Listopia


Books I Have No Intention of Reading
Popular books that everyone always tells us we should read, or just books that are extremely popular and we will never read, ever.
Tags: going, it, never, not, popular, read, and titles

1
Godless: The Church of Liberalism
Godless: The Church of Liberalism
by Ann Coulter 668 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
2
Twilight
Twilight
by Stephenie Meyer 535 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
3
How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must): The World According to Ann Coulter
How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must): The Wor...
by Ann Coulter 529 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
4
If Democrats had Any Brains, They'd be Republicans
If Democrats had Any Brains, They'd be Republicans
by Ann Coulter 503 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
5
The Secret
The Secret
by Rhonda Byrne 476 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
6
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
Slander: Liberal Lies About the American Right
by Ann Coulter 469 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
7
The Way Things Ought to Be
The Way Things Ought to Be
by Rush Limbaugh 440 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
8
Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to the War on Terrorism
Treason: Liberal Treachery from the Cold War to...
by Ann Coulter 414 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
9
New Moon
New Moon
by Stephenie Meyer 366 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
10
Breaking Dawn
Breaking Dawn
by Stephenie Meyer 363 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
11
Eclipse
Eclipse
by Stephenie Meyer 340 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
12
The Host
The Host
by Stephenie Meyer 331 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
13
Midnight Sun
Midnight Sun
by Stephenie Meyer 322 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
15
Left Behind
Left Behind
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 296 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
16
Guilty: Liberal "Victims" and Their Assault on America
Guilty: Liberal "Victims" and Their A...
by Ann Coulter 306 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
17
The Da Vinci Code
The Da Vinci Code
by Dan Brown 275 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
18
High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against Bill Clinton
High Crimes and Misdemeanors: The Case Against ...
by Ann Coulter 264 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
20
Miles to Go
Miles to Go
by Miley Cyrus 251 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
22
Culture Warrior
Culture Warrior
by Bill O'Reilly 239 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
25
Marley & Me: Love and Life with the World's Worst Dog
Marley & Me: Love and Life with the World's...
by John Grogan 192 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
26
Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health
by L. Ron Hubbard 209 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
27
My Life
My Life
by Bill Clinton 193 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
28
Confessions of a Shopaholic
Confessions of a Shopaholic
by Sophie Kinsella 181 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
31
A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose
A New Earth: Awakening to Your Life's Purpose
by Eckhart Tolle 170 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
32
A Million Little Pieces
A Million Little Pieces
by James Frey 171 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
34
The Purpose Driven Life: What on Earth am I Here for?
The Purpose Driven Life: What on Earth am I Her...
by Rick Warren 155 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
35
Gossip Girl
Gossip Girl
by Cecily von Ziegesar 149 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
36
Mein Kampf
Mein Kampf
by Adolf Hitler 146 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
37
Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus: Improving Communication
Men Are from Mars, Women Are from Venus: Improv...
by John Gray 145 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
41
The Truth
The Truth
by Al Franken 133 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
42
The Shack
The Shack
by William P. Young 127 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
45
The Notebook
The Notebook
by Nicholas Sparks 127 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
46
Living History
Living History
by Hillary Rodham Clinton 133 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
49
Stupid White Men
Stupid White Men
by Michael Francis Moore 122 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
51
Dude, Where's My Country?
Dude, Where's My Country?
by Michael Francis Moore 120 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
52
Tribulation Force
Tribulation Force
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 115 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
53
Nicolae: The Rise of Antichrist
Nicolae: The Rise of Antichrist
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 114 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
54
An Inconvenient Truth: The Planetary Emergency of Global Warming and What We Can Do About It
An Inconvenient Truth: The Planetary Emergency ...
by Al Gore 110 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
55
Brisingr
Brisingr
