Eric Allen's Reviews > A Dance With Dragons
A Dance With Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5)
by George R.R. Martin
by George R.R. Martin
A Dance With Dragons
By George R. R. Martin
A Review by Eric Allen
George R. R. Martin is considered by many to be the Tolkien of the modern day. If you don’t know what that means, please go read Lord of the Rings like everyone else on earth, you’re probably the only one that hasn’t. Martin is well known for being able to craft extremely realistic worlds and characters, and for not following generally any story archetypes, preferring to come up with stories that might actually have happened in real life long, long ago. He is also famous for ruthlessly killing off main characters in rather pointless ways to illustrate that no one person is any more important than any other, be he king or beggar. This adds a further sense of realism to his books, because in real life even those important to the story of your life are not immune to death.
Like many grand fantasy epics A Song of Ice and Fire began as a trilogy, but A Dance with Dragons was book five in said numerically challenged trilogy, and there is no end in sight. Whilst writing book four, Martin realized that the story he had outlined for that book was far too long to fit in a single volume. And so he decided that he could either write half of the story for all of the characters, or write the whole story for half of the characters. Eventually he decided on the latter, taking most of the characters I didn’t care for and bundling their stories all into one book. This made for a rather painful reading experience, though it did bring me around to one or two characters that I previously had no love for.
After a six year wait, book five has finally been released, the second half of the story that was to be part of book four. I cannot tell you how long I have been waiting for this book to come out. All of my favorite characters in the series that were woefully absent from the last volume are back, and none of the characters I disliked make an appearance at all. It was almost worth the wait.
A Dance with Dragons takes up where book three left on in the lives of Davos Seaworth, Jon Snow, the various Greyjoys, Daenerys Targaryen, Stannis Baratheon, Bran Stark, and Tyrion Lannister. Some plotlines introduced by characters in book four continue on during this book. This book is not a what happens next in the series sort of thing, it’s what is happening with the rest of the characters during the previous book.
Jon Snow grapples with being Lord Commander of the Knight’s Watch, and guarding the wall while King Stannis tries to undermine his authority and take what he needs from the Watch to continue his war for the rightful claim to the throne. Winter is coming, and with it the Others and their undead servants the Whites. Food is scarce, money is even scarcer, civil war tears the seven kingdoms apart and none can hear his calls for aid. He is forced to take the Wilding people from beyond the wall to help man it against the Others. He lets the ancient enemies of the Knight’s Watch, those who have fought against and killed many of his friends on the wall, through to help man it against their common foe, but his own men whisper that when the crisis is averted they will be surrounded by enemies in their own strongholds.
Tyrion Lannister has many misadventures fleeing the Seven Kingdoms after murdering his father, plotting to return and kill the rest of his family as well. He seeks to join with Daenerys as she gathers her forces to protect the city she’s taken as her own to learn how to rule before returning to the Seven Kingdoms to take the throne that is hers.
King Stannis gathers the forces of the North to march on Winterfell to rescue the girl whom he believes to be the last surviving child of Eddard Stark from her marriage to Ramsy Bolton. Elsewhere the young prince, grandson of the former king who was overthrown fifteen years ago reveals himself with an army to conquer the lands that should rightfully be his. He was reported dead as an infant during the rebellion that brought down the monarchy, but through treachery managed to be hidden away in safety awaiting the chance to reclaim what was taken from his family.
And north of the wall, Bran Stark finally comes to the home of the fabled Children of the Forest and the Three Eyed Crow who has called to him since he lost the use of his legs.
The good? After the last book, which had only one character I liked in it, A Dance with Dragons had all of my other favorite characters and only my favorite characters. The world that George R. R. Martin has created for this series is extremely realistic and well thought out. His sparing use of magic as more of a superstitious sort of thing that only undesirables seek after is a refreshing change from fantasy books where magic is the solution to every problem. His grasp of politics and his extremely realistic characters make for a very believable civil war, and illustrate enmities between characters perfectly. Every one of the characters is distinct, with different personalities and goals. His female characters tend to think and act like real women, rather than like how men think women act.
