Jill's comments (member since Jun 06, 2009)

Jill's comments from the Evolution vs. Intelligent Design group.

As far as my belief in the LDS religion, it is based upon the feelings I got when I prayed and asked God if the Book of Mormon came about the way that Joseph Smith claims it did: by him translating an ancient record.

OK, I swear I'm not being snarky here, but what did this conversation with god tell you about Joseph Smith's plural marriage/spiritual wifery/polygamy thing? Because I've genuinely always wanted to know how mainstream LDS revere Joseph Smith and the book he wrote, but have totally tossed aside the tenet on plural marriage (publicly, anyway). I mean, if you're going to believe that he spoke to god and Moroni and all that jazz, then did god mumble when it came to discussing marriage with Joseph so that Joseph got it wrong and thought god said "Marry whichever woman gives you an itch in your trousers, regardless of whether or not you have a wife" when god was really saying "No, you asshole, keep your pee pee for your wife only"?

I mean, if Joseph Smith got it wrong on the whole plural marriage thing, how do you know he got anything right?

This reminds me that I'd been planning to write a review of Under the Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer. (Sneak preview: I liked it.)

Aharonsmith, as best I can tell, doesn't care about evidence. He's only about what makes him feel warm and cozy at night. There's no reasoning with that, because reason isn't involved.

Did you know that Charles Darwin, the founder of evolution, renounced all his claims on his death bed? Even the founder could not justify his claims and in the end turned to the one true God.

No, he didn't. That's a lie that creationists like to spout. But then, creationism as science is a lie, period.

And even if Charles Darwin had renounced all of his scientific work at the end of his life, that would make evolution no less true. That's the beauty of science: fact is fact regardless of how many or how few people believe it. Science isn't a popularity contest.

And Ashleigh, if your parents made you go to church on a regular basis, they were attempting to brainwash you.

Abby wrote: "So, Jill, why did you turn from God? If you were a Christian once, why did you leave him? What reason did you have? That evolution is better? THAT is not true. Why did you become an evolutionist?"

I, to steal a quote from Terry Pratchett and Neil Gaiman, didn't so much fall as saunter vaguely downward. Basically, the new youth minister, who had replaced our old (good) youth minister, was a bigoted, self-righteous, judgmental prick. That's what got me to leave the church. After that, it was my pesky habit of reading and wanting to know stuff and question stuff that lead me to leave Christianity. I became a pagan (eclectic Wiccan) for many years. Shortly after the Sept. 11th attacks, I realized that at no point during all of the chaos did I ever feel the urge to pray. It was at that point when I realized that I no longer believed, and hadn't for quite a while.

That's the short version of my story, anyway.

As to when I became an evolutionist? I've always believed the theory of evolution. My parents are college educated people who encouraged me to read. They also, my father a Catholic and my mother a Southern Baptist, believe evolution to be an accurate summation of how to explain the diversity of life. Evolution really doesn't have anything to do with religion, unless you take the Bible literally. My parents are both people who take it metaphorically, so evolution never bothered them. My brother and I were raised to take an interest in science. We were given microscopes, chemistry sets, and telescopes from a very early age. All you have to do is look through a telescope to realize that the earth is far older than 6,000 years.

And my parents did NOT brainwash me.

Yes, they did, if they're responsible for your current hostility towards science.

They gave me a choice.

Oh, I doubt that.

I could believe that my great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great(and as many as it takes) was a monkey,

He wasn't. Humans, chimps, bonobos, and gorillas all descend from a common ape-like ancestor. Further back, we share a common ancestor with orangutans. Monkeys are much further removed, though we do share a common ancestor with them if you move back along the timeline even further.

or I could believe that God created Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

So, instead of wanting to believe you descended from an ape-like ancestor, you'd prefer to believe that we came from dirt. Interesting.

It's a choice, not a brainwashing.

I actually think you've yet to make a choice, because you've been brainwashed. I can understand that, though. You're scared of going to hell. Now, that is your parents' fault.

