Joy H. (of Glens Falls)'s comments (member since Apr 04, 2008)

Joy H. (of Glens Falls)'s comments from the Constant Reader group.

Ruth, thanks for the details on this poem.
I'll add them to my record. I didn't have the old English version ("Sumer Is Icumen In") or the translation. I had first heard of the Ezra Pound's parody of the 13th century "The Cuckoo (song)" at the alt.quotations newsgroup.

Wiki page - "Sumer Is Icumen In":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo_...
Wiki says: "The song was used at the climax of the 1973 film "The Wicker Man".
Also: "The song was used in the 1993 film Shadowlands..."

Wiki page: The following page re "The Cuckoo (song)" gives a list of artists who have performed it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cuckoo_(song)

Pontalba wrote: "We are not patterned to a particular choice, that would imply a certain robotic programming."

Pontalba, perhaps "patterned" is a poor choice of words on my part, but I can't think of a better word because the idea is difficult to explain. Yes, as you suggest, that would imply "programming" but it wouldn't be "robotic". Rather, it would be more of a predisposition. For example, in church I was "programmed" to kneel at certain parts of the mass. In other words, our upbringing indoctrinates us to do certain things at certain times. That's a kind of programming or patterning.

The above may help to explain my thinking.

I know I make choices, but my choices are influenced by so many variables that, at one particular moment in time, I would be able to make only one choice, given the influence of all those variables. That's all I'm trying to say.

All those "influences" are very powerful and they determine our final choice, psychologically. To me that's what "Determinism" means.

The original question here was about chance vs fate. Then we started discussing free will and now the subject of "success" has been introduced. Ed brought up the question of defining success. Good point, Ed.

There are many kinds of success. We each define it in our own way because we each have a different set of values and priorities. Bob Dylan defined it as follows:
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"A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and gets to bed at night, and in between he does what he wants to do." -Bob Dylan
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Pontalba wrote: "You know that's what has always fascinated me about the concept of time travel. Could we, should we change the past if we somehow were able to?"

That IS a "Twilight Zone" thing. LOL What a great program that was. Such imagination.

Here's a question. How would you change your past decisions, if you could, knowing what you know now?

I might not want to change anything now, but I'd like to see a parallel path showing what WOULD have happened if I had made different decisions. It's fun to wonder about these things, as long as we don't run into that old bugaboo, regret.

Pontalba wrote: "I do believe we have free will, but it has to be in context, or within probable parameters so to speak. We have the free will to choose however we wish, whatever our reasoning happens to be, howev..."

But we're patterned to choose the same thing each time, all other things being equal. If we're patterned, how free is that?

Pontalba and Janet, I've always found this to be an interesting subject. It seems that each person sees things in a slightly different way and explaining those ways is very difficult. There will always be persons who believe in Free Will and there will be others who don't see it that way.

The problem, as I see it, is this: If we went back in our lives, we would probably make the same decisions again (all other things being equal). Can a parallel be drawn to a chemical reaction... when one substance combines in a certain way with another, there will always be the same reaction. The chemicals aren't free to do anything they want. Is it the same with people? Given exactly the same circumstances, backgrounds, and genes, wouldn't two people do exactly the same thing? How free is that? That's what confuses me.

Sherry wrote: "It's not in our CR archives. Click on the book icon itself. Down the page a bit is a section called "Discuss this book." There are only two discussions showing, but go to "More Topics." There are f..."

Ah, I followed your instructions, navigated, and found it!

I always forget to click on "More Topics" or "More" anything! LOL

Thanks a million, Sherry!

Janet wrote: "Joy, I think my own personal philosophy is similar to what you stated. Events happen which are beyond our control but our actions in response are where choice comes in. An answer to the quote you p..."

Or as Nehru put it:
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"Life is like a game of cards. The hand that is dealt you is determinism; the way you play it is free will." -Jawaharlal Nehru
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HOWEVER, IMO, even the way we play the hand is determined by our past experiences and environment. We are not as free in our choices as we think.

Sherry wrote: "Here it is, Joy.
http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/9735-constant-reader"

Thanks, Sherry. I'll bookmark that page.
How would I have navigated to it?
Was it in the archives?
I've tried searching and navigating, but couldn't find it.

Ruth wrote: "Franny, check out the CR discussion of the book, down below under the book icon on our bookshelves."

Ruth, I couldn't find the CR book discussion of the Oscar Wao book. Can you help me?

Our local library book group read it last month and I'm still trying to finish the book. I'd like to read the CR discussion.

I believe that everything that happens in life is by chance, but is influenced by the events which came before. For example, if you prepare for an exam, your chances of succeeding are much greater than if you didn't prepare.

