Nikki's comments (member since Jan 04, 2009)

Nikki's comments from the Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! group.

Mmm, coincidentally I picked up Rosemary Sutcliff's Arthurian novels just a couple of days ago!

(I'm doing a course on Tennyson starting on... Monday, I think.)

I'm really sad I'm not in my flat right now, 'cause I have a couple of books about Tennyson (and my Collected Poems, and my volume of the Idylls) there and I want to do some background reading.

I've got the book on my summer reading list, so inspiration to read Idylls of the King would be a good thing. Hee.

I guess that's a matter of opinion; I think they do. I read them for the first time when I was about fifteen or sixteen, and although I found the first book quite "kiddy", the rest of the series got more mature. My mum read it just last year, and she found that there are parts that she didn't think children would understand very well, e.g. Owen's relationship with Bran. I think I give kids a bit more credit than she does, but there are definitely more complex feelings and discussions going on for the more aware reader.

I'm not sure why the books would need to "transcend" the YA genre anyway -- YA can be good just as it is.

They're probably my favourite books of all the books I've read so far in my life. They are intended to be children's books, so it's not surprising they seemed a little "YA" to you, Katelyn.

The noise I just made on reading Paul's comment there is not to be described. I think my apple juice came out of my nose.

And I'm still giggling.

How odd, Paul! I'm leaving Wales (very reluctantly) for a week. Tomorrow.

I like that you say "infestation"! Not a fan of Christians, are we?

I love the Nimue in Cornwell's trilogy. I especially like her at first, not as much later on.

Mordred gets reassigned all over the place depending on who is writing, really. Besides, Uther isn't his father in this trilogy; he's his grandfather.

I'm sorry, Arthur, I don't actually understand what you're saying from the way you've phrased it. If there's concern about spoilers, I haven't actually yet said anything that spoils the plot, aside from a little about Lancelot's character.

"Today we may not be accustomed to but specifically the story which does not mention much of Arthur except some family history in this first part."

I'm not sure what you mean by that?

I wouldn't say the story is exactly accurate, but it's closer to reality than some of the high fantasy King Arthurs I've read. Of course it's dramatised -- even Derfel admits that he's rearranging the story to sound good -- but there's a sense of real people, real dirt, etc, etc.

I'll repeat my comments from before. If anyone suggestes something less general they want to discuss, go for it -- I've read the whole thing and studied much of it.

"[The Christian vs. Pagan trend:] definitely has some basis in Le Morte Darthur (Darthur, not D'Arthur, if you want it how Mallory wrote it; I do, having studied it, but...). I have Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretien de Troyes and La Mort de la Roi Artu lined up to read, so we'll see how it goes from there.

Mainly, in Le Morte Darthur, it comes through the women who are sorceresses. Morgan Le Fay being the most obvious, but there are several queens who have magical powers and have to be tamed by the prowess of the knights to maintain social order. There's some bother about a knight who refuses to be a Christian in one of the Tristram tales (my copy isn't here or I'd pinpoint it for you), but for the most part there isn't a great requirement to be a Christian in the earlier tales. It becomes important in The Noble Tale of the Sangrail, where Galahad's complete purity overshadows even Lancelot's perfect honour as a knight, but that's not so much Christian vs. pagan as Christianity entering the tale."

"If you actually read Le Morte Darthur, [Lancelot is:] a bit of an ass there too. I know it was the value system of the text and blahblahblah, but he feels absolutely no remorse for cuckolding his feudal lord, and everything comes down to his honour, his achievement. He only saves Guinevere because it would be counter to his honour not to. "

Sarah -- It definitely has some basis in Le Morte Darthur (Darthur, not D'Arthur, if you want it how Mallory wrote it; I do, having studied it, but...). I have Geoffrey of Monmouth, Chretien de Troyes and La Mort de la Roi Artu lined up to read, so we'll see how it goes from there.

Mainly, in Le Morte Darthur, it comes through the women who are sorceresses. Morgan Le Fay being the most obvious, but there are several queens who have magical powers and have to be tamed by the prowess of the knights to maintain social order. There's some bother about a knight who refuses to be a Christian in one of the Tristram tales (my copy isn't here or I'd pinpoint it for you), but for the most part there isn't a great requirement to be a Christian in the earlier tales. It becomes important in The Noble Tale of the Sangrail, where Galahad's complete purity overshadows even Lancelot's perfect honour as a knight, but that's not so much Christian vs. pagan as Christianity entering the tale.

I've read the whole trilogy, so I'm spoileriffic. If anyone wants me to keep my mouth shut, just holler. Haha.

I studied Le Morte Darthur in Medieval Lit, so it kinda figures I'd know this stuff. Ha.

Well, the Lancelot from this appears to be noble, which is where it comes from... and he's someone that a woman as strong as this Guinevere can control easily. That's how it works in this version, I guess.

If you actually read Le Morte Darthur, he's a bit of an ass there too. I know it was the value system of the text and blahblahblah, but he feels absolutely no remorse for cuckolding his feudal lord, and everything comes down to his honour, his achievement. He only saves Guinevere because it would be counter to his honour not to.

I know what you mean about the interpretations of characters, Anna. It struck me as quite realistic as compared to the high fantasy Arthurian stuff I'd read before. But I got to quite like it.

(You may have a big problem with Lancelot in this one. I did at first. Now I've read Le Morte Darthur, I see where that characterisation comes from, though.)

The first two books aren't that connected, so it doesn't really matter, just know that chronologically Over Sea, Under Stone comes first!

If you want to read The Dark Is Rising sequence, you should know that Over Sea Under Stone comes first, then The Dark is Rising, then Greenwitch, then The Grey King, and then Silver on the Tree.

I recently read Ian McDowell's Mordred's Curse and Merlin's Gift. It's actually from Mordred's point of view, and it's not at all like the Arthurian romances -- no Lancelot. I liked Gawain a lot and felt sorry for Arthur. It's a bit... disgusting in places, and the tone of it is quite modern, but I found it interesting!

King Arthur also comes into one of my favourite trilogies, The Fionavar Tapestry by Guy Gavriel Kay. He isn't in the first book, but in the second and third he plays a reasonably big part, along with Lancelot and Guinevere. It's a beautiful trilogy, if you can get into it. I won't sing its praises here just now, methinks, but I think it's worth reading.

Other people have mentioned The Dark is Rising, so I shan't rave about that, either...

I'd better come back to this thread when my to read list isn't 150 books long!