R.C.'s comments (member since Nov 15, 2008)

R.C.'s comments from the Faith and Spirituality group.

This seems apropos:

http://www.atheistcartoons.com/?attachme...

Let me know how your experiment works out.


Nope, No results here either, but maybe God does not like being tested.

By the way Jerry, in light of your comment:


You know that I defend your right to your opinion, but this isn't "Debate Religion". It's "Faith and Spirituality


Here is the criteria upon with the "Faith and Spirituality" group was created:


Throughout history, people have justified horrific acts on the basis of faith-- theirs is right and everyone else's has to be wiped out. This group will discuss the issue of faith in literature and in the real world, what is right and what is wrong.


So when you say:


If you and RGB don't believe in God and are so secular, then why are you guys here?


It is because we are fulfilling the purpose of the group.

Or maybe you think Christian own the words "Faith and Spirituality".

Comparing Christians to the KKK, really?


Oh, sorry. The Klansmen were all Jews I suppose. But of course, I was not comparing all Christians to the KKK, but the actions of one "Christian".


You keep blaming Christians for acts committed by insane people that couldn't possibly be following the faith or they wouldn't have committed those acts


Your "no true Scotsmen" response shows you want to avoid the issues.

Your jumping to the extreme by implying I don't think any Christians capable of good shows you want to avoid the issues.

Your jumping to the extreme by implying I believe religion is to blame for all the evil in the world shows you want to avoid the issues.

These are all strawmen you are erecting to avoid the issues.

Why do you want to avoid the issue Jerry? Why are you embarrassed by your own words and religious beliefs?

Why do you have to manufacture a history of Israel?

It is my belief that a faith built on mis-truths and avoiding the issues cannot be a very strong faith at all.

Why are you afraid to confront the problems of your own faith?

I welcome all criticisms of my "faith", if based in objective fact and not in the subjective judgments of an invisible sky being. Is my "faith" stronger that yours?

The sins you stated such as being gay, divorce, or adultery are all forgivable sins. No rocks needed.


What an admirable, progressive attitude! Where do the gay people line up to apologize and ask forgiveness? I'm sure they will be thrilled the rock throwing has stopped.

In my world view (but remember, I am the one whose knowledge has come at the expense of a heart), the gay people are the one's owed an apology, for the discrimination and organized extermination of the past and present.

But hey, that's just me, the atheist, who lacks God's moral compass to show me the way.

Jerry --

Oh I don't know. Maybe it is because religion is one long history of raping orphans and taking away civil rights, and killing innocent doctors in their own church.

That was all in the last month only.

Contrition should be your message of the day, Jerry, not complaints about being shown up for your lack of knowledge.

Religion constantly changes facts to fit their perverted fictional justifications for bigotry and prejudice, hiding in their churches to promote their propaganda. But the internet is a public forum. The person who formed their own group did so so they could rehearse their prejudices, like a KKK clan meeting, away from the light of rationality and objective truth.

I think your concerns should be that the Christians in your own State have now rolled back the clock 50 years, and returned "separate but equal" to our culture.

But you are more concerned with "prove their isn't a God arguments" aren't you? You are more concerned that an atheist can make such short work of your very best arguments, aren't you?

Get use to it Jerry. If you want to use the internet to promote your nonsense, like claiming to present an objective history of Israel that is really religious propaganda, you will be faced with constant and unceasing factual knowledge from the non-indoctrinated.

How come no one ever invokes a God that gave all humans the earth equally, leaving local divisions to our human developed legal systems?

This excludes life forms from other star systems of course.

The Zionist movement started buying land and settling Jews in Palestine, beginning in 1870. At the end of World War I, on November 2, 1917, the British produced the Balfour Declaration to create a Jewish homeland consisting of the area now occupied by Israel and Jordan. Out of what was the Ottoman Empire, Britain and France carved up the Middle East and created the countries and boundaries of Kuwait, Iraq, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and many other countries. In 1920 in San Remo, Italy, these boundaries were ratified by the nations in attendance of the San Remo Conference. If the country of Israel's right to exist is in doubt today, then so, too, is every one of the rest of these countries created at this same time by the same world powers.


This is a gross conflation of different events. Actually, is an outright misrepresentation of the truth.

The treaty of Balfour stated that "the British government "view[ed:] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Israel formed over the objections of Britain, with a massive illegal immigration.

