Funny, I just saw this as a Hot Pick on Queens Library website. I want to read it. Haven't read John Irving since college...The World According to Garp Say a Prayer for Owen Meany and Cider House Rules. I'd love to hear what you think.

So far it's vintage Irving. He is able to create these special places that make the world sreem more humane than the non-Irving world. His prose is somewhat awkward, however.

I'm more than half done and I still can't find a plot. Things happen: Bill realizes that he is bi and he acts on it. Those are details or events, not plot. People say that there are only six or seven plots in literature. Just because Bill meets girl, boy, and girl who wants to be a boy, that does not constitute a plot. There needs to be a conflict which the main character has to resolve in some way. So far, I can't see it. Bill is bi . So?
I'll continue reading, but after your review, it's going to be difficult. You don't give me much hope.

I agree....except for Miss Frost, they never come alive.

Wow. Irving's characters, in this lovely book, are as deliciously alive as any in Cider House, Garp, Owen Meany, A Widow, or any of his other remarkably honest and uncompromising books. I so admire his chutzpah. And I adore his language. His characters are made manifest, and, when they choose to speak, they speak both truth and poetry.

I must have read a different book. I agree that characters in his best books are memorable but I've sometimes found his writing to be unfocused. I am a fan however which is why I was so disappointed in this. Actually I haven't really liked anything much since A Widow for One Year. Because of the positive reviews off this I was expecting more.

Hi Gary (and others),

An attraction, for me, to Irving is his willingness to digress... to wander. I find him, among his contemporaries, the most willing, and able, to mimic the mechanics of recollection. It's not linear, it's not logical, it's not even necessarily coherent. But it is impeccably honest. It echoes the inherently inchoate processes of the mind, in my opinion...and is, as a result, delicious.

I have enough incongruous stuff going on in my head, I don't need it from anybody else!

I agree with much of what you write about Irving. I don't agree that this one captains him at his best. I found the characters to be wooden and the plot turns unconvincing. I will never forget Homer or Dr. Larch and Owen Meaney is one of my heroes. Melanie was more complex-and to me- more convincing as the angry female than Billy's cousin. The most interesting character here was Miss Frost who disappears early on. I think her story would have been more intriguing than Bill's was.

I meant captures. I hate Apple's predictive capabilities -or should I say, incapabilities!

No worries, Gary. Actually: "captains" works perfectly in this context(!)

Happy to disagree so agreeably, in any event... D

Michelle wrote: "I have enough incongruous stuff going on in my head, I don't need it from anybody else!"

Oh, now, Michelle! Not even as confirmation that you're not the only crazy one out here?

It's one of the blessings of literature.

In my opinion Holden Caulfield saved more young people than Salk's polio vaccine and seat belts combined...

Hi Dana,

It is strange how we seem to agree on many things but are so far about on this book. How do you feel about Thomas Hardy?

Oh boy. Thanks for the question, Gary, and allow me to step into it: I like Hardy, very much. I've read only Far From the Madding Crowd, Casterbridge, Tess, and Jude -- but think I'm ahead of the game, in that respect.

Hardy is clear-eyed in his approach to the ugliness, and unfairness, of life. We can shrug it off now -- but it was bold, on his part, at the time.

So, yes: I am a Hardy Boy.

Sounds like you hit the highlights. I'm just starting Return of the Native but I ripped through the ones that you mentioned in less than a month. I'm ashamed to say that I hadn't read any previously. I think part of me is stuck in the Nineteenth Century. I'm thinking about George Elliott next (I like reading the classics because they're free on my Kindle!)

Thank you for your insightful review. This is the first Irving book I abandoned mid-read.

Hi Julie. I do suggest you pick it up again, and stick with it. (You, too, Gary.) I found this book, like ALL of Irving, a marvelous from-the-inside-out exploration of a marginalized human being. Billy's manifold "infirmities" -- his speech deficit, his sexual confusion, his (self-described) physical deficiencies -- echo throughout Irving's oeuvre. And the echoes resound (and redound): who can read of Elaine and not think of Helen (in Garp)?

My humble suggestion: decontextualize. Don't think of this as a competitor to GARP or CIDER HOUSE RULES or A WIDOW or any number of other titles that you may clutch close to your heart (as I do). Imagine, rather, a novel by an unknown author, and approach it as a bildungsroman. If you remove your regard for (and expectations of) John Irving this novel will sing and soar.