The bad? The cast of characters for these books is huge. There are literally hundreds of named characters, each with his own history that Martin will give once and expect you to remember. To further confuse matters many characters also have the same name, or are named after historical figures or places in his world. For example. There are two men named Pike, a place named Pike, and a Battle of Pike, all of whom are referred to simply as Pike. You’re left to figure out on your own which one he means by the context, and it is not always clear from the context which he’s talking about.
There is a lot of rather harsh language, including the F word and the S word, as well as quite a few other offensive terms for genitalia, and other such things. Practically every single one of the characters in this series says or thinks at least a few words of harsh language during the course of the story.
There is a lot of sex and crude talk of sex. The actual sex scenes are typically not graphic, but the language the characters use to speak of it usually is. HBO recently made a miniseries out of the first book in the series and—surprise surprise—it has more nudity in it than any other TV show or movie ever created outside of pornography. If these things offend you, you might want to steer clear. However, don’t get the idea that this entire series is about nothing but sex, cursing, and nudity. That’s really a very small part of the overall story. I would say read one of the books for yourself and be the judge of whether it’s too much for you or not.
George R. R. Martin has a strange sort of rambling way of telling a story. The way he talks about things is kind of like listening to a senile old man telling stories of his life that don’t have much to do with anything. However, if you’re not paying attention to pretty much everything during these ramblings, you’ll miss something important for when he tightens the strings and pulls the story together at the end in a way that makes all of the rambling make sense. Some people I know have a big problem with that style of writing and have a hard time getting through things that they feel are unimportant only to find at the end that they were incredibly important.
The ugly? This book is yet another in a disturbing trend amongst fantasy series of late, in that it doesn’t have a clear climactic ending. The first book I noticed this in was Crossroads of Twilight by Robert Jordan, but other authors such as Patrick Rothfuss, Terry Goodkind, Orson Scott Card, and now George R. R. Martin have begun to do this as well. The climax is arguably the most important element in the plot. Everything builds toward it until it all comes crashing down in an avalanche of awesomeness. It’s like the reward for finishing the book, you get a clear victory or defeat, something is resolved, and it’s usually in a grand, climactic fashion. Many authors, of late who are writing series seem to believe that since their book is in the middle of the series, it doesn’t need a climax to end with because it’s not the end of the story, but this is very wrong. Each and every book needs a climactic ending, and no, a simple cliffhanger is not a climactic ending. It’s just a lazy way of covering up that your book didn’t have a proper ending. I know that George R. R. Martin is capable of coming up with epic climaxes for his books. Game of Thrones ended with the splitting of the Seven Kingdoms and the Crowning of the King in the North. A Clash of Kings ended with the Battle of King’s Landing. A Storm of Swords ended with the Red Wedding and the Wilding assault on the wall. A Feast for Crows ended with Cersei’s plots falling apart, and the last supporters of King Robb being wiped out. All of those were epic climaxes to epic books, however, A Dance with Dragons basically just ended mid story with vague cliffhangers for each and every one of the characters rather than a clear climactic throwdown. Writers need to stop doing things like this. It takes a great deal of enjoyment out of reading their books when the reader doesn’t get anything to reward them for reading it at the end. The reason people read books is for the ending and this one didn’t have one.
The length between books in this series is ridiculous. I think the shortest time between any of them was four years. This one took six years to get out, and to make things worse, there was another book between this one and the previous one about these characters so the total wait time for the things happening in this book was about ten years. George R. R. Martin seems like he is a perfectionist and wants everything to be absolutely perfect before publishing a book. It takes him an extremely long time to do that as it is, but he also stops to write side projects and publish them. Between A Dance with Dragons and the previous volume in this series he published three other unrelated books. The message boards on his web site are full of basically nothing but people complaining about how incredibly slow he is at getting books in this series out.
