained how easy it made reading & using a tape measure & showed him some practical examples. The kid picked it up in no time.

We used some easy geometry (bisecting a line, equal diagnols & such) a few times too. Again, he picked it up in no time & commented that he didn't know math could be useful or so practical. He taught some of it months later to his dad when they were putting up a shed.

Another time, I was helping a neighbor, a handyman/carpenter, put up a shed roof against a barn. He needed help cutting & setting the rafters, which were big, long & very heavy. His plan was to hold them in place, make marks, take them down cut & repeat until they fit. Each rafter has 4 cuts & I hate working harder than I have to. I showed him how to take 2 measurements & use a framing square - which is a simple marvel of construction geometery. We only had to pick up the bloody things once to nail them in.

He was amazed & proudly told me a few years later how he was still able to do it & had expanded on what I'd shown him naturally. I don't think he made it past 8th grade. While nice, rocks tended to outshine the guy. Proof enough to me that it doesn't take a lot of smarts nor a particularly good teacher.

Jim - I've never used a slide rule, but I have actually seen one in use. That may qualify me for antique status these days!

I never took math higher than geometry/algebra, so I think that calculators were not really missed in my high school math. I didn't like it; but I don't think the presence of calculators would have made it that much better, and I don't think I would have actually learned as much math.

I then found what I think was the last liberal arts college in the US that did not require math. If you were willing to take 4 lab science courses. Fine with me! After I transferred elsewhere, I took finite, but we were allowed, and actually encouraged, to use calculators. It made things a great deal easier - but we already had some idea of what we were trying to do. I think this is my primary problem with children being encouraged to use calculators in elementary school.

Times change, but we need to have some sense about it. Simple math & being able to make change without relying on a calculator aren't that hard. It's pure laziness not to be able to do it in your head - with the proper education.

When I took physics in 9th grade, there were a few calculators out, but they were very expensive & banned. We had to use slide rules, which have a 3 digit accuracy for those of you too young to have used them.

When I took advanced physics in my senior year, a calculator was allowed & appreciated. 8 digit accuracy was considered a higher priority, but a slide rule & 3 digit answer was acceptable since they were so expensive. I got one that was the size of a paperback, had a memory function & rechargeable battery. It was over $100. Now that same type is the size of a large watch & given away for free.

When my oldest boy took physics, he had a graphing calculator that he re-programmed half the memory on to be a database or a set of games, depending on his needs/mood. I had issues with him & that calculator because I think anyone should be able to look at a quadratic & be able to have a general idea of what it looks like on a graph, so he lost it until he proved that he could. My requirement, not the school's.

Several times I've had to tell the teller at the store what the correct change would be, if the machine isn't telling her.

But I actually went to school in a place and time where calculators were specifically banned.

How times have changed!

Years ago I read a sci-fi short story, where the earth was under siege. Computers and calculators were disabled. They discovered that one could add, subract, multiply and divide with consistency w/o using calculators. Earth won.

I would have loved to have a calculator in high school and college for trig, though.

Will wrote: "I met my wife's high school history teacher. It seems that, yes, she did teach her students that the Revolutionary War was the result of the 1776 Declaration of Independence..."

One of my kid's teachers taught the same thing, although not the 1812 thing. Ugh! Parents MUST discuss what their kids are learning at school. The schools can get so far out in left field it is incredible.

A myth of 'better' educational methods, to nod at the topic: When my youngest boy was a first grader, he was given a calculator. The emphasis was now going to be on setting up problems, not bothering the poor dears with memorizing facts like 1+1=2.

I nixed the idea in a polite note. "No, I will not give him a calculator. He needs to learn the basics. Are you crazy?!!! Call me to discuss."

No call, but they gave him a calculator for his math homework. I sent him back to school with a note again. "Do NOT give him a calculator. Call me to discuss, if problems."

He returned that night with the calculator again. I stomped it into pieces, put them in a plastic bag & allowed him to return it to school with another note. This one was not polite. I also showed up at school & raised hell. I did not pay for the calculator.

