Ceridwen's Reviews > Ulysses

Ulysses by James Joyce
My rating:
didn't like it it was ok liked it really liked it it was amazing
add to my books

by
1055856
's review
Nov 19, 09

bookshelves: abandoned, fiction, not-for-me-maybe-for-you, capital-m-modern, celts
Recommended to Ceridwen by: Morwenna
Read in November, 2009

Update: I've been trolled twice now on this review, and I'm going to take down my stars because I think it's like a red-flag to a certain kind of intellectual asshole. I've always been bothered by the rating-system, and this is perfect example of how radically imprecise that metric is. I don't care what these jerks think of me or my opinion, but I'm sick of people triggering off over a rating. I do believe I will try to read this again some day. I can't say the stars will change, but maybe I can help from getting trolled by irrational virgins again.

------

I “finished” “reading” this about two weeks ago and have been grappling with the following question for the last fortnight: am I the kind of asshole who doesn't rate Ulysses? It turns out that yes, yes I am. From the very beginning, I struggled with the idea of meaning in Ulysses - due in part because of stupid blurbs like Anthony Burgess's on the back on my copy: “Everybody knows now that Ulysses is the greatest novel of the century.” Of course, this blurb is about as douche-baggy as it comes. “We” all “know” that this is the “greatest” novel, do we, “Anthony”? (Yes, I am aware that sarcasm is the refuge of the weak.) It may be stupid, but this quote does gesture to the common knowledge of this novel's cult/occult status as one of the gnarliest books ever, the holy grail of really hard reads, the kind of thing to notch on your bedpost after its conquest. You won't take me, Ulysses, I''ll take you.

There's an implicit challenge in all of this critical jizz blown over Ulysses, one that I was willing to take on when my sister proposed we read this. We'll all go in together! It'll be fun! Nothing can stop us now! So I start reading, and I immediately start having a problem with the idea of meaning, but – this is the almost funny part – I had no idea how deep my trouble with meaning went. I hack my way through roughly 200 pages, and then decide its time to bust out my reader's guide, knowing full well that I'm so awesome that I don't really need it, and it'll just tell me that I'm awesome and then I can go back to reading. Alas, what it told me was that not only did I not get the billions of Classical references, something I was more or less prepared for, but that I didn't even get the simple, concrete meaning of the action. For example, I thought, when Stevie D was out walking on the quay, that there actually was a whale that some people were cutting up. Nope, this is some imagining into the past, a glimpse of ancient Ireland. Arg!

Not long after this confrontation with the edges of my entirely not-Classical education, one of my fellow readers send me this link. (Thanks Gary!) If you're not interested in popping out and watching this right now, I'll describe it: it's a Marx Brothers skit, in which Groucho is at the races, trying to determine which horse he should bet on. Harpo comes up, purportedly selling ice cream, but then he offers to sell Groucho a track guide. He does, but then it turns out he needs another book to read the first book, and then another to read that, on and on until he's given Harpo most of his money, and then bets on the wrong horse anyway. Ha, funny right? I would have to read an entire mountain of books to get what is up in Ulysses, and then, like the joke I just explained, I wonder if I would just be murdering to dissect, killing the punch line cold.

This is the thing: I'm not sure that this is what Joyce would want, not that I've ever given much credit to a writer's intent. Despite all the hand wringing I've been doing about Meaning, worrying about not “getting” the joke and all that, Ulysses itself is entirely, aggressively anti-Meaning, in the Classical, epic, heroic sense of the term. Nothing – and I mean nothing – is too base and low not to warrant his attention, not Bloom taking a leisurely morning crap while reading the paper, not having a shave, not bickering in a coach on the way to a funeral. It's the great anti-Epic. It may claim to be a novel, but the language has the luminous fracture of Modernist poetry, skimming along just outside of form in an almost self-conscious parody of itself. I suspect if I had a six thousand hour audiobook of this novel, I would have enjoyed it more, letting the words wash in their ebb and flow, and quit trying to catch fish out of the river. (Also, if Joyce had read it himself – he had a lovely voice.) The Epic creates heroes out of sociopaths – I'm looking at you Achilles. (Or the Devil in “Paradise Lost”, although I think probably poor Milton is rolling in his grave about what the Romantics did with his depiction of Old Scratch.) Ulysses doesn't just turn this upside down and create sociopaths out of heroes, but something weirder and more sly: he makes the banal unheroic. Which is what it was to begin with. Which kinds of makes my head hurt, but in the very best way.