And finally, my biggest gripe is that for all the waiting we had to endure for this book, and all the things that were built up in the previous two, nothing really happened that ultimately advanced the plot of the series. It was basically the writer saying "look, this is what the rest of the characters were doing while the important things were happening elsewhere" sort of book. Not much other than characters repositioning themselves for later events in the series happens at all, and, I hate to say this about Georgie boy's work, but you could probably skip most of this book and not be lost when the next one eventually comes out. And I know that George R. R. Martin has a very bad habit of making completely irrelevant seeming things hugely important later on, so I'll probably eat those words in the future, but right now it doesn't look as though the majority of the story of this book just didn't need to be told.
To recap, yes, this book does have its vices, and it is not for everyone. Many people do not like Martin’s style of writing. It didn’t have a clear climax at the ending and far too many cliffhangers. However, one thing that should be mentioned again is that this is half of the story that was supposed to be in a single book. Therefore the climax of the previous book was likely intended to cover this book as well. Martin will likely return to form with the next book in the series, granted that he does not split the next book into two as well. Despite the lack of a clear ending where something has happened, this was still an extremely enjoyable book to read, and finally getting to what happens next with all of the good characters was almost worth not having a clear ending for any of them.
I’m giving this book 4 out of 5 stars due to its lack of a climax, and the use of quite graphic sexual slang and language, as well as other bad language, and the gratuitous number of sex scenes. Martin is a great writer with great ideas, but he sure does have a filthy mind sometimes.
Check out my other reviews.
By George R. R. Martin
A Review by Eric Allen
George R. R. Martin is considered by many to be the Tolkien of the modern day. If you don’t know what that means, please go read Lord of the Rings like everyone else on earth, you’re probably the only one that hasn’t. Martin is well known for being able to craft extremely realistic worlds and characters, and for not following generally any story archetypes, preferring to come up with stories that might actually have happened in real life long, long ago. He is also famous for ruthlessly killing off main characters in rather pointless ways to illustrate that no one person is any more important than any other, be he king or beggar. This adds a further sense of realism to his books, because in real life even those important to the story of your life are not immune to death.
Like many grand fantasy epics A Song of Ice and Fire began as a trilogy, but A Dance with Dragons was book five in said numerically challenged trilogy, and there is no end in sight. Whilst writing book four, Martin realized that the story he had outlined for that book was far too long to fit in a single volume. And so he decided that he could either write half of the story for all of the characters, or write the whole story for half of the characters. Eventually he decided on the latter, taking most of the characters I didn’t care for and bundling their stories all into one book. This made for a rather painful reading experience, though it did bring me around to one or two characters that I previously had no love for.
After a six year wait, book five has finally been released, the second half of the story that was to be part of book four. I cannot tell you how long I have been waiting for this book to come out. All of my favorite characters in the series that were woefully absent from the last volume are back, and none of the characters I disliked make an appearance at all. It was almost worth the wait.
A Dance with Dragons takes up where book three left on in the lives of Davos Seaworth, Jon Snow, the various Greyjoys, Daenerys Targaryen, Stannis Baratheon, Bran Stark, and Tyrion Lannister. Some plotlines introduced by characters in book four continue on during this book. This book is not a what happens next in the series sort of thing, it’s what is happening with the rest of the characters during the previous book.
Jon Snow grapples with being Lord Commander of the Knight’s Watch, and guarding the wall while King Stannis tries to undermine his authority and take what he needs from the Watch to continue his war for the rightful claim to the throne. Winter is coming, and with it the Others and their undead servants the Whites. Food is scarce, money is even scarcer, civil war tears the seven kingdoms apart and none can hear his calls for aid. He is forced to take the Wilding people from beyond the wall to help man it against the Others. He lets the ancient enemies of the Knight’s Watch, those who have fought against and killed many of his friends on the wall, through to help man it against their common foe, but his own men whisper that when the crisis is averted they will be surrounded by enemies in their own strongholds.
Tyrion Lannister has many misadventures fleeing the Seven Kingdoms after murdering his father, plotting to return and kill the rest of his family as well. He seeks to join with Daenerys as she gathers her forces to protect the city she’s taken as her own to learn how to rule before returning to the Seven Kingdoms to take the throne that is hers.