In fifth grade, he was the only kid who could add a page of simple single digits together in the time allotted. Stuff like 7+8 & the kids couldn't do 50 problems in 10 minutes. He was done in a couple. Seems they had to do the tests because the kids had never learned the basics properly. Imagine that.
<sigh>

Huh?

Will wrote: "The group term for the most of the native people of the Southwestern United States--Arizona, New Mexico, Four Corners area-- is "Pueblo." Anasazi is more specific. To call someone that's not Anas..."

What sources I could put hands on show that "about" 60,900 Native Americans were involved in the Removal of 1831-1842. [Thornton, 1990:]

The Choctaw Removal was first, commencing in the fall of 1831 under the terms of the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek. [Foreman, 1974:] The Choctaw, numbering about 12,000 [Foreman:] accounted for more than one-quarter of the total number of deaths - more than 4,000 of the total of 15,500. [Thornton, 1990; from Mooney, 1900:].

Now for the Weekend Update: I met my wife's high school history teacher. It seems that, yes, she did teach her students that the Revolutionary War was the result of the 1776 Declaration of Independence...and it began with the invasion of Washington, D.C in 1812.

Who needs Antarctic aliens? (I swear I'm not making this up.)

There's possibly a bit of racist thinking in some cases, and certainly in the idea the non-Africans built Great Zimbabwe. It's also quite possible that some of these types of ideas have their roots in racism but aren't really racist now...they originated with people who held a Eurocentric mindset but have now taken hold without any racist intent from the people that buy into them. I also think that people believe this nonsense for the same reasons they believe in faeries and crop circles and the yeti and the virgin on grilled cheese and trickle down economics. We've all got our favorite myths.

On a related subject, have any of you read Fingerprints of the Gods? Author thinks there was an ancient pre-historic (all human) civilization on Antarctica (before it moved) and that after a cataclysm they spread out all over the world and blah blah blah....

There may be some racism in some cases, but that doesn't explain Stonehenge. I think if you want to look for racism, you can always find it.

I live in a fairly rural area (always have) & the folks aren't always great examples of liberal thinking. When talking about the old Mayan temples & such, I've heard that aliens are often favored, but never because of race, it's always because of technology.

I found this in Wikipedia. Take it for what it's worth. "Despite this evidence, the official line in colonial Rhodesia was that the structures were built by non-blacks." So it may well be a racist thing; I wasn't aware of it until now.

I was quite aware of racism, just not this one. I had a lot of friends, who left Rhodesia with nothing after years of building the country and aquiring much wealth.

Your co-worker is about my age. We were quite captivated by a documentary that made a good case that Easter Island, the pyramids, and other unexplainable phenonemna were created by visitors from another planet with superior technology. I don't remember the name of the show but it was something about "fiery chariots."

As to "no Africans in Rhodesia"....

My reading of South African history (which once was extensive; I lived and worked in Africa for seven years), is that when the Afrikaners arrived in South Africa, there were only Hottentots (a small, yellow-skinned aboriginal people), which they virtually annihilated. The black Africans from the Central (Zulus, etc) area came there for jobs (mostly mining), later. I never read that of Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe), which was settled and developed by the British.

Archaelologists pretty much agree, I think, that the Great Zimbabwe Temple was built by members of the Bantu tribe, probably in about 1200 A.D. if my memory is correct.

Note: Never trust my memory for anything.

Sorry Jim,
but I believe racism has a lot to do with it.
Great Zimbabwe the ancient temple complex in Africa is a case in point.

Up until the 1930's Europeans insisted it must have been built by the Queen of Sheba as the source of King Soloman's mines; never mind the obvious answer that it must have been built by ancient African kingdoms. Stating that there were no Africans in Rhodesia, let the European settlers feel they had an equal claim on the land.

My point is that people would rather believe the most outlandish theories of space aliens, than to believe the obvious, that ancient civilizations had the capabilities to create such wonderful structures. Most of these civilizations being non European.

