Candy's comments

Candy's comments from the Constant Reader group.

Note: Candy is no longer a member of this group.

Oh there are also two books I use for keeping focused on goals with volunteer work Whitaker. These are indispensable tools for anyone concerned with grammar and language. One is Man's Search For Meaning by Viktor Frankl and the other one is a brilliant BRILLIANT short story called Poor Koko by John Fowles.

Hey Whitaker...I did some asking around and some meditation and i believe I can share al little bit to answer your thoughtful question.

Whitaker asked:

I' m curious, how do you reach out to a homless man, say, and get them to open up and talk and write and learn? What have you experienced that works best for you?

I've got a bunch of answers. And some may seem a little unorthodox. But it is the heart of the passion I feel for doing service.

First...how do I reach out? Well, I make myself available. I am a pretty good listener. I'm not an angel, but I am compassionate. I'm a good loyal friend and rarely lose a friend or mess up so badly...I believe in analysing human dynamics and relationships. I am involved with the ethics of friendship...and having made some mistakes in the past with people...I work to not make those mistakes again, and keep a loving heart. But I use my friends as a source of strength and history of behaviour.

I am also...oddly considering I have a fairly outgoing personality, not a very trusting person. I have had the experience that sometimes when we open up about ourselves there are people out there who will use that sharing in vindictive ways.

When I was a child I was sexually attacked. It was in a park a long long time ago.(I never let my daughter play in park for her whole life. She played outside our apartment on a street corner where all our friends and I could see her) I've had a lot of therapy about it and have given time to rape and battered womens shelters in large part because of that experience. I don't like talking about it. But...I am many years recovered from the experience and the memories of it I use as a source of knowing what it feels like to be hurt, to be judged or mistreated. I believe in an unorthodox way this gives me a good background for compassion of suffering. It is not unusual for those of us who have been attacked to become involved in volunteer work.

In the literacy programs I helped out in Toronto you had interviews where you need to explain to social workers why you want to volunteer with runaway kids. I always told them about my rape and that it made me understand the vulnerabilities of kids who aren't being cared for in traditional families. I suppose it is a "street cred" in some ways for proving why I would be good for such work. In those literacy programs you basically make your self available. You put in a consistent regular set of hours. The kids might be late, they might even be missing...but to get their thier trust you show up. It also helps to be a person who is casual looking. I've always been involved in music and concerts and art and you could probably stereotype me as dressing lie a person who is urban nd artsty> It's amazing how much that gets the immediate respect of kids.Not every volunteer looked "alternative" like me. But it was a door opening for some particularily alienated young people. They could trust me because I looked like I listened to the same music they did, and quite often, I did.

I didn't make traditional lesson plans. Sometimes literacy programs having you helping someone fill out paperwork for their parole officer. You can not pretend you are not afraid of a former convict. Or a tough teenager. You need to be able to communicate non-verbally very quickly that you are not judging and you are a welcoming face. It's not something I believe that can be taught or faked. I believe you have to be real. But thats just my opinion. We don't have the same options as conventional educational settings nor any academically correct or sanctioned positions of power or pedagogy. Sometimes a "tutoring session" might be helping someone write a resume or fill out a job application. If we I am helping some fill out a job application...the actual paperwork is not the focus. I ask what kind of job, what will they feel like when they get a job, when they get their first paycheque? Often it is not working through essays or book reviews. But sometimes the work can be...in some scenarios...school work. Talking is the basic way I share to assure trust. I also know what it feels like to not trust people.

When working with homeless men and women, adults...sometimes being a person they feel comfortable with is going outside for a cigarette together. Sure, I know that might not appeal to non-smokers or such...but it's amazing how bonding that can be to someone living outside. I would als sugges tthat having a natural conversation style is an asset too. A lot of homeless people have ehalth issues, have been beaten, have been in trouble with schools, teachers, Authortity figures. Sometimes just being cool is enough. Again I don't believe being cool is something that can be taught. it something in the heart. And like the vulnerable life of living outside...I know what it means to protect myself from danger even if that danger is something like negative attitudes in my world. I do not accept negative people or attitudes in my life. My skills for measuring character are the same skills homeless people use to measure words, body language, authority figures, etc. Homeless people have to navigate the law as much as they do muggers.