by Christopher Paolini 101 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
56
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone
by J.K. Rowling 97 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
57
Armageddon
Armageddon
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 115 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
58
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows
by J.K. Rowling, Mary GrandPré (Illustrator) 90 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
60
Audition: A Memoir
Audition: A Memoir
by Barbara Walters 101 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
61
Those Who Trespass: A Novel of Television and Murder
Those Who Trespass: A Novel of Television and M...
by Bill O'Reilly 114 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
62
Mike's Election Guide
Mike's Election Guide
by Michael Francis Moore 99 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
63
Eragon
Eragon
by Christopher Paolini 89 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
64
Soul Harvest
Soul Harvest
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 100 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
65
Desecration
Desecration
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 99 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
66
Assassins
Assassins
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 101 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
68
Will They Ever Trust Us Again?
Will They Ever Trust Us Again?
by Michael Francis Moore 94 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
69
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
Harry Potter and the Prisoner of Azkaban
by J.K. Rowling 80 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
70
Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right
Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair ...
by Al Franken 92 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
71
The Indwelling
The Indwelling
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 98 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
72
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince
by J.K. Rowling, Mary GrandPré (Illustrator) 81 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
74
The Remnant
The Remnant
by Tim LaHaye, Jerry B. Jenkins 99 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
75
The Golden Compass
The Golden Compass
by Philip Pullman 72 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
76
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire
by J.K. Rowling 70 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
77
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix
by J.K. Rowling 69 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
78
The Bridges of Madison County
The Bridges of Madison County
by Robert James Waller 77 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
79
Eldest
Eldest
by Christopher Paolini 69 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
80
Bridget Jones's Diary
Bridget Jones's Diary
by Helen Fielding 67 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
81
The Kite Runner
The Kite Runner
by Khaled Hosseini 57 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
82
The Fountainhead
The Fountainhead
by Ayn Rand 63 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
84
Your Best Life Now: 7 Steps to Living at Your Full Potential
Your Best Life Now: 7 Steps to Living at Your F...
by Joel Osteen 69 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
85
Atlas Shrugged
Atlas Shrugged
by Ayn Rand 55 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
86
Moby Dick
Moby Dick
by Herman Melville 51 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
87
American Psycho
American Psycho
by Bret Easton Ellis 51 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
88
The Tales of Beedle the Bard
The Tales of Beedle the Bard
by J.K. Rowling 50 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
89
Confessions of an Heiress: A Tongue-in-Chic Peek Behind the Pose
Confessions of an Heiress: A Tongue-in-Chic Pee...
by Paris Hilton 53 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
90
Change We Can Believe In: Barack Obama's Plan to Renew America's Promise
Change We Can Believe In: Barack Obama's Plan t...
by Barack Obama 49 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
91
Angels & Demons
Angels & Demons
by Dan Brown 49 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
92
The Horse Whisperer
The Horse Whisperer
by Nicholas Evans 53 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
93
Downsize This
Downsize This
by Michael Francis Moore 50 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
94
Dreams from My Father
Dreams from My Father
by Barack Obama 44 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
95
The Lovely Bones
The Lovely Bones
by Alice Sebold 38 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
96
Running with Scissors: A Memoir
Running with Scissors: A Memoir
by Augusten Burroughs 38 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
97
The Secret Life of Bees
The Secret Life of Bees
by Sue Monk Kidd 35 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
98
Dune
Dune
by Frank Herbert 41 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
99
Atonement
Atonement
by Ian McEwan 35 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
100
The Other Queen
The Other Queen
by Philippa Gregory 37 people voted »
didn't like itit was okliked itreally liked itit was amazing
List started by: Jennifer (votes)
Lists are re-scored approximately every 500 seconds



