Barbarossa's comments (member since Dec 05, 2008)

Barbarossa's comments from the Arthuriana -- all things King Arthur ! group.

Mark wrote: "And it's made more complicated by the fact that there don't seem to have been many distinct names in the medieval period..."

Aye, I recently read a bunch of crusades stuff and all the Normans seemed to have the same names (Roger, Robert, or Raymond). My head was mince, could only go through some bits very slowly to keep track. Then half the time they're know by their titles, which clouds the generations.

OK. Maybe just been reading too much recently.
They're both just local hardmen that got mythologised then? I suppose the "bear" connection isn't too surprising, apart from the use of violent animals as poetic devices when describing warriors in both cultures, you will still hear the local "big man" in a boozer being refered to as a bear...certainly in Glasgow neck of the woods.

Aware of the Gododdin mention, it's only in passing and just in one version of the poem. I can't remember of the top of my head which one, they're both in the same book (A and B text), but one seems to have an older more oral source. I know one authority (again can't remember who...don't have the books in front of me at the minute) claims that the name is unlikely to be a later addition due to it's fitting the rhyme scheme of the stanza.
So maybe 6th cent. But a very slight bit of evidence and it mentions nothing of his deeds, merely compares one warrior to Arthur saying that although he was hard as nails he wasn't exactly Arthur.
"He fed black ravens on the rampart of a fortress
Though he was no Arthur
Among the powerful ones in battle
In the front rank, Gwawrddur was a palisade"

The two cultures would have been in close proximity for a wee while prior to either poem (spear hitting shield close if in no other way). And even if they weren't exactly sitting round the campfire sharing stories I think some cross pollination is possible. Also, it may just be an archetype/hero/god thing...like Tyr and Mars being equivalents.

Mark wrote: "How does Rhiannon show the sharpness of her wit and quickness of her mind in this Tale?"

I take it you refer to her wriggling free from the arranged marriage to Gwawl?
Does she use Pwyll to do this? Or is there a genuine attraction? She manipulates him, turns him into an oath breaker, to get her way, seeks the protection of the stronger lord.
This seems one interpretation.
Or they're in love and Gwawl is an inconvenience that must be removed for their love to blosom...but by trickery and the breaking of oaths.
By the breach of the oath to give Gwawl his request (Rhiannon) one of the ordering principals of this society is ignored, the sacred nature of the oath.
Is this the cause of the later grief?

Thanks Mark.
In your research have you found any convincing evidence for Arthur prior to the 9th cent?
You mentioned Beowulf...As Beowulf and Arthur may share an etymology from "bear" do you think there is a link? I don't mean that they were the same actual person, but possibly the same folk hero/archetype. They both seem to force order into a chaotic environment and go out with a last stand.

How is C+O dated then? Is it refered to in other texts? If so where?
I've heard the whole boar hunt that is a central feature of it is much older than the Mab mention of it, but don't know if this is mentioned in connection with the C+O tale or as a similar incident in another story.

Just starting The Mabinogion having not read it in many years. What struck me was the sudden realisation that a text I'd always assumed was ancient was in fact not as old as I'd thought: 14th cent., it's post Geoffrey of Monmouth and also more recent than Chrétien de Troyes.

Chrissie wrote: "Ohhhh - you live near Edinburgh! You lucky person. I adore Edinburgh! Blah for Brussels. The saving grace with Brussels is that it is near lots of other interesting cities and Brittany, France."

No...lived there in the olden days and still pass through regularly. Currently in the Wild West of Connaught.
Did get the book though. Start it tonight...it's been a wee while since I read it, and that was a different trans.

Should be starting this weekend. Will be picking the Davies up in Edinburgh this PM.
Then my ranting shall commence.

Chrissie wrote: "Curiosity pulls me in many directions."

As a wise man once said:
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects."
— Robert A. Heinlein

Chrissie wrote: "This is my first book on the subject, so I will just read it and see what I think. It will be very interesting to hear the comments of the true Arthurians!"

True Arthurians? If you're here you're on the grail quest with us all, we just quest in different directions...some in burnished mail, some over eldritch tomes, some following the fewmets of the beast...the last path does smell a bit.
You are one of us...pass the mead horn!

Mark wrote: "Sioned Davies' translation is the best one yet. In my opinion, that is.

In the first place, she divides dialogue up into paragraphs according to modern practice, which makes it much easier to f..."

Thanks Mark, haven't picked up the Davies one yet, will though...it has been on my ever growing list for a while now.
Any notes in the edition you have? Or is a background assumed? Feel fairly well armed for the onslaught, but you can sometimes pick up a few wee gems in a well annotated work.

Going for the Sioned Davies translation?
Will it make much difference?
As it's the newer one I'm keen to give it a go.

Would be keen to go for the Sioned Davies version of The Mabinogion in November if you're up for it Mark. If you lead it I'll happily rant away with you.

Annette wrote: "Sorry - I don't know how to flag up the book title! No doubt its very simple and I'll feel very silly not knowing!"

Just click on the "add book/author" above the comment box you type in, then search for it and click "add".

Terence wrote: "I may be in the minority here but for sheer bloody-minded good fun, I've always liked Thomas Berger's Arthur Rex..."

The author of Little Big Man?
Didn't know he had done an Arthurian tale.
Will be looking out for it...thanks for the heads up.

The Mabinogion?
Tristan With the Surviving Fragments of the 'Tristan of Thomas'?

Haven't read the Tennyson, on other stuff for a break from old pre-Galfridian texts - ooh, look I used "pre-Galfridian".
Anyone reading anything next?
Medieval or more modern...sorry, the medieval stuff will seem modern to me after Nennius, Aneirin, and pals.

I may have to leave this group for a while and read light fiction...spending too long reading old stuff (sorry, I mean pre-Galfridian obviously) and analysis of it.
Have to say I have gone from thinking Arthur was an actual person to being fairly convinced he wasn't...or if he was he had little relation to any of the stories that developed. I suppose I'm now an Arthur agnostic? Still waiting on some proof.
Starting to think there may be deep links between Arthur and Beowulf through bear myths, adding a human face to a mythical or folkloric figure.

Anyone read: A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court?