King Stannis gathers the forces of the North to march on Winterfell to rescue the girl whom he believes to be the last surviving child of Eddard Stark from her marriage to Ramsy Bolton. Elsewhere the young prince, grandson of the former king who was overthrown fifteen years ago reveals himself with an army to conquer the lands that should rightfully be his. He was reported dead as an infant during the rebellion that brought down the monarchy, but through treachery managed to be hidden away in safety awaiting the chance to reclaim what was taken from his family.
And north of the wall, Bran Stark finally comes to the home of the fabled Children of the Forest and the Three Eyed Crow who has called to him since he lost the use of his legs.
The good? After the last book, which had only one character I liked in it, A Dance with Dragons had all of my other favorite characters and only my favorite characters. The world that George R. R. Martin has created for this series is extremely realistic and well thought out. His sparing use of magic as more of a superstitious sort of thing that only undesirables seek after is a refreshing change from fantasy books where magic is the solution to every problem. His grasp of politics and his extremely realistic characters make for a very believable civil war, and illustrate enmities between characters perfectly. Every one of the characters is distinct, with different personalities and goals. His female characters tend to think and act like real women, rather than like how men think women act.
The bad? The cast of characters for these books is huge. There are literally hundreds of named characters, each with his own history that Martin will give once and expect you to remember. To further confuse matters many characters also have the same name, or are named after historical figures or places in his world. For example. There are two men named Pike, a place named Pike, and a Battle of Pike, all of whom are referred to simply as Pike. You’re left to figure out on your own which one he means by the context, and it is not always clear from the context which he’s talking about.
There is a lot of rather harsh language, including the F word and the S word, as well as quite a few other offensive terms for genitalia, and other such things. Practically every single one of the characters in this series says or thinks at least a few words of harsh language during the course of the story.
There is a lot of sex and crude talk of sex. The actual sex scenes are typically not graphic, but the language the characters use to speak of it usually is. HBO recently made a miniseries out of the first book in the series and—surprise surprise—it has more nudity in it than any other TV show or movie ever created outside of pornography. If these things offend you, you might want to steer clear. However, don’t get the idea that this entire series is about nothing but sex, cursing, and nudity. That’s really a very small part of the overall story. I would say read one of the books for yourself and be the judge of whether it’s too much for you or not.
George R. R. Martin has a strange sort of rambling way of telling a story. The way he talks about things is kind of like listening to a senile old man telling stories of his life that don’t have much to do with anything. However, if you’re not paying attention to pretty much everything during these ramblings, you’ll miss something important for when he tightens the strings and pulls the story together at the end in a way that makes all of the rambling make sense. Some people I know have a big problem with that style of writing and have a hard time getting through things that they feel are unimportant only to find at the end that they were incredibly important.
The ugly? This book is yet another in a disturbing trend amongst fantasy series of late, in that it doesn’t have a clear climactic ending. The first book I noticed this in was Crossroads of Twilight by Robert Jordan, but other authors such as Patrick Rothfuss, Terry Goodkind, Orson Scott Card, and now George R. R. Martin have begun to do this as well. The climax is arguably the most important element in the plot. Everything builds toward it until it all comes crashing down in an avalanche of awesomeness. It’s like the reward for finishing the book, you get a clear victory or defeat, something is resolved, and it’s usually in a grand, climactic fashion. Many authors, of late who are writing series seem to believe that since their book is in the middle of the series, it doesn’t need a climax to end with because it’s not the end of the story, but this is very wrong. Each and every book needs a climactic ending, and no, a simple cliffhanger is not a climactic ending. It’s just a lazy way of covering up that your book didn’t have a proper ending. I know that George R. R. Martin is capable of coming up with epic climaxes for his books. Game of Thrones ended with the splitting of the Seven Kingdoms and the Crowning of the King in the North. A Clash of Kings ended with the Battle of King’s Landing. A Storm of Swords ended with the Red Wedding and the Wilding assault on the wall. A Feast for Crows ended with Cersei’s plots falling apart, and the last supporters of King Robb being wiped out. All of those were epic climaxes to epic books, however, A Dance with Dragons basically just ended mid story with vague cliffhangers for each and every one of the characters rather than a clear climactic throwdown. Writers need to stop doing things like this. It takes a great deal of enjoyment out of reading their books when the reader doesn’t get anything to reward them for reading it at the end. The reason people read books is for the ending and this one didn’t have one.
