Duntay's comments (member since Mar 13, 2009)

Duntay's comments from the Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! group.

I think the fact that the reference to Arthur in the Gododdin is so slight actually lends credence to an earlier date for Arthur, if it is not a later insertion. There is no need to expand upon him, so the listener/reader is assumed to know who he is. Perhaps he is already legendary though.

Not sure about the Beowulf/ Arthur connection.. Beowulf is an ancestral hero to the Anglo Saxons, while Arthur is meant to be a contemporary of sorts.Beowulf is more the sort of person Arthur would have fought against, if he had ever left the dragon and monster slaying in Sweden and come over to Britain.

I think it is Culhwch and Olwen, too Barbarossa. The White Book of Rhydderch in the National Library of Wales has the oldest version, I think.

http://www.llgc.org.uk/index.php?id=whit...

He's also known as Peredur if that helps...he appears in the Mabinogion. Here is a summary of his story:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/history/sites...

it is kind of exciting if you can't find anything else..

Simon Armitage's translation of "Gawain and the Green Knight". It goes at a good pace, but sometimes you can tell he has the Thesaurus out to keep the alliteration going!

Thanks for that. Must get around to reading his translation. I have a copy somewhere..It looks like it will be the highlight of the Poetry Season. Though Michael Wood is doing an episode on Beowulf sometime this week.

There was an interview with Simon Armitage some time ago, about writing the translation and he said they didn't like the look at him and gave him a hard time when he wanted to see the manuscript.

The BBC can be sticklers for location. A colleague and I had to trek to the top of Dundee Law for a radio show!

Tolstoy has a non-fiction Merlin book, too. I think it was calledThe Quest for Merlin. It may be out of print, too. It was actually quite good and built a reasonable case around the six poems in the Black Book of Carmarthen about/by Myrddin and the Scottish Lailoken - both wild men in the forest. It was interesting because it brought in some of the Scottish material. I've lost my copy, though...

I've heard of the Lugh/Llew parallel ( I think it is pretty widely accepted) but not the Cuchulainn/Culhwch. I understand the etymology of Culhwch to be the same as you described it, Barbarossa. 'Ci' is modern Welsh for dog, I don't know about medieval Welsh. Culhwch's story certainly has a piggy theme with the giant boar he has to chase to win his bride (with a bit of help from cousin Arthur).

Yes, I'm sure it could be as well. I don't know if it is possible to tell which one is older? It seems to be the Tristan version that entered the French canon, though. The heart of the Tristan story (or what it became anyway!) is the king betrayed by his wife and one of knights. Lleu Llaw Gyffes isn't a king but his wife betrays him, Gronw Pebr is just a passing hunter he falls in love with. I wonder if it does have its origins in the Mabinogi it might be more to do with the story of King Math and his virgin foot holders? .not really a love triangle, though, more a woman as possession getting handed back and forth (or taken by force)

Clara wrote: "Thank you, Sarah! I'd heard of the Vulgate Cycle vaguely but I never brought it to my attention...if nobody has translated it I'll have to wait until my French improves and find an edition and forc..."
They were translated in the 1990's by some one called Norris J Lacy. They are called 'The Lancelot Grail Cycle' and are in five volumes. I haven't read them myself, I am not as into the High Medieval stuff.

Lancelot-Grail The Old French Arthurian Vulgate and Post-Vulgate in Translation 001

Barbarossa wrote: "Duntay, have you read [b:From Pictland to Alba Scotland, 789-1070|743352|From Pictland to Alba Scotland, 789-1070 (New Edinburgh History of Scotland)|Alex Woolf|http://ecx.images-amazon.com/image..."

No, I have it on my inter library loan list and will let you know. You can read the introduction on Google Book Search.

In a lecture Alex Woolf has put forward the theory of 'Pictland' being located much further north, Dun Nechtan taking place north of the Mouth. I don't know if he addresses it in his book or what his evidence is.Or how he explains the plethora of Pictish stones in Angus.