This is just a bit a personal weirdness, but while I was reading, I kept thinking of this oddball story I was told once. Tom is a colleague of mine, and once, he was in the process of moving all of his stuff from one apartment to another. Everything he owned was all heaped in the back of his truck, held in by gravity and magic. He's on the freeway, and feels his stuff shift, and watches in horror as it slides off the back of the truck one piece at a time, spilling out onto the open road. As each item hits the pavement, it breaks into pieces, and those pieces roll and become smaller pieces, until almost everything he owns is strewn over a quarter mile of highway. He exits and doubles back around, and stands fishing out the few things that haven't been utterly destroyed by their recent bout with gravity and its consequences. He does this quickly, as he's pretty sure he's going to get some massive fine for being a litterbug if a State Trooper happens by. Reading Ulysses was for me like watching the English language fall off the back of the truck and break into a billion pieces. I could fish out the odd lamp, but the rest was debris. It's funny when this happens to someone else – poor Tom – but it sure wasn't funny when it happened to me.

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Comments (showing 1-50 of 773) (773 new)


message 1: by Buck (new)

Buck Hey, is your sister on GR? If not, why not? I'd love to have some more local representation around here. I had to unfriend some of my real-life homies because they weren't pulling their weight. Typical bloody Canadian apathy.


message 2: by Ceridwen (last edited Dec 01, 2009 02:06pm) (new) - added it

Ceridwen Yeah, she's around, but she doesn't do much with the bookface - we end up talking on the phone about what she's reading more often than not. Yes! International phone bills!

I've definitely unfriended the real-life homies who don't write book reports, because what good are they? I'm beginning to think that those of us who are semi-obsessed with bookface - you can count yourself in this crowd, or not, it's up to you - have this odd mixture of introversion and exhibitionism. Seriously, think about it, they're not mutually exclusive.


message 3: by Sparrow (new) - added it

Sparrow We like our hilarious personalities to be on display, but we don't want a bunch of fools looking at our tattoos.


message 4: by Buck (new)

Buck Ceridwen and Morwenna? God, your parents had a twisted sense of humour.

Introversion and exhibitionism? Isn't that like doing it with the blinds open and the lights off? But, yeah, writing in general is one way for awkward losers to get their revenge on life, others being Warcraft and IT start-ups.


message 5: by Ceridwen (last edited Dec 01, 2009 02:06pm) (new) - added it

Ceridwen We like to think of the twisted sense of humor as a family trait. You should hear what I named my own kids. Also, Mum's on bookface too, so we should all mind our ps and qs. Oops.


message 6: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen Also, I had this great conversation with a client two days ago. She told this long tale about not letting a workman into the house because he was covered in tattoos, etc, then looks at me, I think maybe for the first time really looks at me, and starts backpedaling furiously. Yours are so lovely! And so demure! etc. I don't ride a motorcycle, or some of the the other sins this workman committed, so she let me into the house. Phew!


message 7: by Gary (new) - added it

Gary ha ha! My son the photographer works part time at a tatoo place in Boston. Everytime I see him, he has a little more. They look great.
Since I could get them for free, who knows I may take the plunge someday.

But back to Ulysses. This is a book I've always wanted to read, but figured it would take a lifetime. How is it going for you?


Elizabeth Are you really reading this? I thought Middlemarch was bad enough but you're making me feel inadequate for only suffering through the second most boring tome on earth.


message 9: by Ceridwen (last edited Nov 19, 2009 03:11pm) (new) - added it

Ceridwen I'm only kind of reading this, but I admit I'm screwing around with this and Middlemarch, waiting for one of them to catch me up and make me love them. It hasn't happened yet, but I'm still a book romantic. When I understand what's going on, this book can be very funny.


message 10: by jo (new)

jo funnily enough, the review makes it sound as if you you liked the book... yet you give it only two stars!