When we set up the art programs for indigent persons we just showed up. We put up signs, we brought supplies and we sat there. Sometimes running outside in the hallway to say "who wants to do art?" and maybe be a little silly. The social workers also knew some of the people who make art and had given them a heads up. I'll tell you something interesting Whitaker. I've never given one bit of lesson or advice or instruction technically. Most people already know what they want to make...they just need a warm place to sit, a cup of coffee, and material. While sitting around conversation occurs. One of the benefits of such an art program is not only is someone who is creative and talented but homeless making art...but they might be sharing what their health status is, or like anyone they might have to vent about something in their every day life...sitting around making a drawing or painting for an afternoon gives them a new ear to share. I have often found that there is an uncanny "spidey sense" in homeless people. I know that even a positive stereotype is a negative...but let me explain. I believe that sense and skills are developed for reading character and attitude with people who have been attacked and in people living displaced. It's a skill that the body or mind subconsciously feels needs to be heightened for survival. Bear with me Whitaker.

I have found that the bs meter on trauma victims, in the underdog and in homeless people is something we all have in common. We are all shared in our fear of being hurt again. For real.

if you can transmit a very real common sense with clients you can likely build a rapport. A low bs factor will get you in the door. A hoity toity will get you kicked out.

And this might sound unorthodox too...but I believe people are attracted to light. They are attracted to happy energetic people. And the same is true with homeless people as anyone. So a couple of people arriving at a community centre with some positive energy, happy hearts...well people want to hang out with people like that. It's true for people who live conventional home life styles as it is for those who live outside. Being happy feels good. I think sometimes when Andy was at the outreach with me...the people joined us because we were simply excited about hanging out and painting together and getting others to join us. in many ways once we were all sitting down it was often difficult to realize that sometimes these men and women had been outside all night in -15F. We all wanted to make art together and chew a little fat.

I love talking about this stuff. I'm not Christian (if you want to read about my family history you can read one of my last couple of posts in "the apostophe thread"...I can't re-write all that here har!) but a couple of my friends are Christian. My husband is Catholic. My point is...that I have a girlfriend who is a Christian here in Chicago and although I am a more or less lapsed Buddhist (another long story, met the Dalai Lama when I was a kid...loved him and he taught me meditation and initiation) I went o her church with her last week. My friend and I have many long talks about fiath, service, disbelief...and she wanted me to come with her to her church...because she thought it tended to explore these questions in ways some other churches hadn't...and she felt my feelings were conduive to her experiences there. It was a really cool experience. You know, I'm from Canada...and you can know someone for ten years and not know their religion or if they have one. It's not up front like it seems to be with my experience in this country. I married an American last fall...just to catch you up...religion is so up front here. It's absolutely fascinating to me becauese it feels so different than Canada. We don't do things up large there...many of our traditions and customs look like half assed attempts compared to the pomp and circumstance I see and nejoy here. Anyways, her church was awesome. It was something I'd never encountered before. Hip urban Christians. Seriously, tats, piercing, punk clothing, dark, ironic and what might often be associated with rock and roll or some anarchistic artist movement challenging religion rather than holistically living it. I was really kind of excited by the experience and so happy my friend had such a great community of mutually faithful. I am not sure how to explain the relevance of this experience here in this thread..e.xcept I guess it was kind fo a lesson for me to see that my stereotype of what was hip and urban...closely related to my lifestyle...was also in a Christian setting and community. I think it's always exciting when we get our pre-conceptions blown away or have paradigm shifts of any kind at any level. Do you know what I mean?

it connects to the way we might be able to respect religious folks or religion even if we have no time for it, and don't have belief. It connects to the way we might have even more than tolerance or respect for each others beliefs...but maybe there is a way to have a dialogue between these seemingly incompatable world views? A dialogue that flowed instead of clashed as it often has in the last hundred or so years...

Sorry I said I was going to try not to make long posts anymore today. I guess I am not able to make a sound bite regarding this topic at the moment.

Oops I think I gave you a link to a trailer. I believe the whole series is here on YouTube...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UcIQb5wK6...

J.D. I bet you would enjoy this program...it's called "The History of Disbelief"

http://www.veoh.com/collection/briefhist...

I think you can find the whole thing online. I believe it is very good at helping us all try to understand how others think, why some people feel faith or disbelief. I know several religious and faithful people who found this mini-series very insightful. I hope it might be of interest to you. It gives an interesting view of some of the movement and belief system (is that possible?) of atheists and the history...

Oh and welcome, J.D....I'm a terrible one at keeping track of who has newly joined or seeing new faces.

I really really love Bill Maher. I'm almost religious about watching his hbo show. I don't out and out agree with everything he thinks or feels...but I love what he is doing.

I really loved Religulous but I winced a few times. Maher is heavy handed like I am and I am sure that is why I like him so much, har! (plus...I actually find him sexy and terribly funny). But he was a little too focused on finding the rotten sides of organized religion.

"While there are ignorant, superstitious, and bigoted people who attend church on Sunday, I don't believe religious people have a monopoly on those vices.'