Louise
Louise
156 books
2 friends
Mary
Mary
83 books
9 friends
Daphne
Daphne
280 books
29 friends
Christaa
Christaa
66 books
1 friend
Pearl
Pearl
62 books
2 friends
Ally
Ally
139 books
10 friends
Lois
Lois
98 books
0 friends

More voters…


comments (showing 1-50 of 85) (85 new)


message 1: by Ikonopeiston (new)

1760882 I am so tired of seeing those idiotic Meyer books on the first page of the Kindle book list. Wake up, people! This stuff is drek!


message 2: by DeeLoren (new)

2004309 It is. Thank you.


message 3: by Bettie (new)

1108123 *bows head* So many of these titles are in the category 'too late' for me to add to the list - please feel suitably sorry for me.


message 4: by Susanna (new)

1109068 Yeah, I took your rating of "American Psycho" seriously!


message 5: by Falyn (new)

Nophoto-f-25x33 They arent' good. they can't be.


message 6: by arianna (new)

1461115 Ikonopeiston wrote: "I am so tired of seeing those idiotic Meyer books on the first page of the Kindle book list. Wake up, people! This stuff is drek!"

I concur


message 7: by Emily (new)

1100684 ann coulter. ew. ew. ew.

And if anyone is even thinking about reading the notebook, don't. It's the most poorly written book I've ever attempted to read. I only got about 15 pages in before I wanted to cut it up.


message 8: by Allison (new)

2136330 Unfortunately, I've already subjected myself to a few of these. *hangs head in shame*


message 9: by Susanna (new)

1109068 Well, I've read a few of them and liked them - tea, poison, etc. But we all have books we don't mean to read if we can help it!


message 10: by arianna (new)

1461115 Emily wrote: "ann coulter. ew. ew. ew.

And if anyone is even thinking about reading the notebook, don't. It's the most poorly written book I've ever attempted to read. I only got about 15 pages in before I wan..."


wow, i'll take your word for it...


message 11: by arianna (new)

1461115 Allison wrote: "Unfortunately, I've already subjected myself to a few of these. *hangs head in shame*"

Vote for 'em anyway so hopefully no one else will make the same mistake, lol


message 12: by Jen (new)

950284 Bettie (Goodreads Reader!) wrote: "*bows head* So many of these titles are in the category 'too late' for me to add to the list - please feel suitably sorry for me."

Amen. Let's pity party together.


message 13: by Susanna (new)

1109068 What's the line from The Music Man - "the sadder but wiser girl"?


message 14: by Claire (last edited Apr 08, 2009 04:43PM) (new)

2199365 Some of these books I can really understand as being voted worst ever, like the Twilight Series (I had the sad misfortune of reading it before I knew its evil), and Godless, the Church of Liberalism (which is just kind of bias). But others are terrific books, and I really don't see how they were voted worst ever, like the Harry Potter Series and the Kite Runner. But I guess this is all based on opinion, so I'll let the other readers have theirs.


message 15: by arianna (new)

1461115 Claire wrote: "Some of these books I can really understand as being voted worst ever, like the Twilight Series (I had the sad misfortune of reading it before I knew its evil), and Godless, the Church of Liberalis..."

well these aren't the worst books ever... just ones we don't want to read. some of them we're also tired of hearing about and would probably just have ignored except they became pop culture phenomenons.



message 16: by Diesesiete (new)

2209257 uhm, i'm new here, and this list just had me wondering - no offense, hopefully - wouldn't it be better to just keep the friendly recommendations and, for the lack of a better word, deprecations to ourselves and those who personally ask for it.....?
i mean, i won't lie that i'm surprised people disapprove of the inheritance series. and i know there are religion-related disputes regarding the da vinci code. i also know that the twilight series stinks as a piece of written literature. and, his dark materials series in a sense a written form of protest against the church (unbelievable guts, pullman has).
also, from what i've heard, the the secret really is something to read; and, heck, the purpose driven life is a must read. oh, and the the fountainhead - it's used as a textbook and reference in some schools (don't ask which; i don't have an exact name, sorry).
my bookshelf will show, just to say, which ones of these aforementioned books i have actually read, and like for that matter. this comment is not a "who-put-this-don't-read-book-list-here-where-the-book-i-like-is-an-entry" form of protest. i repeat - not. i put up this post because i wish to stand up for the multitudes who know how to take in - quoting from most negative criticism i read and hear; ridiculous, idiotic, cheesy, badly-written excuse of a book.
it's not that because we don't like a book, we have the right to downgrade it - because in our personal opinion it is "the worst book ever" - which, it isn't. we just don't like it. of course, there are exceptions, but i'm not here to discuss that.
and, mind, huh, there may be at least 8 books in this list that i like, but there are more than twice as much as that in there that i do not like, do not intend to read, (guiltily) despise, but do not intent to deprecate either. and to say that i was itching to vote for my said don't-like's is quite an understatement (but i didn't vote, haha).
subjective my opinion may be to most, but that's why it's called opinion. because it's relative and sujective - but, still, in some ridiculous way, objective. it lets you see the other side of the story.
sorry for the ridiculous length, and to those people i may have offended..