Duntay wrote: "Barbarossa wrote: "I prefer the hunt for books and only resort to the interweb when all else fails, may end up going to Amazon after all though.
I remember a pub that used to be in the Cow Gate, "S..."
It's a Museum Studies qualification for work (boo). I am going to look at how the Picts are represented in various museums (Depicting the Picts, ha ha)

Just back from our Arthur's Seat trek. It was bracing up there! We couldn't see any plausible caves, I suspect they are more around the Crags.

I think the theory is that Tristan legend is one of the oldest threads in the Arthurian legends, but there is some disagreement on its origin. It is certainly the prototype for the Guinevere/Lancelot/ Arthur love triangle.

There are versions of the names in some of the old Welsh literature, ie the Mabinogi and the Welsh triads. There is also a theory that 'Tristan' might be a variation on the Pictish name 'Drust'. Interestingly, one of the few Pictish symbol stones on the West Coast of Scotland (in Dumfries and Galloway) is at a place called 'Trusty's Hill'. I don't know how words change/translate into other languages, but they sound like they could be related - though of course it could be a chicken and egg situation . Also in Dumfries and Galloway ( I don't know how far from Trusty's Hill) there is a place called the Mote of Mark, which is a 5-7th century hill fort of some status that was excavated in 1913: there is evidence for metalworking, as well as wine imported from France and glass from Germany.

There were two types of poetry in the French courts. The"Chanson de geste" the epic poems such as the "Song of Roland" intended to be performed orally. The "Chanson de roman" (not sure if that is how you spell it - something like that!) is the romantic poetry. It is Chretien de Troyes who adapted the Celtic legends and made additions like the quest for the grail, Lancelot and Guinevere, etc.

I don't know specifically what Malory is refering to, but Chretien deTroyes sounds reasonable. His books were very popular.

Barbarossa wrote: "I prefer the hunt for books and only resort to the interweb when all else fails, may end up going to Amazon after all though.
I remember a pub that used to be in the Cow Gate, "Sneaky Pete's" I th..."

Thanks for the Sneaky Pete's tip - we'll have a look and let you know if they are still there.

There were some investigations at Edinburgh Castle in the late '80's /Early '90's. The report is actually online:
http://eprints.gla.ac.uk/3121/1/edinburg...

Early medieval evidence was disappointingly slight - represented by a comb if I remember correctly, and evidence of a high status diet consisted of deer bones. It didn't put the excavators off thinking it was indeed occupied at the time of the Gododdin. There are some beautiful Roman brooches and some later medieval stuff, so there probably was continuity.

Unfortunately it is one of those sites that has been so built over that any evidence of the old King of the Mountain's mead hall has probably been obliterated

I'm surprised they didn't have it Babarossa, a newish edition came out not too long ago. I think it might be Penguin. You can get it off Amazon.

We'll be going up Arthur's Seat one day next week - but that has to do with my husband's Burke and Hare obsession - he wants to see the cave where the little coffin dolls were found.

I wish I had time for an Arthur binge, but I have a dissertation to write this summer. Your purchases sound interesting. I have the Chretien deTroyes myself, but have yet to read it. Maybe a post-dissertation treat.

Sorry Barbarossa, I seem to be following you again. I followed you here from the Ancient History group..

The University of North Wales at Bangor does an MA in Arthurian Literature:

http://tinyurl.com/dzjsqa

Nice especially to see the bit at the bottom that tells you people have gone on to have careers!

It was once my dream to do that course! I spent a year there as an undergraduate and studied Arthurian literature and loved it. 20 years ago now! I ended up getting sidetracked by archaeology, where Arthur is frowned upon (unless Leslie Alcock was involved).

I didn't see any of Leslie Alcock's books on the bookshelf. Maybe he is a bit too dry?

There is "Arthur's Britain" http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/74290...
and his excavations at Cadbury and Dinas Powys.