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A Dance with Dragons (A Song of Ice and Fire, #5)
by George R.R. Martin
by George R.R. Martin
"Words are wind," says George R. R. Martin (GRRM) no less than 13 times in the latest installment of his
A Song of Ice and Fire
series. In this incredibly windy tome there was very little advancement of the overall story and no resolution to any of the myriad plot threads. Instead, most of the book followed characters travelling, yet in its 1,000+ pages only one reaches his destination while the rest are still travelling.
Words are wind, and GRRM is a windbag. His predilection for overwriting is ridiculous; an editor was desperately needed and sorely missed. Had this book been properly edited, we might have been saved 129 appearances of GRRM's new favorite words: leal, niello, neeps, nightsoil, serjeant, jape, and nuncle. Or spared 151 repetitions of annoying phrases like:
Where do whores go?
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
words are wind
it is known
much and more
little and less
must needs
a man grown
a woman grown and flowered
nipples on a breastplate
Reek, rhymes with...
(he/she/name) was not wrong
GRRM likes to flood the reader with lists. Lists of dishes served at every meal, the exact order people entered and left rooms, a list of over 40 heraldic shields that used to hang in the Shieldhall of Castle Black: (view spoiler) I do not like lists, GRRM. I would not like them here or there. I would not like them anywhere. I do not like lists. I do not like them, GRRM.
GRRM has become so well-known for killing off characters that he made a joke of it when he (view spoiler) All of which was entirely pointless to the story.
GRRM ruined two of my favorite characters. Tyrion has become a whiny obsessive with daddy issues. Danaerys went from a strong-willed, self-righteous, slaughtering conqueror to a helpless, love-torn, indecisive, ineffectual character from a Jane Austen novel. GRRM cannot seem to write a strong female character unless she's a warrior (Brienne, Ygritte, Arya). He's disturbingly focused on tits and cunny (his word).
Robert Jordan's Crossroads of Twilight has often been called "Characters Show Up", which would be an equally appropriate title for GRRM's A Dance with Dragons . I couldn't put it down, not because it was great, but because I couldn't wait to be done with it and move on to a better book. It's sad that's the best thing I can say about it.
Words are wind, and GRRM is a windbag. His predilection for overwriting is ridiculous; an editor was desperately needed and sorely missed. Had this book been properly edited, we might have been saved 129 appearances of GRRM's new favorite words: leal, niello, neeps, nightsoil, serjeant, jape, and nuncle. Or spared 151 repetitions of annoying phrases like:
Where do whores go?
You know nothing, Jon Snow.
words are wind
it is known
much and more
little and less
must needs
a man grown
a woman grown and flowered
nipples on a breastplate
Reek, rhymes with...
(he/she/name) was not wrong
GRRM likes to flood the reader with lists. Lists of dishes served at every meal, the exact order people entered and left rooms, a list of over 40 heraldic shields that used to hang in the Shieldhall of Castle Black: (view spoiler) I do not like lists, GRRM. I would not like them here or there. I would not like them anywhere. I do not like lists. I do not like them, GRRM.
GRRM has become so well-known for killing off characters that he made a joke of it when he (view spoiler) All of which was entirely pointless to the story.
GRRM ruined two of my favorite characters. Tyrion has become a whiny obsessive with daddy issues. Danaerys went from a strong-willed, self-righteous, slaughtering conqueror to a helpless, love-torn, indecisive, ineffectual character from a Jane Austen novel. GRRM cannot seem to write a strong female character unless she's a warrior (Brienne, Ygritte, Arya). He's disturbingly focused on tits and cunny (his word).
Robert Jordan's Crossroads of Twilight has often been called "Characters Show Up", which would be an equally appropriate title for GRRM's A Dance with Dragons . I couldn't put it down, not because it was great, but because I couldn't wait to be done with it and move on to a better book. It's sad that's the best thing I can say about it.