message 17: by Susanna (new)

1109068 You could also consider this list a friendly "word to the wise."


message 18: by arianna (last edited Apr 13, 2009 06:27AM) (new)

1461115 Diesesiete wrote: "uhm, i'm new here, and this list just had me wondering - no offense, hopefully - wouldn't it be better to just keep the friendly recommendations and, for the lack of a better word, deprecations to ..."

you lost me... i'm not sure where your argument lie. Are you saying lists like this shouldn't exist?

this isn't really a worst books ever list you know that right? this is just a "Popular books that everyone always tells me I should read, or just books that are extremely popular and I will never read list" (as stated above). It's more or less a list for those people who are sick of hearing about it, you know?



message 19: by Clint (new)

1249805 Diesesiete wrote: "uhm, i'm new here, and this list just had me wondering - no offense, hopefully - wouldn't it be better to just keep the friendly recommendations and, for the lack of a better word, deprecations to ..."

uhm...the list is titled "Books I have no intention of reading" not "Books that suck and should be burned" It's an expression of personal opinion, not a sweeping, all encompassing decree about the value of each book. It's an opinion which, as I understand, is the purpose of a social networking site built around books.


message 20: by Amanda (new)

1856127 THANK YOU!!!




message 21: by Amanda (new)

1856127 Allison wrote: "Unfortunately, I've already subjected myself to a few of these. *hangs head in shame*"

Don't feel bad. So have I. *hangs head too*


message 22: by arianna (new)

1461115 Clint wrote: "Diesesiete wrote: "uhm, i'm new here, and this list just had me wondering - no offense, hopefully - wouldn't it be better to just keep the friendly recommendations and, for the lack of a better wor..."

you for the win


message 23: by Kelly (new)

1059653 Diesesiete,

Thank you for your opinion and your comments. I appreciate that you're open-minded and see reading in general as just good. And I agree. But although folks have pointed out that this is just a "ick, not interested" list, I actually would be okay with a list of "this is a terrible book no one should read" because some of the books on this list just espouse hatred.

I wouldn't put Twilight on that particular list even though I hated it--I don't think it's an evil book, I just think it's bad--or the Secret (just enough already) but Ann Coulter's books are so full of venom and hatred that I just don't understand how anyone can read them. (There are other conservative writers who I respect, who are intelligent and respect others. It has nothing to do with my disagreeing with her politics.) Part of freedom of speech and freedom of the press is freedom of protest. I defend her write to publish her rhetoric but I also defend my right to tell everyone I can that she's a hateful, mean person and no one should read her books. It's because I want literature to be friendly and educational that I believe that.


message 24: by Cassie (new)

2287959 Stubbled through Twilight wondering what an earth all the fuss was about. Definitely won't be subjecting myself to that level of boredom again.


message 25: by Irene (new)

2185963 I'm pretty open about books- so even though my tastes are fairly narrow, there aren't many books that are on my "just say no" list. I read one Harry Potter. It was okay but I don't see what all the fuss is about. Not going to read anymore of those...
Harry Potter and The Hobbit...


message 26: by Vidgameguy777 (new)

1303937 Some of these books are really good and even best sellers. I've read some of them and enjoyed them. This list is insulting. Except the Anne Coulter and Stephanie Meyer books. Those really do suck.


message 27: by Bettie (new)

1108123 Vidgameguy777 wrote: "Some of these books are really good and even best sellers. I've read some of them and enjoyed them. This list is insulting. Except the Anne Coulter and Stephanie Meyer books. Those really do suck."

