Leslie's comments (member since Jan 03, 2009)

Leslie's comments from the Joseph Campbell discussion group group.

Hi Linda,
That was nice of you to be thinking about me! Thank you. I'm still seeing my therapist, I've had some setbacks and some progress. I still am going to get to the point of seeing him less and less, then not at all, and I know the conversation we had on here will help me, it's part of me now.

It's such a long process. Also, I finished the first draft of my memoir! I'm very excited about that.

It's so funny that you wrote, I keep thinking I should go on here and say hi to every one.

Hi Linda and Allen and Daveh and Sherrie and Doug and everyone else--how are you guys all doing?

I'm enjoying it, not putting up with it!

Daveh, how are you doing?

I'm sorry Daveh, that is so sad. I'll be thinking about you and your family. I wish I knew something to say something that would make this easier to go through, just know I'm thinking about you.
Leslie

Wow, interesting! I love finding patterns, it has to mean something, right?

That's interesting. I do believe it, too, that everything is interconnected. The dance--wonder what steps we'll learn while we're here--and then afterwards. It makes life exciting and amazing and mysterious. As much as I'd like to solve every mystery there is, I don't want to--even if it was possible. Mystery is essential.
What's QP? I know a little about fractals, really just the art they make from them. I'd love to get you started--and hear more. :)

I will, that sounds good--maybe I'll try it tonight--thank you, Sherrie
It's interesting how powerful brain chemistry is, I don't think of it as chemicals, I think of it as feelings, but the chemicals somehow create the feelings--or the chemicals are created by the feelings, have they discovered which? It's all so amazing.

I like that so much--it's only fear and I know how to deal with that one! I'm gonna try that next time I get scared. I also like what you said about having an emotion or an an emotion having me. My physical reaction is so intense, that it does feel like something has me--around the neck! Like it's possessing me. I'm working to get better control of all that, but I usually react in ways that are extreme--physically, emotionally. I do want to have emotions, not the other way around.
Fear is energy, and people say anger is energy too. Those are kinds of energies that protect us, I know that, but it seems like they do a lot of negative things to us, too. I guess it's not the energy, it's what we do with it.
Do you have spring break this week? Emily does. It's nice, because we get more time together.
Have a great day tomorrow!
Leslie

I like what you said about getting used to that feeling and knowing that we're using our strength. Joseph made the point that excitement and anxiety have a lot of the same symptoms, physically, and sometimes it's hard to tell the difference. I get bogged down in fear so easily, although the important thing to remember is that it's less easily than before! That's what counts.
Everytime we do something that requires courage, we are establishing a new boundary, you're right! So each time, it's like making our personal worlds bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger! Wow--that's exciting! I never thought of it that way. My world is a lot bigger than it used to be already and I can keep making it bigger. That gives me a feeling of empowerment--I can make it bigger, I don't have to wait for anyone else to do it for me!
I love that--thank you!
Leslie

Did my message I wrote yesterday come through? It isn't here.

It's paradoxical how when I do something brave, I feel scared, because I'm doing something I'm scared to do. So of course I feel scared. When do people "feel" brave? After it's all over and we think about it? Maybe that's when.
I keep reminding myself that courage has nothing at all to do with not feeling fear, it has everything to do with doing the thing I fear.
I want to break through all kinds of boundaries that I've been confined in most of my life. Sometimes I feel like I want to break the sound barrier and cause this giant boom that can be heard all over the world!! I guess that's what writing my book is about. That's how I would do that, not with a fighter jet.
Thank you so much for all the encouragement,
Leslie

Thanks Sherrie!
You're right, however we feel our feelings--with great intensity, mildly, not at all because of numbness--is how we feel all the feelings, the ones that feel wonderful and the ones that hurt so much.
Doug is very wise. I feel lucky to know him in person as well as on here.
I don't feel very brave most of the time, but I keep trying to remind myself that I've done a lot of brave things and will continue.
Have a great weekend!!
Leslie

I hope I didn't get everybody burned out on this thread! :)

Hello,
You guys are bringing up so many good points. I am aware of the dangers of being the victim, having that be my identity, and I do not want that. My life is so much more than what they did to me. Having the time to process what happened and feel my feelings--for the first time in my life--has been so important to me and to healing and becoming who I'm trying to become, but I know it's dangerous to stop in that place and I have no desire to. It's not what I want to do with my life, that's for sure!
I have to accept that my relationship with Joseph will end one day, and that it will lessen gradually before then. I just have to accept that. And also accept how sad I am about that. One thing doesn't negate the other. Most things that make people so sad aren't so much rational decisions, and I think makes it harder too. Like someone dies, a lover leaves, your best friend in high school moves away. These things happen and we react to them with intense sadness and grief and mourn the loss and then live our lives. This is a matter of deciding, and in that it feels different. It's been feeling like if Joseph decides this, maybe I can get him to change his mind. I think that's another obstacle to acceptance, it's a conscious decision that is being made, a conclusion that is being reached. But, that decision is valid, I certainly wouldn't want it to end with some big emotional crisis being the reason it ended. That might be the result, but if it was the reason it ended it would be very traumatic.
I like the rubber band thing--I'm gonna have to get out my sling shot!
I'm going to say it out loud--my typing it on here, if that's loud, I don't know--for the first time, ever.