Elizabeth Fantastic, Ceridwen, although the review makes me want to read it in the, "Ew! Taste this," kind of way.


message 12: by Buck (new)

Buck You were right. I shouldn't have thrown away my vote on that cross stitch thing. I mean, it was a good review, but this is epic. Or anti-Epic. Or whatever.

Given my stupid GR pseudonym, I should probably be defending Ulysses about now. But you've slapped it around so skillfully--and yet somehow affectionately--that I just feel sorry for the poor thing. I want to hold it and stroke its hair.

Let me add that the "oddball story" you told feels profoundly apt to me. Not just about Ulysses. About a lot of things.



message 13: by Eh?Eh! (new)

Eh?Eh! Ceridwen wrote: "...(Yes, I am aware that sarcasm is the refuge of the weak.)...."

I don't want you to be strong.

I will never be able to read this book - I miss so many allusions and allegories in books that are not claimed to be "the greatest novel of the century" (although many books have someone who will give it this worn praise). Now, if there was a way to transmute this into a math test, I would do better.


message 14: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen the review makes it sound as if you you liked the book... yet you give it only two stars!

I'm always stupidly dithering about the star system because it's so radically imprecise. It was *ok*? I *liked it*? What are we, in grade school? Check this box if you like me? So this was a real toughy for me. I couldn't say I liked it, exactly, but the language is just absolutely killer, debris field and all. I like it when things blow up, and Joyce blows English up good. He also detonates nationalism, heroics, plot, meaning, and probably a dozen other things that I didn't understand.

I've seen lots of cases of people popping into negative reviews and lobbing charges of not understanding at the reviewer - and I have to say I'm really happy you didn't rag on me, my portly, stately friend, monikers notwithstanding - but if someone were to come over and tell me that I didn't like it because I didn't understand it, I would have to say they were right. (And this would be a first. Usually when people say this, it's a total dick-move, designed to make the lobber look like a smarty-pants.) I feel kind of bad about this, not because of blurbing douchebags, but because what little I did understand was beautiful and funny and seemed to hit on themes I totally get off on. I may be a total abuser, but I want to sit and stroke its hair too, even if I just threw it against the wall. Poor Ulysses.


message 15: by Sparrow (new) - added it

Sparrow this is the greatest review of the century. everybody knows it.


message 16: by Ceridwen (last edited Nov 19, 2009 05:47pm) (new) - added it

Ceridwen "This" is the greatest "review" of the "century." Everybody "knows" it.


message 17: by Sparrow (new) - added it

Sparrow Oh, I see we're back up and running. Whew! My life got so literal while the sarcasterizer was down.


message 18: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen I've got an analog Sarcasterizer. It's hard to maintain, fills an entire room, and breaks down all the time, but I managed to get it up and running for my review. Yes!


message 19: by Sparrow (new) - added it

Sparrow That comment is the greatest comment of the century. Okay, I'll stop now. I need to get me one of those analog Sarcasterizers. Best idea of the century. Okay, I'm done.


message 20: by Rose (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rose Gowen Funny, Ulysses is the only book you and I have in common-- I gave it 5 stars, but I doubt I understood or appreciated more than you did. I certainly couldn't write a review for it as excellent as this one! (For me it's 5 stars because whether I "get it" or not, it just changes the game.)


message 21: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen Thanks, Rose. In the dithering, I considered giving it five stars, because it is amazing. But it's also "amazing", a term my grandfather always used as a kind of insult. (I can just see him watching the evening news and saying this: well, *that's* amazing.) Maybe if I were to go in and rate five separate editions with five different ratings, and they can all exist in a kind of quantum uncertainty together, that might capture how divided I feel about the whole thing. I think that Ulysses gave me the biggest star-system melt-down yet, which is saying something, given how prone to meltdown I am. (I definitely need more hobbies.)