This brings me to mention the following:
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"Determinism is the philosophical proposition that every event, including human cognition, decision and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences."
FROM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Determinism
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"My dad wonders why I choose to be like this, but the truth is, you have no choice... Telling me I can do anything I want is like pulling the plug out of the bath and then telling the water it can go anywhere it wants. Try it, and see what happens."
-said by the female character named "Jess",_A Long Way Down_, p. 209, by Nick Hornby (2005)
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"She only believes that circumstance
Has gone against us every one,
That by blind forces we were driven."
From poem: "The Strain of Mercy" by Fred Chappell
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Thank you, Al. I saw no mention at Wiki either.

Did Henry James' novel, _The Wings of the Dove_ (1902), win any prizes or awards?

I've searched in vain on the Net for the answer to my question. Is there a website which gives this information?

Ruth wrote: "Hmm. I wonder if I could put these to use somehow in my visual poetry."

Ruth, I was thinking about you and your visual poetry when I posted that link.

Glad the two Sherry's liked the web site. I DID get lost in there for a while! (lol)

The following website may appeal to folks who are interested in old books: ====>
http://www.fromoldbooks.org/

The web site provides:
"Scanned Images, Engravings and Pictures From Old Books".
"The images are public domain (copyright-free, out of copyright) unless otherwise noted..."

Here's the "about" page: ====>
http://www.fromoldbooks.org/about.html

Excerpt from the web site:
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"Over 2,400 high-resolution free images scanned from more than 160 different old or rare books, with extracts! Remains of Ruined Castles, Deserted Abbeys, Old Manor Houses, mansions and stately homes; also engravings, woodcuts and pictures of Old England and Wales; symbols, photographs and clip-art, Pictures of old books, and much more, stock images scanned from old books, leather-bound books and musty dusty books, (scanned) by Liam Quin."
====================================================

Here's a sample picture, "scanned from the Chatterbox Annual from 1916".
(Chatterbox was a magazine for boys.):

"The children are holding books; perhaps it is a reading lesson..."

Above picture found at: ====>
http://www.fromoldbooks.org/Chatterbox-1...

Below is a link to the resume of the owner of the website, Liam Quin: ====>
http://www.holoweb.net/~liam/cv/

I couldn't resist posting the cartoon below.
I came across it while searching for images representing the "empty nest".
(It seems a perfect accompaniment to Linda Pastan's poem which Ruth posted above.)
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You can catch up on all the Charlie Rose/John Updike interviews here: ====>
http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/43...

You can catch up on all the Charlie Rose/John Updike interviews here: ====>

http://www.charlierose.com/guest/view/43...

PS-I explored the word "inchoate" further (for my own benefit):
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Definition of inchoate:
1. newly developing or partially formulated;
2. lacking structure or organization
Synonyms: developing, rudimentary, forming, unfinished, chaotic
Antonyms: complete, finished

Tips: Inchoate comes from the Latin inchoare, "to begin."
Think of something that has begun, but is far from complete.

Usage Examples:
An inchoate idea began to form in the back of her mind, but she knew she would have to go over it in more detail and refine it before telling anyone else. (developing)

They had a few reservations and inchoate doubts about the new president's ability to build democracy in his country. (forming, developing)

When it comes to Spanish, I have a child's inchoate understanding of the language. (rudimentary, developing)

All of my businesses started as inchoate ideas that grew into viable business plans. (rudimentary, developing, forming)
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From: http://vocabulary-vocabulary.com/diction...

Andy wrote: "Joy, I had to look up inchoate, but I agree that fiction is the place for inchoate thoughts. Otherwise, the author could have just written an essay."

Andy, I think "inchoate" is such a handy word. In a post I just wrote at the John Updike topic, I quoted him using the word "inkling". I think an "inkling" is like an inchoate thought.

An inchoate thought is an imperfectly formed or vague thought. So if I had a vague thought in my head and a writer expressed the thought more clearly for me, I would be grateful.

In that sense, an inchoate thought doesn't have to be limited to the fiction area. We can have inchoate thoughts about anything... politics included.

Beej wrote: "Joy, thanks for the links to the interviews."

YW, Beej. What stands out for me in the interviews is Updike's upbeat personality... the fact that he looks so comfortable within himself. He speaks with such a quick wry wit. He looks like a man who enjoys life.

I enjoyed reading the following in his obituary:
"I would write ads for deodorants or labels for catsup bottles, if I had to," he told The Paris Review in 1967. "The miracle of turning inklings into thoughts and thoughts into words and words into metal and print and ink never palls for me."
Above quote is from: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/books/...

"...turning inklings into thoughts..."
Isn't that a terrific way to put it!