I can survive and thrive without Joseph in my life.

Ok, there, I said it!! I feel all kinds of poundings and rushing around inside me and now I'm gonna cry! UGH!and GOOD!

It doesnt' mean I won't miss him and it doesnt' mean I won't mourn the loss of his wonderful, comforting, parenting presence in my life. I've never said that before. Not in my journal, not in my mind, not out loud, not to him, myself, or anybody.

Thank you guys--thank you very much.

It is an amazing thread, isn't it? I feel happy that so many people are helping me with this huge transition. It's really helping--a lot!

Hey Doug--
No going back in your hobbit hole--not allowed. I'm glad you chimed in on here, I was hoping you would, and I was also thinking, I want to write Doug an e mail and get his very valuable input.

You bring up a whole bunch of good points--as usual. And since we are friends in person, you know me really good.
We've talked about the thing about me "knowing" and that is when it will happen. I told Joseph that internal knowing will be drowned out by the pain I feel in losing him. I think it will, I don't think I have much chance of hearing that voice when the other one is wailing so loudly.

We've also talked a few times about--I think he calls is a cost/benefit analysis. I get the benefit of seeing him, I still benefit from it, but it also costs me, because of the dependency. He said that he thinks we're fast approaching the time when the cost of the dependency will be greater than the benefits I am receiving by seeing him and that will mean it's time for me not to see him any more. Joseph also said that if therapy is done right, then the patient gets less out of each session than they did the one before. I don't know if it's quantifiable from one session to the next, but comparing the benefit of a session back 5 years ago to one today, I can see that there is a difference, that I need less, I'm getting less by being there.

I know that termination is the goal of therapy. I've always known that--way back in that back closet of my brain that I don't like to look in, but it seems like to reach the goal of suceeding in therapy enough to be ready to terminate, you first have to do the opposite, form an incredible intimacy. Then it's, ok, we're done, see ya kid. I'm exageratting, because we are going to lessen the frequency of the visits gradually. It isn't going to be a sudden thing.

What different needs? Like you already knew I would ask. I can guess at some of them. Acceptance, intimacy, kindness, emotional support, great conversations all about ME :) -- amazing insights, questions (like yours) that are better than other people's answers. Those are a few. Probably a lot more.

Do I want to grow-up, be my own person, become independent--yes, a lot of me does. But the part that doesn't is pretty vocal. I admit it, a part of me loves this comfort zone. Being with Joseph is a comfort zone, but it was once a survival zone. I don't really think I would be alive if it wasn't for him. Joseph never agrees with me when I say that, he says I saved myself and that he helped me, but that others could have helped me, just as well as he could. That's not how it feels. If I didn't die literally, I know my soul would be dead by now. I'm sure of that, plus suicide was more and more often on my mind back then. And the comfort zone still feels like the survival zone--can I survive without those visits with him? Brain says yes, heart says no.

You mention the Warrior/Lover--I don't understand where that comes in, I feel like an Orphan/Pilgrim.
And you mentioned Emily. So did Allen. Are you guys saying that if I hold on to Joseph so tightly I won't be able to let go of her? Or something else? I want to know.

Also about my writing. How will that be affected? For a long time it felt like Joseph was my muse, because I wrote poetry and prose about what we were working on. Back before I met him, I used to publish cute articles about being a mom, the kind that make people laugh, sometimes cry, always sort of sigh and say, Ah...
Nothing wrong with that, but I wasn't capapble of more.

It sounds like you think Joseph isn't being tough enough with me. Maybe he isn't. His gentleness is one of the things I love best about him. And yet I know he's very capable of being tough--on me, on other patients that have caused a few disturbances over the years when I just happened to be there.