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Comments (showing 1-50 of 69) (69 new)
Glad somebody noticed all the repetition too! It totally annoyed me every time I read lines like: much and more, would that he had, grease dripped down is chin, he was not wrong, wherever whores go, small firm breasts, words are wind, winter is coming, you know nothing Jon Snow, a man grown, stick them with the pointy end, and Hodor! I'm forgetting many others. People have complained about how much Robert Jordan's characters sniff or tug her braid or smooth their skirts, but I think GRRM is far worse with this habit.
YES the shields at Castle Black!! For some reason we just HAD to know about those freakin shields. They really added a lot to that crucial cliffhanger. Yeah.Also! The back stories got so tedious, packing the novel with names, nicknames places, events, relationships, families, shields, sigils, and alliances. Like that useless story about some wildlings climbing the Wall and the Lord commander not stopping them. Apparently Jon's every motivation to do a simple thing requires a tragic history lesson with names and nicknames for the names.
Nail on the head. Not as atrocious as you make it out to be, but the issues are glaring. Nice compilation of his new vocuabulary, though. Niello, seriously.
The way the prologue turned out wasn't exactly a joke, since the exact same thing happened in all of the books. It's what the prologue is for.
I am only a few hundred pages in and am already laughing at your review. It is so right on. Why can't Tyrion man up, already? And I have lost all interest in Jon now that he's bossing people around. I miss Arya and Cersei!!
Spot-on review. I gave it 2 stars because I enjoyed the first 2/3rds of the book, because I assumed SOMETHING WAS GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE LAST 3rd. Nearly threw the damn book across the room when I was finished.
great review. i would add to the critique but honestly my rants about his story just ends up vulgar because i'm so upset i've invested this much time in his books and he's clearly just filing pages with words to sell books. he either (1) just doen'st givce a shit about the story or his readers, or (2) is just the worst author since peter v brett
Wonderful review, very succinct and true. I couldn't finish the bloody thing. So disappointed! Martin has killed one of the great modern sagas.
i'd also like to point out that Across the Narrow Sea is the most boring place on the map. we've been waiting 5 books for Dany to pack up her things, grow her dragons all big and strong, and come to the land where interesting things happen. but what does he do, sends the most interesting characters in the book to that g.d. part of the map. you like Tyrion? well he's going to Pentoshistan. you like Arya? well she's going to Durka Durkastan. you like Samwise? well he's going to Not-interesting-astan. it would be like reading Fight Club but for 4 sequels to the book Tyler Durden is forced to live in Suwalki Poland.
It wouldn't be fair to judge someone on their opinion. What one likes another may dislike, so I respect your expressing your distaste. It is, however, another thing to write a review of a fifth book installment which clearly expresses a lack of awareness for the common threads which have existed from the very first pages of book number one. This writing style has stayed consistent enough to be recognizable throughout all the books thus far, and they have been creatively inventive enough to keep the same style fresh. For example, what you call repetition can be seen with Ned Stark and his conscious thoughts and memories of his deceased sister--"you promised". Another thing to keep in mind is that the book is written in a style that conveys the working thoughts of characters as if they were real thinking people in action. The beauty of this is that most of the action that real people do is in mind, and you can believe people think repetitively and certainly think about "lists" and experience things in a way that paint a mood on the subconsciousness and the consciousness of the writer, character then the reader. There are plenty of literary devices that accomplish this in GRRM's books; the ones you dislike are certainly not new and represent only a small fraction of the devices used.
Your mention of repetitious phrases is telling -- of your absolute ignorance of great writing. The constant question Tyrion asks, where do whores go, is absolutely brilliant characterization. Meek rhymes with Reek and all the other times that is used in the Reek chapters is likewise brilliant characterization. It's a shame this was completely lost on you.
The plot moved forward with every chapter. It is an incredible book, and careful, smart readers will be amply rewarded.