The Jews purchased land, and then declared a new country on it, an unprecedented and illegal event in the 20th century. I doubt anyone would support it today.

The partitioning of the Ottoman Empire (what was left) was a long process, with World War I as the major driver of the process.

And I agree with rgb, assigning land based on a belief in a particular God is nonsense.

As for human parents punishing their children, it's somewhat rare for a parent to punish a child and then roast him on a barbecue.


Of course no good person punishes a child. They discipline them in order to modify their behavior from good, not bad. They do not impose permanent and eternal damnation, without a chance for change. Ever.

Roger Ebert, the film critic (who has been seriously ill and introspective lately) recently wrote about his family:


...I love them unconditionally, which is the only kind of love worth bothering with.


I agree with that. I wonder why a "good" God would not.

Jerry said:

Nice to see you again R.C., I think. My belief expressed in my post is that God doesn't torment or punish eternally. I think He is more loving than that.


Nice to see you back Jerry. Don't you think the fact that you can so easily reverse the attributes of heaven and hell is excellent proof that they are created by humans not Gods?

Heavens and hells are clearly the kinds of things humans think up, not Gods. They reflect an extension, in good and bad ways of our earthly existence. This is also why they also always contain contradictions (how could a parent find heaven a wonderful place if they spent eternity watching their atheist children being punished in hell?)

Any reality beyond our current one a universe creating God would envision would be far beyond that a human mind could conceive of.

Nathan --

To quote Hank Hill (King of the Hill)

"I don't have an anger problem, I have a stupid problem!"

We may share the same affliction. Maybe I need a book called "Non-Violent Communication with the Clueless"

Kipahni said:

Non-violent Communication. Apply it to your life and prepare to see significant change.

I assume non-violence encompasses more than not using a baseball bat to get your point across.

I have been told I have anger management issues. I still say I have stupid people issues but... can you post a link so I can look it up?

Just to add to mix, how about heuristic knowledge -- things we know without being told?

For instance, I know all objects when dropped, will fall -- even without knowledge of physics. I know also that gravity does not fall. This knowledge is neither objective or subjective (which really means relative in this case).

"What do you think of this interesting process?"

I think the author making this as a gimmick to sell books. Reading the excerpts on the web site given, I see no evidence of insight or deep philosophical truths, just the same stuff that inundates the genre.

Your recommendation is lacking specifics -- why would one want to read this?

Empire Star by Samuel Delaney. If you want an entertaining book that will change your world view in a one day read, this is it.

And if the ending does not make you shed a bittersweet tear, you need to have your circuits checked.

Actually, the original poster maintains a detailed blog, and yes, the "miracle" is totally bogus.

However, we are dealing with a confused young human here who has enough trouble entering adult hood (don't we all!). We should close this thread, it is too personal.

And Eric, tired of you. All complaints and no accountability. And you do not acknowledge apologies, which is very rude.

Kipahni said:

"Religion/Spirituality is what they turn to to explain the unknowables"

I disagree with the cause/effect here. Historically religion has been forced on people by well funded, outside religious organizations, who bargain with food and clean water for conversion. Science and humanism is never given a chance, IMHO because it diminishes control by dictators.

Another way to look at it is to *not* believe you will wake up in morning. Believe as hard as you want.

You will still wake up.

However when one does not believe in God, nothing changes.

That is the difference between belief and reality.

Coyle --

My previous post made a lot of claims, and I don't expect you to have to validate them for me, so as an example (from Antiquities, an academic journal of archeology) I offer the following representative abstract:

"An international team of researchers show how high-precision radiocarbon dating is liberating us from chronological assumptions based on Biblical research. Surface and topographic mapping at the large copper-working site of Khirbat en-Nahas was followed by stratigraphic excavations at an ancient fortress and two metal processing facilities located on the site surface. The results were spectacular. Occupation begins here in the eleventh century BC and the monumental fortress is built in the tenth. If this site can be equated with the rise of the Biblical kingdom of Edom it can now be seen to: have its roots in local Iron Age societies; is considerably earlier than previous scholars assumed; and proves that complex societies existed in Edom long before the influence of Assyrian imperialism was felt in the region from the eighth – sixth centuries BC."

In other words, for a long time, the Bible was the best we had, but it was wrong, and scholars have better knowledge now. It is only referenced in current publications as above.