I agree and I believe an inversion of this thought too. Religious people do not have a monopoly on asking all the big questions in life. Atheists also want to know "why are we here?" "what is the meaning of life" "how do we practice kindness and humanitarian values?" "what is faith?" "why do I always lose socks in the dryer?"

And Bill Maher is an amazing example of an atheist who asks the big questions and comes up with different answers than religion. I wish he had looked for more religious people who lived with ambiguity. Many of us spiritual folks live without answers, with ambiguity as much as any atheist.

I really love Maher...and I think Religulous is an important documentary...you know what I'd love to see? Maher do a mini-series on the subject...not on his tv show. But a whole new mini-series examining the inversions and crossovers between people. The positive comparison and similarity between some atheists and some devout.

p.s Whitaker...will you comfortable to let me write to you about my experiences and technical and spiritual challenges with your last question? I don't know if I should write about it on a public forum so directly, okay? I don't want to violate a protocol or personal situation of someone who is homeless...or give me a bit to make a phone call to ask one of the Fathers and see what they say, okay? I'll give them a call in a day or so.

whoops...sorry long post...continued...

Ironically, my loosey-goosey (as my mother used to say) artsy fartsy high school days turned out to be a valuable experience for hanging out with folks who are displaced or not living within the same economic matrix as most of our society.

Speaking of my mother, another thing I will share with you Theresa is your interest in my family. I have shared with you and CR these family stories but maybe you don't remember, I sure wouldn't expect them to be memorable. I feel like they are quite boring so why they would interest someone else I am not sure, but you keep seeming to be interested, so here goes! My family sort of ties in to this interest or possibly appalling sense you felt from my comments. I can see why you might be curious about my family. As I've already said a lot of my family was in the military. My mothers side of the family is from northern spots in Canada and her side of the family is Hebrew, Scottish, Ojibwa and distant Irish. My dads side of the family lived mostly in western Canada once coming from Denmark and Norway. So a part of my family wasn't the Normans conquests but those darn Vikings. But actually, my family isn't half as exciting as Vikings...just average Canadian "mutts" I suppose. My dads side of the family were the transplants I suppose you might say? We tried to eat all the kinds of foods that al the different customs of such a family mixture might try to keep up with. My parents got into the 1960's with trying trendy new foods like avocado. My dads grandmother had a deli on Vancouver Island. My mum's grandfather had a fox farm way up north. My mums family worked in the railroad, and she in fact was born in a train stop in the "boonies", or "hicks". My dads dad fought in two world wars via Denmark. Both my parents have changed their original names. I guess it's a kind fo family thing. My fathers name was Anglocized and when I was in my 20's he changed it back to the original Danish. My mum has changed her name 3 or 4 times. We didn't have a religion, instead my mum used to take us to all kinds of synagogues, temples, Mide priests, tarot card readers, the Unitarian church. She was really into comparative religion and visiting graveyards. She also was into spiritual masses where psychics would tell fortunes or heal people. My father was a hard core atheist. So sometimes my parents would argue over these trips to various religious studies or sanctuaries. He said he just didn't get it, although since he was working full time back then, and a college student he said he was too tired on weekends to go to synagogue or tarot card readings.

I don't know these family travels are really more my parents world and experiences. They were very interested in geneology and went to Denmark to stay in touch with our family there and family who moved to the States. I've enver really been into geneology that much. But, it was fun when my parents were tracking down lost cousins and finding out surprising skeletons in the closet...at least a s a kid the skeletons in the closets were the fun parts. My mum still has her northern rural accents she said "wharsh" instead of "wash". And once my dad went to college he tried to improve all of our pronunciation. My sister and I can butcher the pronunciation and spelling of any word.

See Theresa, it's a sure sign of old age when I'm recalling boring family stuff yikes!

I don't know what literacy theory was popular back in your day 30 years ago, so I can't speak on that point. I do know that when I was volunteering I never heard anything that would have encouraged us to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like." But that does sound very 1960s, so I will grant it might be something you were taught way back then. I'm not much of a fan of pedagogical theory of any stripe anyway, even the anything goes persuasion. You made me bust out laughing again here. It wasn't the 1960's, har! I'm terrible at math but 30 years ago isn't the 60's is it? And we didn't have any literacy theory per se that I recall Theresa. My example being that the kinds of discussions or approaches about literacy were different by the 1990's and today. I would say it would be accepted to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like" while working with sensitivity to others skills in volunteer work. It's not about faking compassion or pretending to be "on the same level" as someone else.... but coming from a belief that we are the same as others.. Not lower to a different level or going up to a higher level...but see that people are all on the same level. There is no sub-standard communication. And we make mistakes. Even with the best intentions to be respectful all of us stumble or fall from grace. Often the volunteer work I do is in churches or with spiritual venues where a philosophy is that god made everyone with same value and preciousness, same level. Iguess you could say that we let the clients set the tone to some degree. Now maybe that is an "anything goes" attitude...anything but name-calling, violence, cussing. And I don't think priests, volunteers and social workers are suggesting a pedagogical theory. Just warm and friendly. You can't pretend to be on a similar "level". I might even suggest that many of us hopes to offer sincere opportunity for service. You can't pretend to be warm and friendly. It is an asset to be sincerely a people person. I hope that makes some sense and I do not represent all volunteers with my feelings here.