The length between books in this series is ridiculous. I think the shortest time between any of them was four years. This one took six years to get out, and to make things worse, there was another book between this one and the previous one about these characters so the total wait time for the things happening in this book was about ten years. George R. R. Martin seems like he is a perfectionist and wants everything to be absolutely perfect before publishing a book. It takes him an extremely long time to do that as it is, but he also stops to write side projects and publish them. Between A Dance with Dragons and the previous volume in this series he published three other unrelated books. The message boards on his web site are full of basically nothing but people complaining about how incredibly slow he is at getting books in this series out.
And finally, my biggest gripe is that for all the waiting we had to endure for this book, and all the things that were built up in the previous two, nothing really happened that ultimately advanced the plot of the series. It was basically the writer saying "look, this is what the rest of the characters were doing while the important things were happening elsewhere" sort of book. Not much other than characters repositioning themselves for later events in the series happens at all, and, I hate to say this about Georgie boy's work, but you could probably skip most of this book and not be lost when the next one eventually comes out. And I know that George R. R. Martin has a very bad habit of making completely irrelevant seeming things hugely important later on, so I'll probably eat those words in the future, but right now it doesn't look as though the majority of the story of this book just didn't need to be told.
To recap, yes, this book does have its vices, and it is not for everyone. Many people do not like Martin’s style of writing. It didn’t have a clear climax at the ending and far too many cliffhangers. However, one thing that should be mentioned again is that this is half of the story that was supposed to be in a single book. Therefore the climax of the previous book was likely intended to cover this book as well. Martin will likely return to form with the next book in the series, granted that he does not split the next book into two as well. Despite the lack of a clear ending where something has happened, this was still an extremely enjoyable book to read, and finally getting to what happens next with all of the good characters was almost worth not having a clear ending for any of them.
I’m giving this book 4 out of 5 stars due to its lack of a climax, and the use of quite graphic sexual slang and language, as well as other bad language, and the gratuitous number of sex scenes. Martin is a great writer with great ideas, but he sure does have a filthy mind sometimes.
Check out my other reviews.
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Nov 19, 2012 05:42am
I agree from reading only the first book that Martin does have a filthy mind. I want to read up to this one gradually but I feel I'm a little disillusioned to it all compared to the others based on what I've seen in A Game of Thrones. The violence doesn't bother me so much as the filthy ideas Martin throws in there. And then it's the illusion of 'realism' he tries to aim at when really not much is actually that different from other fantasies. It's not a gripe about the writing but more what everyone is saying is 'unique' about the book.
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I completely understand. A lot of people tend to forget, in this day and age, that some people really just don't want all of the sex and sexual slang in their books/TV/movies/etc. Just because it is more commonplace now doesn't mean it's not just as offensive to some people. I can usually put up with a whole lot if I'm enjoying a story, but I do find myself skipping a ahead to the end of the shag-a-thon a few times in Martin's books. I mean, yes, people have sex. Does that mean I want to read about it in graphic detail? Not really. Does that mean I want to read extremely crude sexual slang? Definitely not. Some people can take it, others prefer not to. I'm somewhere in the middle. I can deal with it up to a point, but after that it starts to get on my nerves.
Eric wrote: " I'm somewhere in the middle. I can deal with it up to a point, but after that it starts to get on my nerves."Yep, same here. Or sometimes it feels so pointless, like Martin (or any other author who puts sex in their books) is doing it to catch the reader's attention or something. "BWAHAHA SEX SEX SEEEEX, IS THIS NOT SO COOL?" That's when I start rubbing my head and turning pages to see when the damn thing ends already.
Eric wrote: "I completely understand. A lot of people tend to forget, in this day and age, that some people really just don't want all of the sex and sexual slang in their books/TV/movies/etc. Just because it..."I'm also more in the middle. I don't like it in movies but in books I feel that if it's a vague scene or two you can usually skip the details. I really don't want to know what's up with the other people's love lives. If I did I'd be reading gossip columns not fantasy haha.