Michael Dworaczyk Loved your review, even though I happen to agree with Anthony B. I had bought a guide to it when I read it, Ulysses Annotated, I believe it was called. But ended up not using it. I realized I was probably missing out on most of the references, but didn't care. I just decided to dive in, and figured I would either sink or swim. Did the dog-paddle through a lot of it, but I still had a blast. So now are you itching to read "Finnegan's Wake?" Yeah, me neither, actually.


message 23: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen *cough cough* Yeah, Finnegan's Wake. That would be awesome!

You know, Michael, I wonder now if I would have been okay hacking my way through had I just left well enough alone with the reader's guide. I have a thing with WWI and what a sea-change it was for all kinds of things, and Ulysses certainly fits into that personal obsession.


Elizabeth Read Mrs. Dalloway instead. :-)


message 25: by JSou (new)

JSou Love your review! Though it kind of scares me; I had planned to read this along with some friends in January...


message 26: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen I wonder if the way to tackle Ulysses would be to go to one of those wacky Bloomsday things, and just completely immerse yourself in the totality of it. Although, then you'd have to wait until June...and have to live in a place where they do that sort of thing. So maybe this isn't helpful advice at all.

I can't even say if reader's guides are a good idea or not - I suspect if I hadn't cracked mine so late in the game, I might have kept reading - or if I'd cracked it sooner, then I might have gotten more out of it. I read really distractedly these days - there's just too much chaos and kids bothering me for fruit snacks for me to give something my undivided attention, and I suspect that this book requires that, for better or for worse. If I were a student, or retired, or fabulously wealthy and vacationing in Dublin...maybe it would have gone another way.


Elizabeth I was talking to an English major, used bookstore owner, and generally best read person of my acquaintance about Ulysses before a trip to Ireland a few years ago. He's read it and thought it brilliant so I asked him if he thought I should bring it for the flight, figuring that if I had nothing else to do, I might read it straight though. He said I would probably end up attacking the other passengers for their reading materials, ending up in the little plastic handcuffs, and spending the entire time I should have been in Dublin, is some sort of transitory prison waiting for a hearing and deportation back to the US.

He did not recommend the immersion method.


message 28: by JSou (new)

JSou Good to know.

I'm still debating on getting the reader's guide. At first, I was thinking of just reading through on my own, and then maybe a re-read later on with the guide to see what I missed. In reality though, I'm questioning an actual re-read. I'm familiar with kids begging for fruit snacks as well. All. The. Time.


message 29: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen Mighty Morphin Power Rangers, that was hai-larious, Elizabeth!


message 30: by Gary (last edited Nov 22, 2009 05:29am) (new) - added it

Gary This is without a doubt the best review in my lifetime!
I'm in the midst of reading Ulysses myself, as you know. I'm only a quarter of the way through and your review rings true.

The explosion of form can make my head spin, yet I like the ride. I have all the help books, but find I turn to them a bit less as I move along. I'm even reading The Odyssey to gain some insights.

What a great review Ceridwen!
When do we start Finnegan's Wake?


message 31: by Abigail (last edited Nov 23, 2009 01:35pm) (new)

Abigail It may claim to be a novel, but the language has the luminous fracture of Modernist poetry, skimming along just outside of form in an almost self-conscious parody of itself. I suspect if I had a six thousand hour audiobook of this novel, I would have enjoyed it more, letting the words wash in their ebb and flow, and quit trying to catch fish out of the river.

Loved your review, Ceridwen! Beautiful... I was in Dublin on Bloomsday once, that was rather frightening.
I know I've related this story elsewhere on GR, but I signed up for a Joyce course, way back in the college days, only to discover that the instructor was a bit of a jerk (and by "bit of a jerk," I mean "raving, obnoxious misogynist"). He liked to go on, in his rather boring way, about Nora's many grammatical errors, and how Joyce incorporated them into his work. I eventually decided to drop the course, as I was taking an overload that semester, all reading-intensive classes. I distinctly recall his smirk, when I went to him with the papers to sign. "Too much reading?" he asked... I don't think I've ever come so close to homicide...