Theresa, I like to try make jokes too. I was trying to have some fun with posts to Whitaker too. I I can understand how you could imagine my schooling must have pretty flaky. It was, I've told a few anecdotes about it here over the years, you may or may not recall. My high school curriculum was really west coast and quite more slack than my friends who grew up in Ontario. When I was really little we went to school on a lot of military bases...I remember being sent home on a really cold day in Ottawa for wearing jeans under my skirt. My parents had to talk to some administration to change rules so girls could wear jeans to school in cold weather. We moved from a fairly structured lifestyle on that military base to a small island off west coast with our principal who had moved to Canada so his oldest son wouldn't get drafted to Vietnam. . The schools were so different and it was very much an atmosphere where teachers were trying to be cool and "laid back" and let students read just about anything for homework assignments. I remember comparing the books my friend Mister Anchovy read in high school in much more conservative, traditional Toronto to what I read on Quadra Island. We were howling with laughter because I had read Call Me Madam, comic books, and album cover lyrics for English classes. He had read The Illiad, War and Peace and Conrad. I don't if I can explain how ridiculous it was that I read "Call Me Madam'...it was written by a woman who was in pop culture and had written a book several years earlier about being a prostitute. I also remember seriously trying to interpret album cover lyrics for a presentation. I wasn't still a very good reader even in highschool...I was a very slow learner...but the laid back idea of acepting comic books and album cover lyrics for assignments helped me get better at reading. In my high school we really did be encouraged to "talk however we feel like and write however we feel like". I know it sounds flaky, and it is funny in lots of ways. I can see how I might also sound appalling.

I like to try to write some joking in my posts here too. So I do appreciate your attempt at joking too. I was attempting to write a funny line when I said in Canada talking about grammar and language is one of our national sports. I'm not sure if I was funny or not. Comedy is a very tough genre to write, I know because I've helped work on quite a few comedy projects from sketch to films and it's a real tricky but fun genre. There can be a big gap between making a joke and actually accomplishing being funny. You were successful with something being funny in your post. Seriously, I lost my cup of morning coffee ...and my keyboard is sticking now because I laughed so hard when you said "I don't know what literacy theory was popular back in your day 30 years ago, so I can't speak on that point."

I laughed so hard, because I am really old. I guess it does sound pretty funny to be waxing poetic about 30 years ago. I'm an old bag alright so thank you for my morning laughter. It was a good one. I'm sorry if I sounded like I was trying to be old and wise and "back in my day" I didn't mean to use my old age as some kind of sign that I know more than you, I really didn't Theresa. I do value your insight on many topics even if I don't agree with you on many of them. So thanks for getting me to laugh about that. Ha ha! But when I first volunteered in a womans shelter...we did do things a little differently than how we did things by the 1990's and today.

When we have drop-in classes at Wicker Park here in Chicago or where I used to volunteer in east Toronto...I don't think it would be conducive to bring the kind of teaching styles or tools that are used by conventional schools or university professors in many situations or environments. The foundation for traditional literacy technques is available but it might not be the way the work is accomplished in conventional education settings. The approaches used by those valuable professions might seem too intimadating or be perceived as "controlling" with folks who haven't had always good experiences with people in positions often considered of power or leadership. I loved Ruth's idea of different coloured markers for her teaching experience. But it wouldn't be a method I would choose to use while working with a fellow who hadn't lived inside in years or a woman who had been beaten and battered. Sometimes the job of working with a teenage runaway with literacy skills involves just being there and opening dialogue about how they felt about a recent thing they read or talked about or what is going on in their lives. Sometimes, for example an art workshop might have a bunch of us sitting around and making something, a painting or drawing...but a fair bit of the situation is about finding out how people are doing, just talking. Maybe I am not the best qualified for such work, especially when I think about your feelings towards "anything goes"...but perhaps I can offer to you why sometimes such a relaxed attitude opens dialogue? And sometimes opening dialogue or offering company and a warm place to sit is an important part of literacy success, or art work being practiced.

continued...

