Malcolm's comments (member since May 27, 2009)

Malcolm's comments from the ¡ POETRY ! group.

Daphne wrote: "An Apple

I ate its slices – Snowy White –
removed from jacket Red,
the sheen of which –
Surreally Bright –
remained in peelings shed.

Within my mouth
Its juice released –
a crunch betwe..."

Delicious.

Amy wrote: "Malcolm,

Your conclusion that "no rhyming poems" have been selected is just false. Before you boast such blatant claims, you need to go back through all of the months and determine if no rhyming ..."

I did as you sugggested Amy and here are the figures for the last nine months:

March - five shortlisted, none rhyming
April - seven shortlisted, none rhyming
May - five shortlisted, none rhyming
June - six shortlisted, none rhyming
July - seven shortlisted, none rhyming
August - five shortlisted, none rhyming
September - eight shortlisted, none rhyming
October - six shortlisted, none rhyming
November - nine shortlisted, none rhyming.

Please correct me if I am wrong. Maybe I don't know what a rhyme is...

Nine months - fully justifying my use of the phrase "month after month after month" - and not a single rhyming poem shortlisted from a total of 58.

There is something very wrong here.

I am even more troubled now to be accused of bullying, simply for drawing attention to this.

Let me just be clear: non-rhyming poetry made me a fan of poerty many years ago. I currently prefer to write and read rhyming poetry myself - but not to the exclusion of other forms. What I seek here is balance - nothing more.

Jé wrote: "You are right in one thing, my intention is not to divide. It is to solve a problem.

Because a rhyming poem does not exist in the final poems does not mean that there is a policy of exclusion. Tha..."

I know there is not a conscious policy excluding rhyming poems Jé, which is why I was careful to say "what amounts to a policy".

My bias - if I have one - is in favor or not having a bias.

What the Poetry Group is failing to fulfill - though perhaps it never explicitly assumed responsibility for doing so - is to provide the opportunity for writers to learn from each other and this failure is particularly notable in relation to the competition which appears to say, month after month, none of the rhyming poems that have been submitted are of as high a quality as the non-rhyming poems. And it appears to say this without any explanation from which we might learn.

For those confused by the lack of representation of rhymming poetry in the competition shortlists (month after month after month) it would be good to understand what it is that makes the shortlisted poems worthy of such a status.

"It should be included because it is good." tells the learner nothing...

All we are left with is the message from the bias - of statistical significance - for non-rhyming that "rhyming poetry has no place here - no matter how good it is."

Jé wrote: "Gregory and David, could you please start a poetry competition here on Goodreads for rhymed verse only? I promise you that those who write free verse will not be offended if they don't make the fin..."

The point continues to be missed Jé.

If "Rhyming verse and free verse are merely two of the poetries that the big umbrella of poetry covers." then that should be represented here, in the existing poetry competition and any suggestion to start a competition "for rhymed verse only" would expand the already existing rift to which I and others are trying to draw everyone's attention. This rift has been caused by what amounts to a policy of exclusion, not the passionate reaction that has followed the manifestation of that policy.

I know you don't intend such a meaning, but the subtext of your suggestion says "people who want rhyme should go somewhere else."

Andrew wrote: "Gregory,

You're making a false distinction. A poem isn't good because it rhymes and it isn't bad because it doesn't. There are numerous qualities that make a poem good or bad (including subjective..."

"Poetry is constantly reinventing itself."

Now what on earth does that mean Andrew?

Guns don't kill people; people kill people.

The real issue here is not "to rhyme or not to rhyme" or whether any form, in itself, makes a poem good or bad, but rather the extreme imbalance that exists both in the poems shortlisted for the competition (month after month after month) and in the attitudes of those on the list who give every indication of being incapable of writing good rhyming poetry (a recognised form after all) and must therefore deflect attention from their little secret in the safe and traditional manner: attack (or suppress) something else...

As a conseqence (similar examples of which litter history), the (re)invention of which you speak - which should be continuous, becomes impossible - especially if all those who write rhyming poetry are dismissed, by reflex, as "third rate neo-formalists"

Erica and Greg

You two seem to be coming closer and closer to defining the purpose of poetry - mainly by not saying things than by saying them. The implications of what you've both said - in my interpretation - is that poetry is, like all expressions in language, a form of communication. What tends to be neglected, is the fact that poems are often a communication of one part of ourselves with another. In such a case, the 'publishing' (such as here) of such poetry amounts to an announcement "This is me communicating with myself. Make of it what you will."

I find that most poems published here fall into this category.