I'm enjoying this book but damn has Martin gotten fond of creating and abusing cliches. In the last book it was "half a groat" and now it's "words are wind," "much and more," "little and less" and "wherever whores go" and a few other gems Martin has crafted and then beaten to death. It's even weirder when these phrases aren't consistent between books (although I appreciate the relief from them) because then you can't just believe they're the "like" and "epic" of Westeros or any specific character's tic.("Reek, it rhymes with geek," while annoying, at least serves a purpose.)
Pam wrote: "Why can't Tyrion man up, already?"I don't want Tyrion to "man up" (a detestable phrase that insults both men and women), I like him as a morose, luckless dwarf who realized his privileges in this book thanks to Penny. What I would like him to do is...not be such an asshole around his "comfort women" (like in ADWD's brothel scene).
That said, "where do whores go" was interesting the first time and MAYBE the second time. But repetitious phrases in a book of this size get super annoying. Which is why I liked Andrew's review.
Also Chad, I've never thought of Martin as a "great writer," as in one "whose prose is par excellence." He's a great plotter and characterizes a few of his favorites very well. Particularly, the weathered warrior with regrets: Ned/JonCon; the asshole whose disability makes them seek redemption and quest for a new identity: Jaime/Theon; and the luckless outsider, after being shunned or shat on, stupidly burning his bridges: Jon/Tyrion. Discussions around Sansa, Dany, Arya, Stannis, Asha, Varys, Littlefinger, Bran and Mel tend to center around "what will they do in the next book" because their identity transformations are formulaic. They work better as plot pieces than as fleshed-out characters. For instance, Bran goes to magic school; Dany fails her poly-sci class; Arya makes A's in her costume class. Ho hum.
Right on, Meggan. Martin's prose is clunky and repetitive. It's his world building and characters that interest me; his willingness to legitimately kill off major, beloved characters (something JRR Tolkien and Robert Jordan couldn't seem to ever do) and his ability to (usually) convincingly make you reexamine characters you thought you knew enough to form ironclad views of are fantastic. Few other writers would have killed Robb and Ned; no one else would have had me wondering if Theon had really killed Bran and Rickon. When Tyrion nearly drowned in the diseased river I had to wonder if he was coming back; with any other writer I would have known he was. I really don't know where Brienne stands now although I doubt she's dead. And I never thought Jaime Kingslayer could become a sympathetic character.
If you don't know where Brienne stands, you didn't read A Dance With Dragons carefully enough. Brienne is right there for all to see. I disagree that Martin's prose is clunky. It's poetic and beautiful, which is what is so appealing to me. It is this beautiful poetry that holds up terrible conflict and raw human stupidity and brutality, and it's awesome.
I must also object to those who say Martin's prose is repetitive. The "Where do whores go?" repetition is absolutely brilliant characterization. The continued "Reek rhymes with [whatever]" is also likewise brilliant characterization. Truly marvelous stuff. And here I'd thought I'd seen the worst of the worst already, then we get a closer look at the Bastard of Bolton. That dude scares the freakin' crap outta me. He is one nasty fucking dude.
"My name is Reek" is important; it's part of Ramsey Bolton's Enhanced Interrogation technique that made Theon what he is. "Where do whores go" is likewise important (I don't think it's anywhere near "brilliant," but maybe my standards are too high). But phrases like "much and more," "words are wind," "half a groat" and "nipples on a breastplate" that appear, spread across both continents, and then disappear all within the space of a book are silly.That's one reason I'm excited to start watching the HBO adaption. I think the parts of Martin's work that I like are those that can translate well to screen.
Maybe our excitement for Season 2 is something we can all agree on. I like it because the HBO show cuts out all the fat and gets right to the heart of the story :)
All that fat, though, is so delicious. I love every chapter of every book. I had to warm up to a lot of Dany's chapters, but a second read through the books uncovered many gems I'd missed in my first read-through.