I don't think there's that much sex or that ASOIAF is that filthy. Possibly that says something about *me* I'm not sure. I'm not sure why some people really hate it but I think Martin was writing for people with a dirty mind like me, so it's all good ... there are plenty of other books out there that *don't* have any sex and violence in. In fact, most of them!
Alex wrote: "I don't think there's that much sex or that ASOIAF is that filthy. Possibly that says something about *me* I'm not sure. I'm not sure why some people really hate it but I think Martin was writing..."You must have a REALLY dirty mind by modern standards.... Almost every person I know shrieks out loud at the name "Stephen King." perhaps humanity has gotten, ah, softer?
ASOIAF is very much about the politics of sex and violence. Sex and sexuality is very much a tool to elicit and control power in Martin's world (as it is in the real world, in fact) so it's important that it's there and that it's graphic.But what's the problem with reading about sex? What's it gonna do, come out the book and bite you? It's just something that people do and y'know, it's kinda fun.
Alex wrote: "ASOIAF is very much about the politics of sex and violence. Sex and sexuality is very much a tool to elicit and control power in Martin's world (as it is in the real world, in fact) so it's import..."Sometimes, for me, the sex feels kind of pointless, and the graphic detail can be so graphic it either 1) gets on my nerves, or 2) feel like it's taking up more space in the book than it should in accordance to how much plot relevance there is to it. If it were a theme, I do wish Martin could be...subtler? Not sure if this is possible or common, I'm fairly new to sex literature. Maybe it boils down to personal preference, whether one finds the sex to be tasteful or not. Though you're right, it is very much a part of the way Martin builds his world and presents his ideas of political power.
I think that if you look at the word count of those books and then actually look at how much of that is devoted to sex or sexual description it'd probably come to a fairly minute percentage. It only jumps out at you because we're conditioned as a society to notice it, to think that it's somehow bad or wrong. (Oh my, he mentioned her breast? goodness! The whole book is about sex! horror!) There's also a little bit of sexual violence which apparently we must never speak of because it actually happens in the real world (Rape = unmentionable. Death and other kinds of torture are OK)In real terms I think it's a fair criticism of Martin to say that he oversexualises female heroines where he shouldn't on occasion. He doesn't get the balance with Daenerys quite right, tending towards descriptions of her budding sexuality where he wouldn't an equivalent male character. The gay relationships are a bit coy and hush hush - but then we need to bear in mind this was written in 1996 and how much more accepting people are of this in just a short time. I think that publishers wouldn't have heavily marketed a novel with strong gay themes.
So yeah, there's a bit of the "sex sells" mentality from time to time. Martin's word count is high and he's not the most adept prose writer of all time. It just amazes me what a big deal people make of such a small amount of sexual description. Maybe things are very different in the States because most people I know here don't care much about it. And they certainly wouldn't shriek at the name "Stephen King".
It's not so much the sex itself in his books that I dislike, though I will admit that I've skipped ahead once or twice to just get on with it already. Nothing kills the forward momentum of a story more than when everyone stops doing anything interesting to spout expository dialog while shagging penguin style. For me, it's not that it's offensive, more that it's boring and as many people where I come from would say, "Improperly childish." It's more the crude and oftentimes offensive sexual slang that gets me. Call me a prude if you will, but I prefer not to have that sort of thing scattered prolifically through a story I'm otherwise enjoying. I've been known to drop an F-bomb or two when milder words fail to get through to people, but for the most part, I typically dislike using/hearing/reading/etc strong language, especially when it's sexual in nature. I've always associated it with childishness. (yes, even in myself when I curse) Given the choice, I will always choose to be rid of crude vulgarity. It's not something I enjoy, and it really sort of digs at me, like a splinter I can't quite pull out, while I'm reading one of Martin's books.