Abby wrote: how could you believe evolution?

I'm scientifically literate.

I still think it's ridiculous!

Of course you do. You're not scientifically literate. If you are the age you say you are, this is not surprising. You don't even get to the interesting science classes until high school.

Jill, you said that it is the duty of the teachers on here to drill knowledge into my skull, but I've already got more knowledge than all of you put together!

You've yet to prove that statement. And I seriously doubt an 8th grader knows as much as a college graduate. (Well, having met a few, you might know more than some college graduates.)

and Jews, Muslims, and Christians are NOT the same. You cannot look at a muslim and say that he is the same as a Christian, no matter who they worship.

No, you're not the same. But your origins are the same. You worship the same god. Why do you think there is so much tension in the middle east? That's what happens when Jesus, Mohammad, and Jacob all grow up around the block from each other, so to speak.

Aharonsmith wrote: "rgb wrote: There has never been a good excuse for believing the Bible to be true

There is plenty of 'good excuses' to believe the bible to be true. It has inspired and helped thousands of peop..."

Nothing that you say here means that the Bible is true. All it means is that some people find comfort in it. Children find comfort in the idea that a stuffed animal to sleep with can protect them from monsters. It gets the child to sleep, but it doesn't mean it's true.

And one more thing. You all are probably adults. You've gone through school, maybe college, you have a job.

Some of us are, yes.

Whatever it is, you are adults. But I bet you do not know something about me. What you do not know about me is that I am not an adult.

Well, then, I praise your communication skills. Because you're better at composing a coherent sentence than more kids these days.

Do you want to know something? I am a 13 year old teenage girl going into eighth grade. You have been arguing with a 13 year old. Embarrassed? Of course you are.

Why would that be embarrassing to us? There are several teachers on this board, it seems. It's their job to drill knowledge into your skull. Me? I don't care how old you are. You're old enough to know better.

You've been going on all this time about my parents "brainwashing" me with "myths" (put this way by rgb, might I add).

They have.

You have asked me why I believe such things as the Bible over and over. Now I will answer that question with simply a verse before I turn the computer off. I will tell you exactly why I believe the Bible, and it is not - as I know you all will be thinking - because I am not mature enough or educated enough to see the "facts", as you call them. It is because of what the following verse states.

Psalm 17:17 "...your word is truth."

Zeus, Thor, Vishnu, and Xenu would beg to differ.

First of all, I'd like to say that Muslims and Jews have nothing to do with Christians; they are very different.

They all worship the same god: the god of Abraham.

Second, I believe that those who stand behind evolution just do not WANT to believe the Bible.

My mother "stands behind evolution" and she's born and raised Southern Baptist. She's just not an idiot.

You know you are wrong, but you just will not give in because you are stubborn.

Well, you have me pegged there. I am stubborn. But I'm also amenable to change if new ideas are presented to me and they hold up under scrutiny.

And if you do not know it now, you will someday. You will find the truth when you die, and have to answer to God for what you have done. You will - one day - believe.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, toots. I cannot say the same to you, however, because I don't think you'll have any consciousness left with which to know anything, truth or otherwise, once you die.

But for now, I will pray for ALL of you. When I have morning or evening devotions, I will think of you and pray that you might know God and love Him one day on this earth. I will ask God to work in your lives, and change your hearts for good.

I'm a former born-again Christian. You'd now have a better chance of turning me into a desk lamp. But knock yourself out.

You may say that you don't need my prayers, but - and I think I speak for all Christians when I say this - you really do. Everyone needs prayers, but mostly those who refuse to love God and trust Him as their King need prayers.

You must do nothing but pray, because Christianity ain't the dominant religion on the planet.

So maybe I sound like I'm preaching.

There's no "sound like" about it. You're preaching.

Maybe I sound like an annoying missionary who won't leave you alone.

Not true at all. You keep coming back. The missionaries that show up at my house seldom do.

Who is bothering you and nagging you about something that is no business of theirs. Do I? If so, I have only this to say in response:

Mark 16:15 "He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the good news to all creation.'"

Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones. -- Psalm 137:9

I'm doing my duty here on earth. Are you?

Yes. Though I think I'll be changing my duty by going back to school and getting a tech writing degree.

Jessica wrote: "Jill, just because God chose not to strike you dead does not mean he does not care or does not exist. In fact, your statement is a logical fallacy. It's called "bifurcation" and unfortunately, it i..."

Jessica, I'm just going to cover this one comment, as I'm sure others are already lining up to dissect the rest of your post. "Bifurcation," or the "either-or fallacy," wasn't what I was attempting at all. She got in a snit over the fact that I didn't capitalize "god." I simply said that if god had such a problem with me not capitalizing it, he was free to strike me down before I hit the post button. He did not, so I assumed he didn't (if he exists) care, and said as much. Do you honestly think god gives a damn whether or not we capitalize his name? Is he that petty? We have peaceful protesters being slaughtered in Iran for wanting nothing more than a fair and non-rigged election, AIDS skyrocketing in Africa, and misery and starvation happening worldwide, but god gives a crap whether or not I capitalize his name? Believers seem to view their god as that bitchy friend on Facebook that gets all bent out of shape when you fail to take their "How well do you know me?" quiz.

Guess he doesn't have a problem with it. Or he's not real. Take your pick.

Abby wrote: "Jill,

You wrote:

"To answer your second question, Christianity is the primary focus, at least in the U.S., because it's the primary religion, and its proponents have done their damndest to ..."

If a child were to stand up in class and proclaim that god created the heavens and the earth 10,000 or less years ago, I'd ask them to provide evidence for it scientifically. If they couldn't, I'd ask them to sit down and we'd move on with evolution, which does have evidence in its favor.

I'll let you in on a little secret, Abby: if we were presented with irrefutable proof, tomorrow, that evolution was not correct (say, if someone found a real rabbit fossil in the pre-Cambrian, for instance), that still wouldn't make creationism true. You guys would still have to supply scientifically verifiable evidence of your claims. And as of right now, you've failed to do so.

And Satan doesn't exist, Abby. And if he did, he'd be proof that god is not all powerful, because he couldn't even keep a snake out of a garden.

And, last but not least, I was raised Southern Baptist, but I was pagan for many years. Many pagans don't bother to capitalize "god". I was one of them. I'm not going to change my style for your comfort. If god has a problem with me doing this, may he strike me down before I can hit "post".

Abby wrote: "Why, may I ask, is it that, of all the religions in the entire world, Christianity is the most ridiculed of all of them? Why are none of the other beliefs derided as Christianity is? "

To refute your first question, you clearly haven't heard of Scientology. They had an entire movement waged against them just last year. People were protesting them in globally staged simultaneous protests. This went on for several months. They were mocked quite thoroughly. Check out YouTube if you don't believe me.

To answer your second question, Christianity is the primary focus, at least in the U.S., because it's the primary religion, and its proponents have done their damndest to shove their beliefs down the throats of everyone else in the nation, including innocent children sitting in science classrooms.

What evidence is there for creation? How do you test for it in a laboratory setting? And most important of all, how do you disprove god? What test can you think of to set up that would irrefutably disprove a creator? A scientific premise must be falsifiable. If you want to call creationism science, it has to live up to the requirements set up in the scientific method.

Abby, tell me, you say that you disagree with evolution based on the facts. Which facts do you disagree with?

Here you go. Just read over this list and tell me which parts you disagree with:

Hmmmm...I wonder if Sarfati is a biologist. *checks Wikipedia* Nope.

He's also a Messianic Jew, which is interesting.

Abby wrote: "i suppose that would not be one's guess at first sight. HOWEVER, we DO have the book of Genesis. There's a REASON God had it written down for us - so that we wouldn't believe the lies that evolutionists tell us."

Actually, God was just screwing with you. Separating the wheat from the chaff, as it were.

Ana wrote: "this is not a spelling bee."

It's not even English.