Furthermore, I think the real trouble with reviewers is that we are all at different stages of maturity, life-events, etc. When I was a kid, Terry Brooks was a writing God. The Sword of Shannara was amazing when I was 14. Today, I can't barely stand to read it. Likewise, if I'd tried to read Martin at 14, I think I would have chucked it as the worst drivel I'd ever tried to read. But at 42, Martin's work is amazing.
I think there is a place for really bad writing. I met a lot of it growing up, but when I was kid and had just discovered the absolute joy of reading, just the act of reading was enough to get me excited. I demand more of my fiction these days.
I don't know how old Andrew is, who started this thread with his scathing review, but if he's young, he might see GRRM in a different light if he re-reads these books ten years from now. Then again, it isn't always age that makes a difference, either.
This is very likely why I avoid reviews of anything. I love stuff that other people hate. The very things Andrew complained about here are the exact things I love about the book. What he sees as repetition, I see as brilliance. Every time Tyrion asked someone, "Do you know where whores go?", I was laughing my ass off, but it was a laughter mixed with pity for Tyrion. *SPOILER ALERT*
"Wherever whores go," was the last thing Tryion's father said to him before Tyrion killed him. It's haunting Tyrion while at the same time boiling up Tyrion's rage at the lie his father and Jamie told him about Tysha being a whore.
I mean, it's just bloody brilliant writing, and the repetition itself is the brilliant part.
I pity Andrew and the others on this thread who missed that and only saw an irritating repetition.
No one thinks condescending fanboys represent an especially high level of "maturity" and I'm confident that no one had trouble understanding that Tyrion is repeating his father's dying words.Now that I've finished Dances I'm afraid Martin is well into Robert Jordan's conundrum of being too successful to edit and too undisciplined to ever get to the point. Very few plot threads advanced significantly during the thousand pages or so of this book and almost everything is left at a cliff-hanger. Almost nothing's been resolved between the end of Feast and the end of Dragons. If Martin and some of his especially mature fans think his "bloody brilliant writing" is worth stretching out for as long as it'll go I wish them joy of it but I'd like for something to happen, too. There were some good scenes in this book but they were lost in a sea of bloody brilliant blather.
Nothing happens? No plot threads advance? What book did you read?Off the top of my head, spoiler plot lines ahead:
Stannis leaves the wall and rallies the clans in the north, takes Deepwood Mote, including Asha Greyjoy, and marches on Winterfell, gets stuck in the first real blizzard of the new winter. (No advancement of plot here? Really?)
The Bastard of Bolton takes Reek, our old friend Theon Greyjoy, south to meet up with his father and the imposter Arya. They take Moat Cailin under false pretenses and murder all the ironborn men who surrendered. They go back to Winterfell and attempt to ride out the storm. All the while, we get an inside view of Theon as reek, and it was awesome.
Brienne re-appears and lures Jaime Lannister away from his men, presumable into a massive trap with the lie that she has found Sansa Stark.
Must I really talk about all that happened to Dany and her dragons? There is a ton of plot movement here.
Tyrion's story is brilliantly pushed forward, plot-wise. He is in hiding to save his life, ends up with Aegon, who turns out to not be dead. Tyrion's story splits with him being captured and taken to Dany, where he almost gets roasted by a dragon.
Aegon comes across the narrow sea and takes the Connington castle and is now headed for Storm's End.
Back at the Wall, Jon lays plans to keep the Night's Watch alive, along with trying to get them to understand that they need to let the Wildling in so they don't end up fighting them as Wights instead, and then his brothers turn against him and apparently kill him there at the end.
We also see The Knight of Onion re-appear, get embroiled in the affairs at White Harbor, then gets sent off to find Rickon Stark. (Really, no plot here, either?)
I could go on, I think, but this is enough. What plot did you really want to be fulfilled? Dragons in King's Landing? Look what they did to Meereen in A Dance With Dragons. There's a lot more to come.