Here you go Whitaker...here is the prime mandate/objective of Loi 101. I think you will see quite quickly how much I am influenced by this aspect of Canadian life...and when the topic of grammar arises depending on how the topic is couched...why I might bristle...just a different upbringing and background...it's really a part of my country's constitution and an important philosophical approach for many of us in Canada.

"to make of French the language of Government and the Law, as well as the normal and everyday language of work, instruction, communication, commerce and business". It also states that the National Assembly is to pursue this objective "in a spirit of fairness and open-mindedness, respectful of the institutions of the English-speaking community of Quebec, and respectful of the ethnic minorities, whose valuable contribution to the development of Quebec it readily acknowledges". In addition, it states that the National Assembly of Quebec recognizes "the right of the Amerinds and the Inuit of Quebec, the first inhabitants of this land, to preserve and develop their original language and culture".

p.s. Whitaker...I think you must have added the last set of terminology later...while I was responding to the first section of your post. What are you and I now separated at birth? I remember the first time I saw a sign in Montreal for "le hotdog"...it was back in the day and even then I knew how funny that was. I wouldn't have been able to explain it, but just knew. Darling, we know Old English, I've read Beowulf like three times.

:)

Your list of "new French" is hilarious...and it might even be against the law in Canada!

Oh ha ha exactly what I was saying, Whitaker. I just don't think it leads to the conclusion of "trickle down". Down from what? A higher plane? A mountain? A social standing? A duck? A dictator? A cloud? A god? A tree?

In addition to taking over their land, the Normans also took over their language. No. It was more like the English took over the French language...but this terminolgy of taking over isn't quite accurate. Assimilate is much more closer to the transition.

And I believe it was Marc Antony who said, "Ah, but ze French, she is just Laaaatin zpoken badly." (This remark is likely apocryphal since it has been attributed also to Lucius Annaeus Seneca.)

Whitaker, I don't need to wiki it...I'm from a bilingual country. I had to practice English and French since I was five years old. Canadians take language, especially French and it's history very very seriously, heh heh. Language and grammar protection is like one of our national sports. We have quite strict laws about French and protecting distinct societies. This is probably another aspect of how my brain is wired. Probably adds to why I have such a particular view about the subject.

I suspect most people haven't met "real" snobs. I know quite a few dedicated language freaks. Actually, I met a couple of them here at CR. We've had a few true blue self-described English and grammar snobs pass through here. (I say this lovingly because they adopted me of sort...go figure the worst writer at CR!) Some all the way from Britian. I am still good friends with them, but they felt they could never get a decent conversation going. They felt us over here in North America speak lousy English...even the well spoken ones. We don't read "good" literature here. Everything is fast. Fast poetry, fast novels,fast posts. They tell me, all self-respecting language lovers of English and French read Moliere and Shakespeare. But maybe not so much in North America. I tell them we read different good stuff, heh heh.

Meanwhile...after many decades of protecting the French language in Canada we find that the strict guidelines for French language and culture are ironically it's death knell. It seems keeping a language "pure" is like giving it a death sentence. languages stay strong...like English when they assimilate and adopt slang, international words, new usages. French protection rules with a mandate to stay alive and distinct may have shut it self off from the very life force of what makes language healthy. Absorbing all kinds of words and usages. We want language and language skills to stay strong, stay relevant? Well then embrace a little anarchy, a little slang, throw in some trendy technical terms, and a little strange usage.

:)

And hey. Whitaker, again great posts this morning. I noticed that you had managed to embrace a lot of what Andy and I had been saying...but in a way that some others were more receptive to hearing. That was pretty cool. I even had to double check to see if you had copy and pasted some of what I had said, heh heh. Especially the bit about the motives behind the church sign. I really thought it was cool you found a way to play "peacemaker".

Also...I don't know how long you've been at CR, but if it's been about three years, maybe you notice we tend to have this very discussion pop up: over and over. Over and over and over. We even had a couple of the same links posted before. Someone invariably brings out Stanley Fish. Someone usually claims that losing touch with grammar is the end of the social fabric as we know it. Someone else says "the kids these days can't write". Someone says how much they love this language or that. Usually French. It's a little like here at CR we are in the novel No Exit just having some of these same issues over and often seeing the same folks bring up the very same things we did before. It's pretty funny. I'm sure this topic will pop up again in another year or two. We've probably had it about five or six times in ten years. Other web boards too.

I told my girlfriend this evening about this discussion and she was like "Candy, there are rules. No one is supposed to talk about sex, religion, politics or grammar at a dinner party!"