message 32: by Bonnie (new)

Bonnie Love your review and the fact that you actually finished reading the book! I took it on a trip once: the only book I took; I figured if I did that, then I would read it. At the end of the trip, I had read half - maybe if I had gone twice as long I would have finished it. As it was, once home, it went back onto the shelf and there it sits, to this day...


message 33: by Ceridwen (last edited Nov 23, 2009 10:28am) (new) - added it

Ceridwen Oh, Bonnie, I didn't mean to misrepresent. I only "finished" "reading" this, meaning I got @ 1/3 of the way into it, and then gave up. But I figure 200 pages of Ulysses counts for at least one of the stupid things I read and then never bother to review.

And Abigail: Man do I hate teachers like that! Sometimes I get all wistful about school: isn't it dreamy to read and talk about books with other people? It's good to be reminded the evil weasels one encounters in the academy as well.

Gary: I'm planning on being defeated by Gravity's Rainbow next. But not until after the holidays. I plan on being defeated by them first.


message 34: by Claire (new) - added it

Claire S I want to read Ulysses. I want to 'get' Joyce, and feel all re-connected with my Irish heritage. I want to get insights into my current work situation from Ulysses. I want Ulysses to launch my own writing career. Is there Gaelic in Ulysses? If so, I also want to gain a foothold in becoming familiar with Gaelic while reading it too.
I understand that all of these wants are completely unrealistic.
Each time I read a review, especially such an amazing one, I'm able to better orient myself to the eventual engagement with it.
From yours, Ceridwen, my newest idea about doing Ulysses is to run at it on all these different levels, to sort of sing along while Joyce sings it (preferably louder). If nothing else, would be a hilarious lark. Thanks for the great review!


message 35: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen Thanks Claire. There is some Gaelic in Ulysses, although there's probably more Latin and French. I'm pretty sure they teach Gaelic in St Paul - at least my sister took classes back in the day, through one of the big Irish organizations. She never got very far, but at least now she can pronounce written Gaelic correctly, which is a skill I wish I had.

I don't have the edition I actually read listed, because I couldn't find it in a lazy search. The intro of my edition is by Declan Kiberd, and it was a pleasure to read. He did just a lovely job of situating Joyce in with the other Big Irish Cats of the time, like Yeats and the Irish League and all that. Happy to send it your way...


message 36: by Claire (new) - added it

Claire S Oh, ok, thanks very much! Let me see what I have, it might even be that same one. Otherwise I'll let you know, that would be wonderful.
And yes, it is awesome to have some Irish culture here. I have a 'Learn Irish' DVD on the way to me right now from Netflix! For a slight flavor of it all.. One of these eons.. -sigh- ~.


message 37: by Abigail (last edited Nov 24, 2009 04:03pm) (new)

Abigail Like Cerdiwen's sister, I took Irish classes at a local cultural institute. I've got the text we used (produced for the Tara Circle) listed here: Irish for Everyone

I've been meaning to return to it, and study more seriously. Perhaps, Claire, we could get a correspondence going?


message 38: by Claire (new) - added it

Claire S Abigail, that would be Awesome!!! I have some home study materials as well. But I'll need for it to be very easy-going and kind of minimal for a bit, while hockey season is going on .. (thru Feb). Crazy busy through then! I'll message you..


Elizabeth Nah, nah, na, na, nah. I finished! :-) And all I can say is, Don't do it, C! It is completely okay to abandon this book, even though I kind of liked it.


message 40: by Tatiana (new)

Tatiana My Mom's Irish, at least her Dad was, and she has like the most enormous anti-Irish prejudice ever. It's kind of funny here because nobody in the U.S. (that I know of) hates the Irish.

I knew a guy who was in the British Army in Northern Ireland for a long while and HE certainly does. He uses, for instance, the name Patrick as someone else might use an obscene epithet. "Way to go, Patrick!" with heavy sarcasm, you know? We thought it was hilarious that he's like that, even though prejudice is pretty ugly no matter who is its target. I don't think it's a good thing and I've tried hard not to catch it from my Mom. But there's something about a prejudice that almost nobody else has (locally) that seems somehow less vicious and evil.