I think you're wrong on the 'non-white, non-Europeans' bit. It never had anything to do with race with any of the folks I talked to. People don't seem to think they could have built Stonehenge, either - a much lesser feat. They all think it's technology. They say they didn't have the math, engineering or knowledge.

There's a guy who is moving concrete pylons the size of those at Stonehenge by himself. Standing them upright, moving them around & all. I saw a show on it a year or two ago. He's just using levers, digging some holes, pipes & such to let nature work for him. No power or special equipment.

In grade school history, we were pretty much told that old sailors hugged the coastlines & that's why no one 'discovered' North America before Columbus. Since then, I've read about at least a dozen. I think you're running into an attitude that inflates our modern technology by denigrating what came before it. Common enough. 'My way or it won't work'. You can leave the racism out of it.

My weekend experience
got me thinking about other wild things I've heard, but never said anything.

About 10 years ago I used to have an older (50something) coworker. A very nice man for the most part, but with some the wildest theories and beliefs I've ever heard. He would often discus his beliefs and would sometimes share videos, and documentaries to try and get me to believe too. I suppose what astonished me, was his previous post in military intellegence.

Among his beliefs:
Aliens built the pyramids in Egypt and Mexico.
I have always been surprised why so many people would rather believe space aliens built these incredible monuments, than to believe non white, non Europeans built them....

My coworker's most incredible statement was said with a straight face.
According to him.
Nazi Germany was never really defeated.
The surviving Nazi elites escaped Germany and took their new advanced weapons to Antartica to establish a secret base. The Allies tried to attact them there, but they were defeated by the super Nazi weapons.
Supposedly this great Antartic battle was kept secret from the American public by a huge conspiracy of the govt and military.
He said this secret Nazi base is still operating in Antartica, with the cooperation of the US military. Allegedly, the USA got help from the Nazis to contain and monitor the Russians during the Cold War. Today they use the base to test out new secret technology.

any thoughts?

I sort of have similar experiences, frequently and on purpose. I go to a redneck, biker bar where they spout all sorts of incorrect theories, conspiracies, and neo-conservative political phiolosophy and each re-enforce their prejudices and ignorance. How I manage to survive there, is a mystery. I wait until someone says something really dumb and laugh. I then begin to explain that they are wrong, and why. We'll argue for a while and eventually it seems I won a round. I leave, come back a week later and they're right back where they were before. It's become a ritual and it seems we all look forward to it. They try their best arguments on me and I hone my arguments on them. Where they get some of their ideas scares me, though. None of them are quite as bad as Manuel's overheard experience, though...close. There are a lot of innacuracies floating around about Islam. You can say anything and no one can refute it because we know so little about it, usually. They know I wrote a book on the Middle East, so I kind of cheat in a way.

I would have, however, done what Manuel did and just stayed out of that one and left as he did.

Manuel wrote: "Hi friends,
I know when it comes to history we dont always agree, many times there are differences in interpretations, motives, theories, and conclusions, but nevertheless there is a basis of a so..."

Difficult enough to argue with eejits...but an eejit with "faith" on his side?!
I would have listened and chuckled. But had he approached me and tried the same approach I would probably have talked to him. Not to try and enlighten him (a lost cause) but to see where he was getting the ideas from and how out of touch they were.
I've heard a few weird conspiracy theories in my day, and plenty involving the papacy, but this is a new one. I wonder how he would have explained the crusades? Or his take on the reformation?

I would have probably laughed at him & walked on, if I bothered to do anything. When someone holds a view like that, it's because they want to. Who cares what he thinks? It's a matter of faith to him.

Isaac Asimov said he didn't argue about religion because there wasn't any rational basis. Smart man.

Hi friends,
I know when it comes to history we dont always agree, many times there are differences in interpretations, motives, theories, and conclusions, but nevertheless there is a basis of a sort for our opinions.

Yesterday, I had a painful experience at a local Borders book store.

I was minding my own business, and I couldnt help overhearing a conversation in another aisle. The more I heard, the more annoyed and angry I became.