The book I want to read would have been more concise and precise. Shorter doesn't necessarily mean skipping all those little details that some fans like, but it does mean using that device sparingly. For me it's the large number of passages like this that make my eyes glaze over in disinterest:Given time, they could carve out a toehold for themselves up there, throwing ramparts of their own and dropping ropes and ladders for thousands more to clamber over after them. That was how Raymun Redbeard had done it, Raymun who had been King-Beyond-theWall in the days of his grandfather's grandfather. Jack Musgood had been the lord commander in those days. Jolly Jack, he was called before Redbeard came down upon the north; Sleepy Jack forever after. Raymun's host had met a bloody end on the shores of Long Lake, caught between Lord Willam of Winterfell and the Drunken Giant, Harmond Umber. Redbeard had been slain by Artos the Implacable, Lord Willam's youngest brother. The Watch arrived too late to fight the wildlings, but in time to bury them, the task that Artos Stark had assigned them in his wroth as he grieved above the headless corpse of his fallen brother. (ADWD p. 107)
Is this passage important? Why so many words to explain a character's motive? Its difficult for me as a reader to absorb and even care about. I skimmed this paragraph on my first and second read through because my brain can't process all the names, nicknames, family relationships, geographical locations, and a history lesson into what was a dragging chapter already (I was falling asleep reading this one until Jon (view spoiler)). As a reader I'm inclined to think "Get on with the point!" and "Okay, Jon doesn't want to be caught sleeping on the job - got it! Moving on!" IMO Dance is filled with a lot of paragraphs like this that I could have done without. This is NOT beautifully crafted writing; its indulgent.
Right, Meggan. Contrast all the ground covered (and covered well) in the first books compared to the baby steps, filler and sludge in Dragons. Feast ended with Ciresi being arrested; Dragons got ALL THE WAY through her walk of shame but couldn't quite make it to her actual trial. Almost every thread was left on a cliff hanger in a moment of unresolved crisis or mystery. It's disappointingly reminiscent of the latter 5 or so books Robert Jordan wrote in the Wheel of Time series when he couldn't seem to wrap up any loose ends, ever. Even great authors need editors but rich and famous authors don't have to listen to theirs.
If you were expecting lots of Cersei in A Dance With Dragons, you should probably have read the author's note or followed his blog. I didn't expect anything about Cersei in A Dance With Dragons, but the walk of shame was great. I do expect more of Cersei in The Winds of Winter, though.
I did read that and I still think that if Martin had given the bloody brilliant repetition a break now and then he could have managed to pack a little more content into each 1000 page novel.
Meggan wrote: "The book I want to read would have been more concise and precise. Shorter doesn't necessarily mean skipping all those little details that some fans like, but it does mean using that device sparingl..."I think Martin let "the American Tolkien" nonsense go to his head and now he's trying to flesh out his world like Middle Earth. But he's not any kind of a Tolkien and even JRR left tons of the details and back stories in appendixes and other books, whereas Martin who started off so well with a colorful world and a well paced story now just clutters up the story with it.
It doesn't help that for all the condescending fanboy repetition about "brilliant characterization" and immature haters (the majority of Song of Ice and Fire fans, who've now read five books in the series) just not getting it, Martin simply isn't that gifted with language; his prose isn't poetic and it's not valuable on its own. It's a tool to tell a really great story but now he's just gotten fond of hearing himself talk about women grown and flowered and nipples on breastplates. As is typical with superstar novelists, the unfortunate freedom from editing in the latter books really shows. That's my explanation for why such a lengthy book that had so much time to gestate still feels so unfinished and why in ~1000 pages he could only drag out stories and leave nearly all of them at cliff hangers.
I don't believe in God, but THANK GOD Martin isn't anything like Tolkien. Tolkien is one of the worst writers ever to be published. Interesting story ideas, sure, but his writing is just awful.Martin is far more gifted in language than Tolkien. Many cliff-hangers from the previous four books were taken brilliantly forward in A Dance With Dragons. Especially Brienne's story.