Therefore, the question of whether a poem is understood or understandable begs a further question: "Who is it for?" "To who's understanding is it addressed?"

All my own poetry has been written for an audience of two: myself and the person who inspired them. Though this limits them in relation to how complete an understanding someone else may achieve, there is always a chance that particular phrasings or ideas will resonate with others - especially others who are in touch with their equivalent of the depths from which the poems emerged in me.

On the other hand, if a poem is intended to be a form of communication with others or just another, lack of clarity is completely counterproductive and though a particular phrase (rhyming or otherwise) might evoke emotional responses in the author, it may mean very little to anyone else.

But what does 'mean' mean?

Matt wrote: ""RHYME - synonym POETRY, antonym PROSE"

Are you kdding? This is such nonsense, it's not even worth arguing with.

So many laughably clueless comments in these discussions...."

If the comments are clueless Matt, then what is necessary are clues. Yes?

Perhaps it's time for poets to write commentaries on their poems so that the clueless can understand.

Rainbow

At first a distant glowing,
At the edge of vision, growing;
While clouds disperse and shadows fly,
Her rising fills this morning sky
With light that leaves my surface thrilled
And depths illumination-filled.

Her arc ascending through my day,
Across this sky she makes her way:
A restless star in constant view,
A blaze of yellow against my blue.

Where heat of day meets coolest dawn,
A moving breath, a breeze, is born,
So dew returns to moisten air
And separate her colours there.

Jerin1701 wrote: "by the way, master Malcolm , do you also know the works of Du Fu?
"

This one speaks volumes to me Jerin:

A Woman of Quality
Matchless in breeding and beauty,
a fine lady has taken refuge
in this forsaken valley.
She is of good family, she says,
but her fortune has withered away;
now she lives as the grass and trees.
When the heartlands fell to the rebels
her brothers were put to death;
birth and position availed nothing--
she was not even allowed
to bring home their bones for burial.
The world turns quickly against
those who have had their day--
fortune is a lamp-flame
flickering in the wind.
Her husband is a fickle fellow
who has a lovely new woman.
Even the vetch-tree is more constant,
folding its leaves every dusk,
and mandarin ducks
always sleep with their mates.
But he has eyes only
for his new woman's smile,
and his ears are deaf
to his first wife's weeping.
High in the mountains
spring water is clear as truth,
but when it reaches the lowlands
it is muddied with rumor.
Her serving-maid returns
from selling her pearls;
she drags a creeper over
to cover holes in the roof.
The flowers the lady picks
are not for her hair,
and the handfuls of cypress
are a bitter stay against hunger.
Her pretty blue sleeves
are too thin for the cold;
as evening falls
she leans on the tall bamboo.

Du Fu (tr. David Lunde)

Such delicate attention - to detail of such delicacy:

"Her hair will be mist-scented, her jade-white
Arms chilled in its light."

and

"Her pretty blue sleeves
are too thin for the cold;"

Jerin1701 wrote: "Forgive me master Malcolm , but I do not agree..... For whence poetry sparks in me, it is but a mere expression of my love....My love I say , and what is my love but my universe (or multiverse) ..a..."

Yes Jerin, I completely agree with you - except perhaps in your use of the word 'my'.

A colleague of Rumi's says it best:

The Special Love

As the full moon appears from the night, so appears
her face amid the tresses.

From sorrow comes the perception of her: the eyes
crying on the cheek; like the black narcissus
shedding tears upon a rose.

Mere beauties are silenced: her fair quality is
overwhelming.
Even to think of her harms her subtlety (thought is
too coarse a thing to perceive her). If this be
so, how can she correctly be seen by such a clumsy
organ as the eye?

Her fleeting wonder eludes thought.
She is beyond the spectrum of sight.
When description tried to explain her, she overcame it.
Whenever such an attempt is made, description is
put to flight.

Because it is trying to circumscribe.
If someone seeking her lowers his aspirations (to
feel in terms of ordinary love),
there are always others who will not do so.

Ibn El-Arabi

Jerin1701 wrote: "Madam Ruth, forgive Lil'Jean's comments above,, I believe you have the wisdom for that,,, this is just a natural flow in history,,,,,, new generations overthrows the old, that is why I w..."

Jerin, do you really think the little town of Goodreads is big enough for more than one troubador - or should I say three...?

Jim wrote: "Malcolm wrote: "I too, am a little disturbed by this apparent downplaying of the process of writing poetry with lines that rhyme. I can understand people's doubt about ending a line in a rhymm 'jus..."