Curse words .. that's a whole other debate!!! I like them, I have to say, and I'm often prone to forget that other people don't and get offended easily by them. I don't really understand why people are offended by words that are synonymous with sex or body parts, or bothered that these are expressions of anger or annoyance. It's not childish to me it's just linguistics ... even more so in a book like this in which the main characters live and die in a violent, dangerous, sexual world in which people would swear a lot.So I'll call you a prude in the nicest possible way :)
My own preferences with curse words have been constantly changing. About five years ago, when anyone said any "OMG BAD WORDS" I would either giggle, point fingers, scold the person who said the words. A few years later, I didn't get why on earth people gasped or chastised anyone who cursed. Right now, I try to refrain from them as much as possible, but when I'm in extreme emotion (e.g. anger or amusement at a Goodreads troll, or happily fangirling over one of my favorite books) I let the cursing take control, and I don't care how it may come off to people. Basicallly, I use curse words for emphasis when I think they're needed to convey the extremity of my emotions or what I'm thinking.And the way Martin so carelessly throws them around is kind of like he's a little kid who enjoys repeating and yelling the curse word for shock value. It's like he finds the cursing and sex talk tasteful, at least from the way it's portrayed and worked into the book. The kind of person at which people pause, raise their eyebrows, and say, "Okay....sure..." He's basically normalizing this type of crude sex talk and cursing, and as necessary as he or any of his readers feel it IS to normalize this type of thing in his world, it still seems off-putting to some people.
So I'll happily put myself half in, and half out of the "prude" category.
Alex wrote: "Curse words .. that's a whole other debate!!! I like them, I have to say, and I'm often prone to forget that other people don't and get offended easily by them"Personally I don't get so offended anymore by curse words. When you live in Australia and play a sport or two they're flung round very casually. The issue I have is how people use them so often and so casually that they cease to actually mean anything. I tried to read Kraken and the author in my view flung the same repetitive curses into his story on ever paragraph or so. It was like by cursing he was trying to get a 'gritty' atmosphere but to me it came across as tedious. We're is the shock value or emotion in so repetitively using those words. They lose their connotations and basically become other words. Not to mention I've always found when you use a word like that over and over it shows a limited vocabulary to express emotion in my view. The same goes for phrases or anything people sub in for swearing.
Jonathan wrote: "Alex wrote: "Curse words .. that's a whole other debate!!! I like them, I have to say, and I'm often prone to forget that other people don't and get offended easily by them"Personally I don't get..."
I'm currently reading 11/22/63 by Stephen King, which I've heard is one of his tamer books...and even then, the F-word is used 114 times in the entire book. After a while, it's hard not to put the book down, stare at the ceiling, and wonder, "What's the point?"
Nice review.As for the sex it doesn't bother me or detract from the tale. Americans have a lot of sexual hang ups, though, so I can see a percentage of them being turned off.
I don't really understand why you'd say that they lose their connotation or what this means? Clearly they haven't stopped becoming curse words because you're still talking about them as if they're in another category to other words as to when you should/shouldn't say or utter them.Why does it matter to you whether they lose their connotations as curse words? So, they're said a lot and people start accepting them - is that a problem? They're just words aren't they? Why do you need a set of vocabulary especially set aside for you to frown upon its use.
The thing is, I don't think that Martin uses them for "shock effect" I think those words are just part of the vocabulary that his characters use. I don't personally even notice them. If someone asked me "is there a lot of swearing in Game of Thrones?" I'd answer "errrrr" I'd better go and check - probably" because they don't stand out when you don't really care.
Alex wrote: "I don't really understand why you'd say that they lose their connotation or what this means? Clearly they haven't stopped becoming curse words because you're still talking about them as if they're..."I think it was more of me and Eric who didn't like the dirtiness of the curse words. Jonathan didn't necessarily categorize them with words that shouldn't be uttered. If anything he said that he didn't get offended by them all that much.
As for connotations, I guess sometimes it feels so pointless, as of Martin enjoys throwing around curse words so much that they start losing their meanings. No more shock value. No more overall purpose. Etc.
I do agree, though, that ASOIAF doesn't have a terrible amount of cursing. Especially compared to someone likeStephen King. (but he's Stephen King, after all, so I'm not sure....)