Oops, Jane. Those meats in French are good old fashioned French slang. Slang that is if you might be Roman :) It's been a while since I have practiced Latin, but both pork and beef are not from French. They are traced back to porcus in Latin...the French slang usage became porc. And beef once boeuf is more French vernacular from Latin...of the Latin bovis/bos. I don't know for sure when but I think it was around that fellow Julius Caesar campaigning in what is sometimes called Gaul. And it's not unlikely that the Latin can be tracked through Sanskrit or Indo-Iranian.

Jane said...The conquered people still had their own words for the animals like "pig" and "cow", but the French words trickled down for the meat of those animals pork (porc) and beef (boeuf).

Jane, your idea of "trickled down" from an imaginary higher plateau or status of French presents us with another lop-sided argument about language. To Roman high culture the French language we might romanticise about would have been considered quite vulgar grammar. I am not so sure some British folks would agree with you that any French word trickled down to them, har!

Whitaker, I was reading Erin's links and didn't see your posts as a result. I've just read them. First thank you for taking the time to write such long thoughtful posts. And I applaude you for writing in such a broad coverage of concerns that help to show many sides of this argument. It must have taken quite a few minutes to write them...and your care and effort is something that I wish we saw more often on web boards.

We try to talk about these very huge challenges with certain issues in life...while most of us only spend a few minutes on gathering thoughts. It is no surprise if people don't write explaining in depth why we often come to such misunderstandings or difficult conflict resolutions in such a discussion.

Of course you are correct that Jane was likely posting among a group she felt comfortable with and would give her the benefit of the doubt. I said earlier that I felt bad about my choice of non-neutral wordings and that I did not want to hurt anyone's feelings. But I can see that it is always a good thing to try to repeat such apologies. Again, I did not mean to offend anyone but rather to get into the diverse set of issues with grammar, our culture, politics and trying to remember compassion.

I tend to use a heavy handed style and I sometimes put people off with my passion for analysing aspects that are uncomfortable or "hot topics" with intense word choices. This has it's rewards and it's costs. But I take full responsibility.

I do agree that there are so many situations where proper punctuation and grammar has grave consequences. And I do tend to lean to the area where people who do not have such skills are concerned and my heart goes out to them too. I believe you are quite right that some of the work and experience I have has wired my brain differently. And this is something that was triggered for me in reading the dozens of posts here...

I don't think anyone's views in this thread are "wrong"...I believe they reflect, as I said earlier...more about us ourselves as individuals with individual perspectives rather than the topic of grammar itself.

Janes link to an article concludes with The key is not giving up, said SDSU's McClish.

“Becoming a good writer is a lifetime job,” he said. “I'm still working on my writing. I don't think you can learn to write well over the course of one course, or even in a college career.”

Not only does that ring true to me that it takes a lifetime to practice writing skills..but I would add it takes a lifetime to learn how to discuss such topics. The continued posts here in this topic reflect how long it takes for people to listen to each other...think about what each has said and evaluate. We not only need compassion for learning writing and to extend to those who have less skills...but we need compassion in order to be patient during a discussion such as this one with so many variables to consider.


Sometimes people need to make long posts...at the cost of sounding like they are lecturing ( I resemble that remark)...and sometimes not only do we need to give everyone the benefit of the doubt...it might be a good lesson for all the participants here at CR...to try and give even me...the apparently sermon spewing, black sheep of CR a faint consideration.

A discussion like this benefits from all views even those that disagree with each other.

Most peoples brains are wired to think differently in ways that suit each individual depending on the experiences and attitudes. I am guilty of perhaps being a little to hard on those who get bothered by grammar without qualifying their opinions...but I'm willing to work through a discussion...because I believe a subject like literacy and grammar depends on hearing all the voices all the perspectives and experiences.

As I agree that giving Jane the benefit of the doubt is a fair point, I would add that giving everyone the benefit of the doubt is a critical aspect in a group discussion. Even people who have radically or irritating different opinions. Even people who write long posts. And I think most of us know when a red flag topic is on the horizon. I am sure that most of the people who posted about being bothered by poor grammar didn't mean to be offensive either. But..there are some topics which are always going to be "red flag topics". As much as I feel bad for potentially offending anyone in this topic...at the same time it is a red flag topic and so anyone joining should be prepared to butt a few heads in the process of talking and listening to each other. Emotions do tend to get brought into red flag topics. We've had this same discussion here at CR over and over. It has the usual suspects traveling a similar trajectory. It is a well established red flag topic. So a little bit of the responsibility for such a thorny subject lies with the folks who took a stand defending their irritation at poor grammar as well as say dissenters like myself. Yes, I feel bad for possibly offending some people, but surely by now...we know this is one of those topics here at CR that gets peoples feathered riled. I can only feel a little bad about expressing a different opinion when a can of worms has been opened by someone else and when many of the initial posts didn't have a diverse approach to the topic.