Irving has simply set the bar too damned high -- for himself, and for us. Just get rid of the bar, I say.

I love this book.

Respectfully, -Dana

Dana and Julie

Thank you both for your comments. I am enjoying this discussion more than I enjoyed reading the book! Dana, you have opened my eyes to aspects of the novel which I may have missed in my bitter race to the end. I will consider taking another look at it. I agree that the totality of his work sets a high standard. And I admire his courage for tackling controversy. I also admire your passion for a particular book, especially if you feel that it's under rated.

I haven't finished it yet but already I have to agree with the mind-numbing repetition part... Irving has always used repetition and to good effect, but it feels heavy-handed here.

I agree with you. Most of my complaints are common in his writing. I don't know why I found them so annoying in this one. Maybe I should take another look at it. Or reread one that I loved. I wonder if Garp would seem so amazing to me now. When I was 25, it blew me away.

Hey Dana,

If you still care, I took some time to revisit this. I also read some of the other reviews. Based on your comments and those of others, I'm adding another star. I also picked up A Widow for One Year from a book exchange. I think my copy must have been 'borrowed" by my daughter so I think I'll reread that to see if it's as good as I remember it to be. What did you think of Son of the Circus? Many other good readers hated it but I remember liking it.

I'm reading Salvage the Bones for myself (amazing writing, sense of suspense from the first page) and Heart of Darkness for my students. But I am enjoying this Irving conversation even tho' I haven't read him since Widow for One Year, either. Thanks for the review Gary. And thanks for the provocative comments, Dana and Julie.

One of the great things about Goodreads is that you can follow all these discussions. I call it falling down the rabbit hole. Sometimes I don't emerge for hours.

Somebody convinced me to buy A Prayer for Owen Meany, which will be my first Irving book if I tackle it. Is that a good choice?

I remember liking it. He wrote it during the Reagan years. As I recall it used the boarding school setting to comment on political trends in the US. I think his best book is The Cider House Rules with A Widow for One Year as a close second.

I'll let you know what I think. :-)

I loved Prayer for Owen Meany and Cider House Rules and was very influenced by Hotel New Hampshire at the time that I read it. I am listening to In One Person, which always feels different from reading. I find that I do love Bill/Billy/William. The final third of the book has felt tedious, as if he is trying to tie up all of the loose ends. None of the stories there come alive the way the detailing of his high school years do. I felt that the main point he was trying to make is how all of our lives are often shaped by our intial mad crushes on the right and/or wrong people. If he had worked harder I think the last third of the book could have been great if he had been able to illustrate this point, instead of leaping from one old friend to another to tell what ended up happening to them. bottom line, though, I did love much about this book because my closest friend in my teens/twentys (during the 1070's) was a gay man who didn't even "realize" he was gay until he was 28 and married. If he had grown up today, his life would have turned out very differently. He had a mother as clueless as Bill's, but no Richard Abbot or Grandpa Harry or Miss Frost to love him. In spite of an amazingly successful career and many, many loving friends he died by his own hand five years ago. I think that maybe this is why Irving felt compelled to tell us Bill/Billy/William's story. I just wish he'd done his best work instead of his okay work.

Lynn wrote: "I loved Prayer for Owen Meany and Cider House Rules and was very influenced by Hotel New Hampshire at the time that I read it. I am listening to In One Person, which always feels different from rea..."

Hi Lynn, I'm happy you resuscitated this thread. You raise some very valid points. John Irving has made an enormous contribution to American literature and he deserves to be read and discussed, even-no, especially- when he misses the mark.

A shame that he has been missing so much recently. the first book I hated was Son of the Circus. I thought maybe it was a one time thing, but when The Fourth Hand came along, I thought I'd throw up! Until I Find You, had its moments, but just a few and I did really like A Widow for One Year. Bought, but never read the recent one with River in the title. What do you think? Is he past his prime, does he just not really care about his readers, is he too sure he's right to be open to editing? Or is he in a big rush to tell his stories? i'd be interested to hear what others think.

I recently revisited Garp and was disappointed. It seemed coy and contrived. I never liked Hotel New Hampshire but Cider House, Owen Meaney and A Widow rank among my favorite books ever. I guess we're fortunate for what he gave us. I also think publishers are to blame. Either he's too much of a celebrity to accept editing or they don't bother. I recently finished Infinite Jest and I was struck by echoes of Irving-although none of the critics mentioned him as an influence on DFW. And if a book ever cried out for editing, that was it!