No hiding in hobbit holes!! I want to hear your response--it's very important to me. One thing I've been really sad, too, about, and I think it's even compounding my sadness about the whole thing on see Joseph less, is that once you sell your store, I won't be able to drop in and hang out with you like I've been doing sometimes. It's like I know you're there when the store is open and that's another special comfort zone. I know we can still e mail and still see each other at the writer's group, but just knowing that my wise, smart, funny, caring friend is there and I can drop in and say hi has been really special to me. I'm sad you're not going to be there anymore. I'm going to miss those visits with you, Doug.
Love,
Leslie

Hi Linda and Sherrie,
Thank you for taking the time to help me with this, I really appreciate that. It feels good to hear from other people who miss their therapists and have experienced how hard it is to lose that relationship--although it is true that I won't be losing it completely, because I'll always have what I learned inside me and the changes I've made--I know I won't lose those either. And of course, hearing Joseph's voice in my head. I've internalized his voice on a lot of things, after all these years. I know that it is a new phase of my journey, growth--I do believe that. I like the phrase "kicking and screaming"--for one it's what I've been doing about this, and also, isn't that what babies do as soon as they are born? It's very apt.
It's so hard to imagine life without him in it every week, or at least regularly, but that was the whole point of doing this--for me to be able to have a good life on my own. Sometimes I feel like I want him to adopt me, but then I would be his perpetual child, and for one, he wouldn't do that and for two, I want to be an adult, not a child
What you are saying is very comforting and rings very true. I keep going back and reading your letters. It really helps.
Thank you.

I'd love to hear more about both of your experience with terminating therapy--Allen as a therapist. How do you handle it when you feel someone is ready to start winding down on therapy and they don't want to? I know Joseph is trying to make this as easy on me as possible.
And Linda, if it isn't too personal--what was it like for you? How did you react initially? What did you and your therapist do to make the transition? How long did you take to get to a place of acceptance and even appreciation, and what helped you get to that place?
Thank you for all of your well wishes towards me--I appreciate that, and I would love to hear about your experiences.

Thank you Linda and Allen,
It's good to hear from someone who's felt the same way. Sometimes I feel like there's something wrong with me because I am so attached to him, but then considering what we've been through together, how could I not feel like this? Very few people understand how I feel, they just say, oh, that's great you're doing so good, like it's no big deal. But it is a very big deal. I spent so much of my life denying my feelings, and now I'm so sad about something that's a good thing. It's a strang mixture of loss and sorrow and growth. Like when the baby bird leaves the nest. It's kind of like that. I think that a lot of times they don't want to, but then they fly on their own and that's what they are made to do.
Joseph is part of me, I hear his voice in my head all the time and I know he cares about me so much. He's the first person in my life who ever really saw me, the real me. I know I'll always have that!
I guess I need to accept the sadness and to let myself feel it and not think of it as bad or the event that is causing it as bad. That's hard!
Thank you, Linda and Allen

I want to be my own person, but I also don't want to give up my relationship with my therapist. Isn't it possible to have both? Are they really mutually exclusive? I feel like I have to keep being upset about this, because in a crazy kind of way, it feels like it could make it not happen. That if I accept it and go with it, it will let it happen. That's how it feels, but in reality, I don't think the two have much to do with each other. I know Joseph is going to do what's best for me, no matter what, but right now it seems like what's best for me is also going to break my heart.
I don't know if I should just grieve the loss and accept it or fight it, I don't know what to do. But I've been seeing him since 1997--he's helped me through all these crises and transitions and becoming almost like a different person and I want him to still be in my life. He keeps telling me it's not going to happen until I'm ready, that I'll know. I don't understand why this has to happen. I'm feeling really upset and sad and bereft. It makes me cry when I think about it. We keep talking about it, but my feelings don't change, not about this.

Doug recommended it to me. It really addresses the whole subject of not being the follower of any guru or master or therapist. But it doesn't address how sad a person--me--feels when they start seeing their therapist less and eventually not at all. My therapist feels that I'm about ready to move to every other week, and I know that's a good thing, as far as my mental health goes, but I don't want to see him less, especially since I'll see him with decreasing frequency til I don't see him at all. I am having a very hard time with this! I don't want to lose this relationship, I don't want Joseph in my life any less--not because I'm his "follower" but because I'll miss him so much. Kopp didn't say a word about that!

I just got done reading If You Meet the Buddha in the Road, Kill Him--thanks to Doug--thank you!
It reminds me, in some ways, of Allen's book, because the chapters in the middle are each based on a book or story. It reminds me how these myths and stories can be mined by insightful people, like resources that can never be exhausted.
I really got a lot out of this book--it makes sense, basically that what we need is inside of us, we don't need to look for a guru or master to be the diciple of. It sets the the journey of the psychotherapy patient as a spiritual journey and traces it through literature.

Do you live in a big city or in the country, Daveh? Ireland is so beautiful, from all the books and pictures and movies I've seen.