Whitaker your words and anecdotes humble me and I am grateful for your time and care.

I enjoyed those articles by Fish, Erin, I especially enjoyed the one written on Aug. 24. The comments were equally fascinating...

Theresa said "I volunteered for tutoring and literacy programs during college and at various times thereafter. We did learn not to sneer at our students' use of language (not that I would have done so in the first place), but we certainly were not taught that we should forego the use of proper grammar ourselves.

Well, your past experience shows. Your thoughts here on language have sometimes been ones I thought were especially sensitive. The outreach programs have changed a lot over the last thirty years and some of the tweaks have focused a lot more on holistic approaches to literacy programs. I didn't say we forgo use of proper grammar. I said it is a part of such outreach programs to respect all forms and levels of grammar, often including slang. I didn't say grammar rules are not taught. I said I believe the heavy emphasis in this thread topic on "good grammar" is lop-sided. It's not entirely healthy or wise. And it is also denying what makes English such a resilient language.

I have a suggestion for you though Theresa. Why not take your fascination with my name change and transfer it to all the other people in the world who change their names. I'm sure you can find lots of married women who you can mock or fixate on who changed their names. You have me confused with some kind of fantasy stemming from what I can't imagine. But I'm a real person here. Since you don't know anything about my family history, or know anyone who knows about my family history...I request you not try to insult my aboriginal heritage with your jokes.

I spent a lot of care finding a school for my daughter to attend. She went to an Ojibway immersion school...just so she could hopefully avoid the kind of pestering about her family beliefs that you foist on me. And take advice from yourself if my correction bothers you, you said "But that does not mean that all correction is evil."

And Andy is on to something with the idea of mistakes. Some languages do evolve...and what we know about them is that languages that assimilate are the strongest. Assimilating slang, short cuts, foibles, flaws, strengths are all part of very strong languages, especially English. The very heart of the English language is that it picks up all kinds of trends and "high" and "low" grammar. It assimilates other languages too! English is massively forgiving it will adopt most anything even mistakes. That is part of the reason it has changed so much since the Middle English of yore.

Andy, your post and thoughts and honesty was really refreshing and a joy to read. Thanks for sharing. I love your anecdote about being corrected as a kid. I totally relate. I had similar experiences. We could be in the middle of telling a story about school or something that happened and then get cut off and corrected. Buzzkill! You're not alone in being bothered or pissed off. I totally relate! Har! Isn't it fun to be a grown up and talk however we feel like and write however we feel like sometimes. How ironic the complaints about lectures are when the grammar police are doling out corrective lectures...and they don't even admit it, ha ha! Ah, a thorny subject indeed. I think a certain lady doth protest too much. :)

Gail, you are an amazing person to say what you just said. I swear...I just got tears in my eyes. I have so much admiration for you right now.

I have one more thing to address though...

Sara said...

for god's sake, Christine Government Name,

how the hell do you know that people here don't already volunteer in literacy programs?

First that is not my exact government name or slave name. It is quite disturbing though that you think that trying to use my slave name would be appropriate or a sign of "one-upmanship" with me or anyone. It reveals a very sad aspect of communication though. It reveals a person who is into playing mindgames. And I won't play mind games. I may be honest and opinionated here with you all...but I will not lose my dignity or play mind games. I am straight shooter. And proud of it.

Second, how do I believe I know that the people in this thread topic haven't done volunteer work for literacy programs? I can answer that.

I've worked in inner city literacy programs on and off for 20 years. With street kids and battered women shelters. One of the first things that volunteers are taught is "sensitivity training". It is dead obvious if some one has taken one of these workshops successfully. There is a language and code of behaviour...just like grammar.

And we are taught to not hold our educations and grammar as something to laud over others...we are taught not to apply a status or class system attitude to language and slang and grammar. We are taught to respect all language...even "poor grammar" instead to focus on the person. On making bonds with each other. We are also taught to analyse negative attitudes and behaviours of judging people and signs and work or anything in the world that has less knowledge of "good grammar", in pop culture, in churches, in working with gangs or displaced persons. We are supposed to be tolerant and kind about mistakes, or poor grammar, in all areas of the world. It isn't just a lesson in tolerance, it is a lesson in how to relate to the world and a philosophy...initiated as a life lesson. Most people who have gone through some of these workshops or volunteered are also the first people to stand up for the "underdog". Or underpriveledged...or with lesser skills in writing. Most of us here are not the underdog. I have made my comments here in general, not to anyone specific, to people who have the opportunity to know better.