This list has nothing to do with best seller lists or literary plaudits. It's about personal mind blocks or genre dislike or even *please sit down for this last bit* viewing the author as a bad writer. It would be fair to say that a lot of these books have been over promoted and not only by the publishing houses either, or maybe the author has been spamming groups. I believe all of these rational arguments were stated previously, so give yourself time to wander through all the comments and your outrage will be quelled.


message 28: by Irene (new)

2185963 I love the "lists" section of goodreads. I love to see a snapshot of other people's opinion. It's a freedom of speech thing. I can create a list titled "worst books ever" and fill it with what I think are truly the worst books I've ever come into contact with. Others don't have to agree. My own mother likes James Joyce. But his books would be on my worst books ever list.
As for Stephenie Meyer, I didn't like her stuff in the beginning either. I'm in the middle of the third one now and I still roll my eyes occasionally, but mmmm I'm ashamed to say- they grew on me. Kind of like a fungus. I like mushrooms too.
Now why shouldn't I be able to say which books I think sucked?


message 29: by arianna (new)

1461115 Irene wrote: "I love the "lists" section of goodreads. I love to see a snapshot of other people's opinion. It's a freedom of speech thing. I can create a list titled "worst books ever" and fill it with what I th..."

@Irene and Bettie,

I love you both you are amazing, thank you for saying this.



message 30: by Vidgameguy777 (new)

1303937 My worst books ever list would definitely include books that other people like. I hated Ender's game. Lot's of people love it. Ther's allways someone who dislikes even the best of books.


message 31: by ♥BookGeek♥ (new)

2254001 I just hate chick lit with a passion. So anything chick lit, (sorry Clique and Gossip Girl fans) I just won't read. Except Meg cabot. She's bearable.


message 32: by Kelly (last edited May 13, 2009 02:42AM) (new)

1059653 I didn't like Ender's Game, either. Didn't hate it, just didn't like it. Liked the later books about Ender, won't even touch the second series that takes place at the same time as Ender's Game from another boy's point of view.

I'm with you BookGeek. Meg Cabot's formulaic supernatural series are silly but mildly entertaining. I read them all. But I think I would vomit if I read Clique and Gossip Girl type stuff.


message 33: by ♥BookGeek♥ (new)

2254001 Yay!!!!! Someone's with me, awesome! And part of the reason that I will read Meg Cabot is that she is from my hometown. Well, that's not the reason why I read her but...
I didn't read Ender's Game but some people are reading it for English and they proclaimed it the worst book on earth. Apparently, some people agree.


message 34: by ♥BookGeek♥ (new)

2254001 I forgot, why would anyone want to read the book by Hitler? I'm Jewish and I am publicly offended by anyone who wants to read that book. He was a bastard. All I'm saying.


message 35: by arianna (new)

1461115 BookGeek wrote: "I forgot, why would anyone want to read the book by Hitler? I'm Jewish and I am publicly offended by anyone who wants to read that book. He was a bastard. All I'm saying."

They probably read it to find out more about the man and learn how never to let people like him get into power again.


message 36: by Susanna (new)

1109068 Assigned reading in a graduate course I took on Nazi Germany.


message 37: by Bettie (new)

1108123 Susanna wrote: "Assigned reading in a graduate course I took on Nazi Germany."

Yes Susanna - Intelligent readers need to know every angle of these subjects as blinkered thinking has never helped any cause. Awarding stars though, that's quite a different matter.




message 38: by