A (white) teenager was talking/explaining his theories to an older hispanic male.

From his clothes, I could tell the teenager was'nt rich and from his grammar and speech pattern I could tell he was'nt very well educated either. In any case, it was incredibly disturbing to overhear what was said......

Basically he said, Islam was invented by the Catholics as a tool to subjugate the Iranians. The Pope had a plan to undermine Iran, but the plan backfired and the Iranians ended up turning against the Catholics. He told the older man, if he wanted to learn more, he could join the teenager and his local church for bible study on Monday evenings.

As a Catholic I was enraged, and as a lover of history and someone who tries to respect religion, I was livid. I became incredibly angry.....

Angry because I didnt say anything
and angry because I was so disturbed there are people out there who really believed this crap.

In the end I decided there was probably nothing I could have said to change his mind anyway.

Would you guys have said something????? Just curious

True. The Zuni (Pueblo) tribe gave them the title of 'Apache', meaning "enemy." In their own language, they use "Tinde," which means "People." They've become proud of the 'Apache' word, though. They were once part of the Navajo tribe and broke away. They were some of the fiercest warriors, ever.

From Wikipedia: The term "Anasazi" is not preferred by their descendants, though there is still some controversy amongst them on a native alternative. The word Anasazi is Navajo for "Ancient Ones" or "Ancient Enemy."

I hadn't heard the "ancient enemy" translation until now. I thought it was "ancient ones" or "ancient people."

On that note: I remember reading somewhere that Apache meant "enemy".
Myth or true?

You are correct Marian,
Apparently Anasazi was a name given to them by their enemies.

This info. might have come from a Tony Hillerman novel, but I remember reading that "Anasazi" in the Navaho language means "Ancient enemy". The various nations in the 4 corners area have fought each other in the years before 1491, perhaps the people called
"Anasazi" had been former enemies of his people.

The group term for the most of the native people of the Southwestern United States--Arizona, New Mexico, Four Corners area-- is "Pueblo." Anasazi is more specific. To call someone that's not Anasazi the wrong word may be insulting, but used correctly for the right peoples it's not derogatory that I ever heard of. I know many people here in NM that refer to themselves as Anasazi. We have hotels that use it as their name, "Anasazi Inn." It's owned and run by the Anasazi people. Anasazi is an ancient tribe that not all Pueblo people trace their lineage back to or are proud of, I guess.

It has nothing to do with anything, but....

Here in New Mexico we have many Pueblo tribes. Each tribe has a festival day (Saint's Day--different tribes, different saints). During their festival they dance all day, taking turns from different tribes who gather at neighboring puelos. They cook and eat all day. Total strangers are invited into their houses to share their food. Entire bus-loads of people come out to watch and they are often invited into the houses for the best food anyone can ever have. The next week, they do it at another pueblo village, and then again at another pueblo.

I'm a nice guy and love to cook for people, but I can't imagine going out to invite tourists to come inside and eat my food! There is no financial reward, no compensation, no reason other than that's how they celebrate their lives. I think it's awesome but don't really understand it.

The Trail of Tears was to Oklahoma, where I'm from originally. My grandmother was Choctaw. The Five Civilized Tribes died and starved along the Trail and at their eventual destination--Oklahoma; to many, an act more egregious than slavery. It was essentially genocide. Some survived and assimilated into Western society. Most died.

Interesting, Manuel.

Did he suggest a term he would prefer?

A few years ago, I was rafting down the Colorado River through the Grand Canyon.

During one of the calm stretches of the river, I thought I was asking an inteligent question about native Americans to our river guide.

I used the term "Anasazi", refereing to ancient settlers in Arizona and New Mexico.

A look of disgust came over his face as he informed me "Anasazi" was not a polite word to describe ancient native Americans, in fact it was insulting.

I was shocked. I had been using that term since I learned about them watching Carl Sagan's Cosmos series in the 80's.

Probably very true, Barbarossa. Add in that history is often not taught very well, and you end up with some very bizarre beliefs in the general population.