It is highly unlikely that anyone who had spent a fair amount of time volunteering with people who had literacy challenges or were grammatically challenged would write about grammar in the sense that has been written here in this discussion.

That s how I know Sara.

I feel that way Carol. . But all I did was disagree with the empahsis on "good grammar" and suggest it says something about us...not the person failing grammar. I was never angry or anything. I just think sometimes it gets into a different terrotory than grammar and reveals how we are politically and our sense of displaying our "intelligence" and "social standing".

I seriously can't believe others aren't laughing about it...but I guess I know more people who can self criticise and then laugh about it later...I feel like I missed something...so yes. We shook hands Carol. I may be a little harsh with my word choices...I'm working onn that...but I still don't think I've pointed out anything that people didn't already know about social status and grammar. Sheesh. (I'm not that scary...I am just very very opinionated...and not afraid to share it...makes me apparently rather unpopular har! I am not proud but apparently I'm some kind of black sheep at CR. ugh.)

I have never name-called anyone. I am feeling bad about having different opinions than others here, but that is part of life.

If anyone wants to e-mail me about this discussion I will happily respond about grammar etc.

I have already had several interesting e-mails since this discussion...e-mails that convinced me I was intuitively feeling something about the subject of class, social status and grammar...so I don't regret it. I have also had several e-mails from people who don't agree with me, e-mails from people who say they are snobs...e-mails from people who say they are tired of hearing about grammar from "grammar police". It seems there are a few folks out there who have strong feelings about this topic. A few who don't want to say anything in public. A few e-mails have expressed that this is a one-sided discussion so they are afraid to voice a dissenting opinion.

Sometimes a group dynamic can prevent peopel from seeing outside that group.

Sure it might bruise some egos...but it is wouldn't hurt to consider taking a little of what I have said here to heart. And it's unbecoming to pretend to be some kind of victims. I haven't said anything that weird or scary. Hardly worth the drama.

Carol peace on you I have no grudge with you or anyone. Maybe you thought I was negative..>I appreciate that and take your words to heart...but I felt some posts here were negative. I usually try to stay a positive person..but I felt there was a lot of negativity here. If you saw a different set of negative energy, from me, well sorry for that. My intent was to point out a negativity I saw here in this discussion. Different strokes for different strokes...and don't you worry I was laughing a lot reading some of the posts here.

I was laughing for most of the time here until people pretend that a difference of opinion is some kind of attack. Thats ridiculous. We're grown ups here...no need to pretend to be tender little flowers. CR is one tough group of readers so they can handle a little tiny criticism... they give a little criticism and they an take take it.

Ruth..I don't see it that way. I hardly think I am the only person who has butted heads with a few people here.

It is true that as a small core group...there may be a strong commraderie amongst the old school CRs here...and they have a lot in common. Therefore it woudl be quite logical if I butted heads with one, it might also butt the head of another...it might also be a difference of opinion of one of their other friends.

I have many dear friends here at CR...and it wasn't much of a surprise to see Andy comment something that I agree with...he and I are after all friends "in real life"...so it makes sense when it comes to ethics or habits of behaviour he and I would be coming at things from a similar area.

I have no doubt that the peopel at CR are a wonderful great nice bunch of people. Some I have met in person and they were and seemed very nice. I am sure Jane is a nice person.

That doesn't mean I am going to agree with everyone all the time.

We disagree Ruth. We disagree...it's not personal.

If I am heavy handed...well I feel Jane and Sara and Ruth as examples have all had their fair share of giving lectures and ranting on thi sweb group. Please don't pretend you all haven't had your moments of lectures about one thing or another.

It's also natural that not everyone on a web board is going to agree or phrse things in the same manner.

I have no idea what most of you are like in real life...but most of you seem like good people.

If I gave some kind of rant that offended say Jane or Gail or someone...I don't want to offend them...but I did think a couple of the posters here could use a wake up call. It's not personal...and sure I elected myself as the one to share a different perspective.

Don't lose sleep over it.

But how about the folks that are really concerned about "good grammar" go and volunteer to tutor some kids. Go and volunteer at a literacy program for homeless kids or families...or with a local church.

If people so worried about getting a sermon from me...why are you bothering to preach to the chorus (we're all word lovers and readers here....) go put your money where your mouth is.

I admire you Sara for speaking out and standing your ground in the anecdotes you shared. An whther you like it or not...I'm doing the same thing with you. And...Ruth and Jane...take note...all I did was stand up for ground I thought you need to consider. Sorry if that offends you. There are no angels at Constant Reader...everyone has had their day where a subject gets under their craw.

Live and let live...stop taking it personally.