Yeah, I'm asking why it matters whether curse words have "shock value" or not? I'm also saying that they clearly do for you and Eric since you're still talking about them as separately categorised words.
Alex wrote: "Yeah, I'm asking why it matters whether curse words have "shock value" or not? I'm also saying that they clearly do for you and Jonathan since you're still talking about them as separately categor..."For me, Martin's use of crude sex language and the like are sometimes on opposite sides of the spectrum. Sometimes it feels TOO shocking. Then later on it just feels pointless and trite. Just how I feel as a reader...nothing that really makes the book (for me) better or worse from a literary standpoint.
Also: this might be due to the fact that I'm relatively new to sex in literature...I've only read two other books before ASOIAF with sex in it, and no book before that normalizes the sex language like A Game of Thrones has. And I've only read the first one, so it's probably unfair of me to judge on the first book alone, when Martin hasn't fully developed everything and made his purposes for everything completely clear.
I'll just leave now, suspend judgement a tad more than I have recently, then maybe come back after I reached A Dance of Dragons so I can fully decide precisely what I think on this sex talk/sex subject.
It's more that I was raised in a strong Christian home where the general rule of thumb is that civilized people do not use language like that and sex scenes are of the devil. Cue the Psycho shower scene music. I see it as childish, pointless, and offensive for the sake of being offensive. It's pretty hard to turn against twenty years of indoctrination, even now that I've been on my own for fifteen years. I even spent an entire year working as a full time preacher between my bachelor's and Master's degrees. Perhaps that sheds some light on my aversion to crude sexual slang and gratuitous sex scenes. But hey, different strokes for different folks. If you enjoy it, keep on enjoying it. Don't let me drag you down with my depressing views on the world.
After the first three books which were excellent, I was disappointed by the fourth. It was still a decent book, but it pales in comparison to the first three. I therefore looked forward with great anticipation to the release of A Dance of Dragons. And I have to be honest. I kept thinking as I read it, when is something going to happen. I was frustrated with Dany and Tyrion's story lines. Jon Snow too. And the whole Martell storyline is completely boring to me. The only one that interested me The Red Viper, and he's dead. Overall, I felt Martin didn't know what he wanted to do with the characters, and they therefore just seemed to just be there. Blah! It wasn't a total wash for me, but there were too many times I had to force myself to keep reading the book. I hope Martin rediscovers what made the first three books amongst the best I've even read ever . . . EVER.
I was pretty bored with the fourth book, but in all of the boring I came to enjoy a few characters that I previously had no love for, like Jamie, who became likeable to me after going through some pretty harsh things and revealing why he killed the king in the first place. The fifth book, though, it felt more like characters were being moved into place for the sixth book than there actually being anything real going on. I mean, I can see how things are being set up for something incredibly epic in more than one plotline, but none of them actually came to fruition. And yeah, I'm definitely not digging the Martells, Once Oberyn went down those guys have nothing interesting to offer. I can only hope that book six, when it comes out 90 years from now, will have more going for it than characters moving themselves into position for later books.
If the book was boring why did you spend time reading almost a thousand pages? There are tons of books out there, ya know.
Because I enjoy the story, setting, characters, and the way that Martin writes. Why else would I read it? You're mistaking my thinking that a book is a boring for my not enjoying it. These are two different things. Just because I thought it was boring in comparison to other books in the series doesn't mean it didn't like it. Even at his worst, Martin is one of the better writers I've ever encountered. His worst book is still amongst the best I've ever read. He pours a lot of time and effort into making sure that everything is worded perfectly that most other writers do not. Besides, there's always the chance that something exciting may happen, and were I to stop, I would miss it. Additionally, I want to know how the story ends, so if I picked up the next book after skipping the one I thought was boring I woudn't know what was going on. I never said I hated book 4, I just said it was boring, and it was, but that doesn't mean that it's not important to the story, and that I can skip it if I want to. Despite their flaws, I quite enjoyed books 4 and 5. Though they were not quite as good as the first three, they were still good books. I rated this one 4 stars did I not?