Anyway, I think of all of these Irish writers that I can't quite see them in a way that's completely clear of my mother's anti-Irish prejudice. I read The Dubliners and liked it fairly well. I started Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man and liked the first chapter. I can't remember why I didn't read more, but it wasn't because I didn't like it. I have a copy of Ulysses, this very edition, and I just can't make up my mind from reading what people think about it whether I'm going to love it or hate it. Should I read it or not? Ceridwen, you're pretty convincing that I shouldn't.

I have a friend whose parents are Indian who seems to really dislike Indian languages and cultural stuff, too. He pretends he can't even speak the language his parents spoke in their home from the time of his birth, though I know he can. And I know someone else whose family comes from Eastern Europe and he really dislikes his ethnic background as well. He's sort of like Borat (Sasha Baron Cohen) in the way he makes fun of his parents' cultural heritage. Is this a phenomenon that people are familiar with, this hatred of one's parents' ethnicity or culture? It seemed so counter-intuitive but I keep meeting more examples. =)

William Butler Yeats is a very good poet. He's clearly an excellent poet. But I just really really dislike him as a person. I'm angry at him. Is it partly because he's Irish? I'm not sure. But like the poem Leda and the Swan just enrages me. He supposedly loved this Irish beauty named Maude Gonne and compared her to Helen of Troy and all that, but he seemed only to like her looks and not her personality. "Opinions are the worst", he cursed in his poem for his daughter. Please let her not have opinions. Yeah. Also, his passionate unrequited love for Maude Gonne that went on for years and years ... was just creepy. He put her down in poems like Leda, even while he sang her praises. "Oh she had not these ways / when all the wild summer was in her gaze" and so on. Grrr, how despicable! So even though his poetry is astonishing and lovely, I still hate it and him.

I'm thinking I may feel the same way about Joyce. But I'm not sure. I may end up loving him the way I love that rascal William Faulkner despite the fact that he needs to be smacked. Which is it? Ulysses calls to me even while it taunts me from the shelf.

And if I do read it and get really mad at Joyce, will someone help me dig him up and strangle him? It's so annoying when authors to whom one wants to do violence are already safely dead.


message 41: by Ceridwen (new) - added it

Ceridwen I dunno, I think one can safely say that any group of people who get used as mascots for sports teams have some kind of cultural shit being flung their way. Although, yeah, I see that it's not as strong a prejudice (here in the States) as others.

It's interesting you bring up Yeats, because I fell in much the same hole with him - I loved/love him, but he's such a fascist! All the paramilitary rah-rahing! The intro to the edition I "read" by Declan Kibard, which was just fantastic, talked about how Joyce was in some ways the anti-Yeats, partially because Joyce was (and is) one of the few famous Irish native sons who was Catholic - and while we Americans tend to think this is a theological divide, and it is on some level, it's also intensely cultural, in Ireland.

I don't know if you'll love this or not. Maybe Joyce needs to be slapped, but not in the same way Yeats needs to be slapped. In my review of The Bray House I went off about Irish writers and how they always seem to write in exile - why? So weird.


message 42: by Kelly (last edited Feb 22, 2010 08:53am) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Kelly In my review of The Bray House I went off about Irish writers and how they always seem to write in exile - why? So weird.

I think I can maybe answer this. It was in large part due to the fact that there was simply no money in Ireland until the last two decades- especially not for artists. The majority of the island lived in extreme poverty, with many social problems that accompanied that. If you wanted to get paid/didn't conform to conservative Catholic standards in your lifestyle, you went elsewhere. Also, many of them were educated elsewhere because the schools were better, and also the schooling was often divided on religious lines. If you were Protestant, the better schools were in England. For Catholics, Trinity was the best you were gonna do- no Oxbridge for them.