Out of morbid curiosity, why do you think so many of the people who liked the first three or four books enough to read the fifth book failed to appreciate the brilliance of Dragons? Did the act of reading Feast (which I liked) make us stupid, immature, careless and everything else you've called us, or is it some remarkable coincidence? Some environmental catastrophe within the last several years that fried the brains of Song of Ice and Fire fans? It's such a shame we're no longer worthy of Martin's brilliant writing.
I have read ADWD yet, and your review, Magnus, has moved it down my list also. BUT a wee part of me is thinking "Loyal GRRM fans, you asked for it."For those who don't know what I'm talking about, GRRM took a very long time to write this book and his fans were NOT PLEASED. A controversy started when GRRM told his fans that he just wanted to take a break from writing, watch football, and enjoy his life. HOW DARE HE! His loyal fans were really pissed off. That started years of back and forth with the fans trying to harass or guilt or somehow push GRRM into getting off his fat ass and write. But he didn't want to write. Finally the pressure got too much and he got back to writing, but he boviously wasn't inspired, was a little angry at not being able to enjoy his success, and had a little of the attitude, "You want a book? Fine, I'll give you a fucking book!" His publishers, eager to finally get the book to market, did a lousy job editing it (a process that, in itself, with re-writes, etc can take a year or more for a book this size), and the result is ADWD.
This exact same thing happened with Thomas Harris after he wrote "The Silence of the Lambs" and he was pressured into writing the ridiculous "Hannibal".
The moral of the story is that you can't force the artistic process. There is no art on demand. Formula books you can force, but not books that require more creativity than a new value for plug-in story parameters.
When it became clear to me that GRRM didn't want to finish his series I just shrugged and said a silent 'thanks' to him for what he already did. My fear was that, if he was pressured into going on, he would hurt or destroy the story. Looks like that might have happened.
"Nipples on a breastplate" is used TWO times in A Dance With Dragons.In any event, we are all of us at different stages of maturity in our lives. We are at different stages of stressful events in our lives, too, which may affect our personal reading tastes in any number of ways. (Please don't assume I'm saying that one must be a certain level of maturity to appreciate the brilliance of Martin's writing. I'm not.)
No right or wrong here, just different opinions, which are as plentiful as assholes and often smell just as bad.
Beverly, how can you judge a book you haven't read? Martin has been writing this entire time, around 100k words a year. That's not as quick as some authors, but he certainly hasn't been sitting around not writing because he wanted to do other things like watch football.
Chad, I got the 'football' thing from GRRM himself, on his blog. I didn't make it up. All of my comments on what he was doing I got from GRRM himself. I didn't make any of that up. I'm not sure whether all of the back and forth comments are still on his site, but they may be. GRRM wrote periodic letters of explanations of all his delays. Check them out.BTW, I'm not judging his book. I'm trying to give a possible explanation for those who thought that his effort was sub-par.
You assume George doesn't want to finish the series. You've put words into his mouth. I don't agree with that. And I'm certainly not in the category you mention of fans who are not pleased with ADWD. It's one of the best books I've ever read and is a worthy addition to the series.
Beverley wrote: "Chad, I got the 'football' thing from GRRM himself, on his blog. I didn't make it up. All of my comments on what he was doing I got from GRRM himself. I didn't make any of that up. I'm not sure whe..."Beverley, your point makes a lot of sense (I myself read all five books since Dragons came out so I'm not familiar with the Ice and Fire community's history). The fact that you've actually done your research is quite impressive (my guess that Dragons' flaws stem from Martin becoming too big to edit is pure speculation). But trying to convince Chad that you're not some barely literate troll on a crusade to tarnish Martin's reputation and murder his pets isn't going to get you anywhere.