Thanks Jim, this is really helpful. It particularly makes me realise the extent to which my purpose in writing poerty needs to made more explicit. I do not write poetry to make money - which is just as well as my output tends to be on average about one per year. My poems are triggered by very specific inspirations and the resulting poem is therefore adressed to the person who provided the inspiraton. In many respects, that person writes the poem in me. In this context, a poem is therefore primarily a communication, and only accidentally a 'work of art'. Such poems can be evaluated therefore, not as art, but simply by reference to how effective they are as interpersonal communications.

Malcolm

I too, am a little disturbed by this apparent downplaying of the process of writing poetry with lines that rhyme. I can understand people's doubt about ending a line in a rhymm 'just for the sake of it' and without, at the same time taking account of what meaning is conveyed by the other words in the line and their precise arrangement. An earlier comment - I think it might have been Jim's - acknowledged the effort and study involved in writing poetry - any kind of poetry - well.
Can I offer the following poem that I wrote when I was quite young, to allow people to comment on what specifically is wrong with it? In that way perhaps those of us who are struggling might become clearer about the function of rhyme and the extent to which it allows us (forces us perhaps) to look for, and if we are fortunate or persistent, uncover evidence of realtionships that might otherwise remain hidden.

---------------------------------------------

SWEET LADY DRAGON

Sweet Lady Dragon, you guard your treasure well,
Safe above the world in that high place where you dwell;
A challenge to all heroes, from near and from far -
The treasure that you guard is the treasure that you are.

Though many of the bravest approach your mountain realm,
The power of your presence is sure to overwhelm
All but the most determined, whose quest has made him wise
Enough to answer the riddle you pose and claim the golden prize.

Like others far more brave than he, he’d willingly risk death;
But trembles when he comes in range of your warm and fragrant breath;
Then suddenly feels more confident when remembering the dove,
Who whispered softly to him that the answer’s always love.

---------------------------------------------

Malcolm

Jerin1701 wrote: "..Bound to fail those who hail they've reach the goal
..........Therefore let the ineffable in soul........."

Rumi by any chance Jerin?

Jim wrote: "Hi Ivy,

I hate to jump into this conversation because there are a lot of people in this group who believe anything that rhymes is poetry or that anyone who claims to be a poet therefore is one. ..."

Sorry Jim, if feeling something from reading a particular set of words defines poetry then I, like many other people have probably read many novel length 'poems'.

I am in complete agreement with you about the use of "imagery, metaphor, alliteration, rhythm, slant rhyme, etc." and I think that poetry should have these - particularly metaphor - in abundance; but what defines these as poetic tools rather than writing tools? What is it, for example, that you think happens to someone who writes a poem (and I dont mean 'a Poet') that does not happen to that same person when they write prose? Is it, as you seem to suggest, simply that one is "hard"?

Malcolm

Ivy wrote: "But why are they prose poems? According to the dictionary, prose is very different from poetry. The definition clearly stated: "as distinguished from poetry or verse". Saying "prose poetry" appe..."

A further thought Ivy. The Description for this group is "No pretensions: just poetry". Perhaps there is a need to have a 'Rhyming Poetry Group' as distinct from the 'Non-rhyming Poems and Prose Poems Group" How absurd would that be...?

Malcolm

Ivy wrote: "But why are they prose poems? According to the dictionary, prose is very different from poetry. The definition clearly stated: "as distinguished from poetry or verse". Saying "prose poetry" appe..."

I completely agree Ivy. Pressing Enter at the arbitrary end of a string of text - sometimes, it seems, simply make the lines the same length - does not make prose into prose poetry.

An articulate person could actually think in what some are calling prose poems.

I am greatly saddened by Ruth's comment - message 9 -to the effect that "because most people using them [rhymes:] today are writing amateurish poetry of dubious quality" Does it therefore become necessary to write non-rhyming poetry to avoid being quickly labelled amateurish? What does rhyming poetry have to have to make it 'professional' I wonder? Prehaps Ruth can answer this one.

Malcolm

How Green Are Your Eyes?

How green are your eyes?
No turquoise, tourmaline or aquamarine:
This green…
…But the green of the skies:
Of another world -
In a milk-white galaxy swirled.
Where sunlight scintillates the surface of the seas,
As it ripples with the breathing of a menthol breeze.
Where the rain falls gently from the chlorophyll skies
And grass grows greener as the earth softly sighs.
Where olivine evening follows emerald afternoon
And mint cotton candy clouds are silvered by the moon.
And to where, when all else dies,
Imagination flies
Across your space and time,
To seek out one more rhyme,
And find that everywhere is you
And everywhen is too.