Duffy Pratt Liked your review. For me, the key to Joyce is to lower your expectations (not of Joyce but of yourself). Does it really matter if you get every classical reference or not? Most of them are jokes, and if someone has to explain the joke to you, its probably not going to be all that funny anyway. But that brings up another point: one of the main reasons for reading this book, outside of academia at least, is because it is very funny. The industry that propped up around it turned it into something solemn and stodgy. But that's the industry, and not the book. Read the book on your own, without all the expectations, and maybe you will find something funny and very likeable, with some of the best writing anywhere. (You should at least try to read the newsroom chapter and the one that follows, which is on the beach.)


Caris I have to agree with John here. You're completely wrong about everything. Ulysses is written at a third grade level. Everyone who has every started it has finished it. probably within a day. It's fucking child's play and you should be ashamed of yourself for admitting that you had trouble with it.

And furthermore, intended meaning is the only meaning that means anything in a meaningful way. The work cannot stand on its own; we must know what Joyce, in this primary school reader, actually MEANT.

Am I the only one on this site who doesn't have a severe mental disorder?!


message 45: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael What is meaning if it isn't part of the author's intentional stance?

A very interesting question, and it's one that has been endlessly debated. From an objectivist point of view, the text itself is imbued with the truth that it contains, and we either percieve or misinterpret this "truth."

However, from a subjectivist point of view, all meaning from a text is made by the reader as the words are read from the page; the author, in finishing and publishing the work, no longer has any ownership of the "truths." His/her ability to communicate the truth is what matters. The truth is what is actually being percieved, not what someone was thinking at some distant point in time when the book was written. Or, at least, this is how I understand that position.

But, I tend to be more of a social constructionist, holding the belief that a discourse between writer and reader is where the meaning is created. If the author cannot clearly articulate his/her ideas, it doesn't matter what was intended: the truth is what is understood. This is, of course, truth with a lower-cased "T", not some ultimate truth James Joyce felt kind enough to bestow upon us mortals. The same holds true if a book is a jumbled mess: if nobody understands the book's "truth" as the author envisioned it, then is the book's "truth" still what the author had in his/her head? If not, perhaps Joyce MEANT his book to be more of a cult classic, i.e. a book that appeals to a very select audience with select tastes.

If truth really IS whatever the author envisioned it to be, and not what is understood by the reader, then those new Star Wars movies are fuckin' awesome.


message 46: by Sparrow (last edited Oct 14, 2010 02:45pm) (new) - added it

Sparrow Not to wax tangential, but I think this also brings up the age old question of whether Sam really was Sam, in Seuss' breakfast classic. Although he says, "I am Sam; Sam I am," I propose that Sam is merely a nominal signifier representing Seuss' complex relationship with the Catholic mass. It's moderately tricksy, but I can think of no better reason for Seuss to include a small hobbit-like character with such forceful opinions about communal eating.

I didn't have anything helpful to say, but somehow I got kicked off this thread, and I want back in.


message 47: by Eh?Eh! (new)

Eh?Eh! Caris wrote: "And furthermore, intended meaning is the only meaning that means anything in a meaningful way."

You mean the only meaning is the meaning the author meant, and nothing else? That means the meaning I've been finding in books is wrong, because who the heck knows what authors mean when they're dead.


Caris Eh? Eh! wrote: "That means the meaning I've been finding in books is wrong, because who the heck knows what authors mean when they're dead."

And that is exactly what I am getting at here. You're wrong. What is the point of writing a book if those who read it are simply going to take away from it whatever they'd like? Why think at all? Books are vessels for information. And that information is intended.

It is not hard to know what an author meant. One merely has to read his books. Authors cannot help it if you're too stupid to understand. That's your own fault.

Fucking idiots.


message 49: by Eh?Eh! (new)

Eh?Eh! John wrote: "It's consistently listed as one of the greatest books written in the twentieth century. Whether you agree or disagree, near-universal popularity sort of undermines the whole notion of a cult classic."

How's the air up in that ivory tower? I'd never heard of these books until I started puttering around on this site. Literature isn't my area of expertise. You should qualify your "near-universal" claim by defining that universe. It shrinks down to be a cult classic.


message 50: by Eh?Eh! (new)

Eh?Eh! Caris wrote: "You're wrong."

You're mean.


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