As for me, I still like the story Martin's telling although I wish he'd trim the waste with a machete. There are some really good scenes in Dragons. It was worth reading, but I certainly hope it's going somewhere. If it's the beginning of a 5,000 page holding pattern like Robert Jordan got lost in with Wheel of Time then the man won't live to finish the story if makes it to 120 (and I hope he does).
What I would really like for books like these are fan edits. If the shared notation functions of e-readers could be used to unofficially abridge works like Dragons which have solid cores buried in useless verbiage (or "bloody brilliant repetition" depending on how you look at it) that would be awesome. Then you could select the "mod" (as per video games) with the highest fan community rating or one created by a community editor you personally trust to keep the heart and lose the flab.
Chad wrote: No right or wrong here, just different opinions, which are as plentiful as assholes and often smell just as bad. Given your love for cliches and orifices it's little and less wonder that Dragons strikes you as such flawlessly brilliant poetry. I'm glad to see you acknowledge where your opinions come out of, but it's odd to say there's no right or wrong after attacking the intellect and maturity of everyone who disagrees with you (a huge percentage, according to the drop off in stars here and on Amazon, of diehard Ice and Fire fans).
Chad wrote: "Tolkien is one of the worst writers ever to be published."In interviews Martin praises Tolkien in a similar way that you praise Martin himself. In other words, using hyperbole like this to describe a work that Martin respects and takes influence from is kind of dickish. Why not offer some analysis of the prose like I did in my post above instead of just throwing your contrary weight around?
"Martin is far more gifted in language than Tolkien."
Again Martin disagrees with you - in interviews he's smart enough to admit that he's no philologist or Norse sagas scholar. And its hilarious that you use the phrase "gifted in language." If Tolkien can create an entire language, he's at minimum a passable writer in his native language.
Look, some of us want to clarify what Martin is good at and what he's downright BAD at, okay? If you're going to use strong adjectives like "brilliant," "incredible," "amazing" to describe his writing, at least separate opinion from analysis. I like to use both heart and head when thinking about the books I read. If you think Martin is a perfect writer--or, worse, the best writer that ever lived--that's fine. But when people say that ADWD is the best book they've ever read, I think to myself "Hmmm, read more books!"
Many cliff-hangers from the previous four books were taken brilliantly forward in A Dance With Dragons. Especially Brienne's story.
Taken forward, huh? You mean pushed back to the next book when it could have just been solved in the 1100 page novel that we read? Yeah, brilliant.
Meggan wrote: "Why not offer some analysis of the prose like I did in my post above instead of just throwing your contrary weight around?"It's a hipster thing.
Look, some of us want to clarify what Martin is good at and what he's downright BAD at, okay?
You're either with A Dance With Dragons or you're with the terrorists. Pick a side, we're at war.
But when people say that ADWD is the best book they've ever read, I think to myself "Hmmm, read more books!"
My reaction was "That would be funny if it weren't so sad!"
First off, I didn't say ADWD is the best book I've ever read. It's close, but there are a few others I like more. Not many, though.The so-called cliff-hangers in ADWD are no different than the ones in all four previous SOIAF novels. Nothing has changed in that regard. I certainly don't feel Martin is writing just to produce a book to fend off readers. If anything, he has worsened his problem in that regard with ADWD. Fans will want The Winds Of Winter even more, now.
So you're both putting words in my mouth that I never said, same as you've done for Martin himself. Martin likes football. He never said he wasn't interested in writing the SOIAF novels. Not once has he ever said that. Your research is more than just providing the facts based on Martin's blog, it's conjecture at best and outright lie at worst.
Martin has never said, "I want to take a break from writing." Unless, of course, you can produce that exact quote from his blog or other reputable location.
This kind of conjecture and hearsay is exactly why we have things like the bible, with waring factions on every side putting words in minds that don't appear in so-called sacred texts or non-sacred texts.
It is why we see such splendid wars and machinations in Martin's books, why the late arrival or non-arrival of a raven can cause a war.
Above all things, I like Martin's honesty. An honest writer who respects the intelligence of his readers is hard to find. Martin is both honest to and respectful of his readers.
Chad wrote: "I don't believe in God, but THANK GOD Martin isn't anything like Tolkien. Tolkien is one of the worst writers ever to be published. Interesting story ideas, sure, but his writing is just awful." "This kind of conjecture and hearsay is exactly why we have things like the bible, with waring factions on every side putting words in minds that don't appear in so-called sacred texts or non-sacred texts."Ok, clearly you've got a lot of issues that have nothing to do with the topic that you're projecting onto us. No one cares about your religious views. Honestly, no one. Your weird dogmatic attitudes and scorn for heretics in the church of Martin are annoying, but let's keep IRL religious views out of this? We don't want to hear about your favorite operating system either, since that's almost inevitably up next.
No one said that Martin wasn't interested in writing Ice and Fire books. No one. You made that up as "conjecture at best and outright lie at worst." Beverley suggested that the pressure from fans and industry (it is a business) forced the timeline and led to Martin being off his game. This is something that happens all the time, which someone with even a slightly greater grasp of literature would understand. Conan Doyle had to bring Sherlock Holmes implausibly back from the dead due to reader and publisher demand.
Fans will want The Winds Of Winter even more, now.
Given the fan reaction to Dance with Dragons, that seems like a fantastically unlikely scenario.
But Beverly DID say Martin wasn't interested in writing, that he wanted to take a break from it.Beverly wrote, and I quote, word for word:
"...A controversy started when GRRM told his fans that he just wanted to take a break from writing, watch football, and enjoy his life. HOW DARE HE! His loyal fans were really pissed off. That started years of back and forth with the fans trying to harass or guilt or somehow push GRRM into getting off his fat ass and write. But he didn't want to write. Finally the pressure got too much and he got back to writing, but he obviously wasn't inspired, was a little angry at not being able to enjoy his success, and had a little of the attitude, "You want a book? Fine, I'll give you a fucking book!" His publishers, eager to finally get the book to market, did a lousy job editing it (a process that, in itself, with re-writes, etc can take a year or more for a book this size), and the result is ADWD." End Quote.
Martin never said that. That was my point. I didn't make that up, as you suggest.
Further, these so-called loyal fans are not in the majority. Most of the fans are level-headed people who told him to just take his time, they would wait for it. And he did take his time, 12 years, to deliver it. That doesn't sound like a writer who just wants to..."You want a book? Fine, I'll give you a fucking book!" as Beverly writes.
Just a difference of opinions, and anyway, it's all evidence of my previous assertion.
Come on, ADWD is pretty bad. A good writer doesn't just fill pages with words. There's supposed to be a point. I'm reading it because I've already invested so much time in the series. But it's pretty clear that GRRM needs somebody to reign him him. And what's worse is that I have the feeling that he's just milking it to make more books and more money (I can't blame him for that, but the story suffers for it). I'll stick it out through this book, but I'll just ask my wife what happens in the following books. There are many better things to read if GRRM is going to disrespect us by producing such diluted writing.
Right on, Anthony. I should have learned from The Wheel of Time never to start a massive series until it's all been written.
Even in interviews he answers with too many words. Sometimes a simple question about his favorite authors can take up the entire Q&A because he goes into tedious detail about his life ("My father was a longshoreman...."). See his recent Audible interview for an example.I just heard about his list of non-ASOIAF related projects he's working on in 2012. I dont think he'll get around to TWOW until 2013.
Meggan wrote: I dont think he'll get around to TWOW until 2013. Fine by me. I'm curious about what happened in the north around Winterfell and the the Wall, but ADWD quenched the enthusiasm I had for the series. Stannis, Snow and the Boltons are the only interesting characters left, which I say regretfully having once loved Tyrion and Daeny with all my heart.
Great review, as a man grown, I enjoyed it much and more, it is known; that I enjoy stories of nipples on breastplates.