Ivy's comments (member since Jan 20, 2009)

Ivy's comments from the ¡ POETRY ! group.

Meg, I believe that only a certain person/group of people select the finalists. We all get to vote on the few selected, so I would say that there is a bias somewhere. I do agree that it is very difficult to write a decent rhyming poem. That's one of the smaller reasons I dislike prose; it seems like poets have decided to take it easy, while claiming they've studied poetry for years. I do not think that how long you've studied in a big school makes a poet. It's the love of the challenge.

Neil, no matter how much I would like to agree with Gabrielle, and say that the "clique feeling" will disappear after a time, I cannot do so. When I joined last January, I was expecting a group of poetry of all kinds, but in June, I asked a simple question, and a debate about rhyming poetry was sparked. Basically, what I've found, is that the group is a place for the modern "poets". A place for prose poets and their poems which, in my opinion, are not true poetry.

I was recently experimenting with haiku, and I'm entering my favorite:

Flamboyant colors,
Rustling folds of taffeta,
Trendy, with style.

~Ivy J. E.

Marion, I'm sorry for misunderstanding you. I think it was the way you said that the people here have studied it in school, that made it sound like you didn't want to read it now that you're out of school. But I think I see what you mean now.
That's one of my biggest peeves about the "prose poem": that it is obviously an oxymoron. I am happy to see that we agree!

Marion, are you saying you wouldn't WANT poetry like that being posted in the group?

Chris, I think that it is wonderful that you would like to bring those poets' works into this group! Many of my favorites are among them (Carrol, Wordsworth, Whitman, and others). I'm one of those "rhythm and rhyme" people. I'm not sure how you feel about the "modern poets" and the creation called a "prose poem", but I know that I would be very excited to see you bringing the poetry you mentioned into this group.

My goodness! Perhaps the "intelligent poets" should try harder to see what the rhyme-lovers are saying!!

Rhyming poetry is not just beautiful words. The artists must work harder than ever to put rhyme in, and to have the right amount of syllables in a line. In haiku, you have a certain amount of syllables per line. Rhyming poems take that to another level, a higher level. They include rhymes also.

To me, Ruth and Jim, it seems that you are trying to pound the rhyme OUT of poems. Trying to make people to write that stuff you call prose poetry. That's prose, my friends, not poetry. You could take a paragraph out of a beautifully written novel and call it a poem now (there's nothing wrong with beauty of words like that, but that's not a poem).

Poetry is losing it's true name...

Anyone interested in starting a group called "Preservers of Poetry with Rhythm and Rhyme"? LOL!

Thank you everyone, for your kind comments regarding my poem! I see that most of you liked the repetition, and I believe that I included that because it still gives the feel of the poems I really love--ones with rhyme and meter.

Keep writing,

Ivy J. E.

Donna, I love the way you had end-rhymes, plus the rhymes inside. I wish I could vote more than once! Keep writing poetry!

Promise and a Prayer has my vote! A beautiful, well written poem!

Helena wrote: "Ivy wrote: "Wow!! I'm very happy to see more rhyming poetry being posted. Beautiful! Here's mine:

Poetry

What has poetry come to these days?
Just a mess of words; a jumbled haze.
Poetry i..."

Thank you, Helena. :)


Becca, I love your entry; it's beautiful!

Thank you for the comments on my poem back there. :) And I am so happy that more people have been submitting rhyming poetry! Keep it up!

Wow!! I'm very happy to see more rhyming poetry being posted. Beautiful! Here's mine:

Poetry

What has poetry come to these days?
Just a mess of words; a jumbled haze.
Poetry isn’t what it was long ago,
A rhyming beauty, words that flow.

What is it now, in this ignorant time?
Words without movement, words without rhyme.
Just a casual thought that came to mind,
With fancy expressions and words entwined.

Beautiful words, yet lost of meaning,
A crazy mess, but poetic seeming.
A style of poem, that’s called a prose,
Has lost the splendor of a poem that flows.

A short little story, with poetic feel,
Without the rhyme that gives appeal.
No meter exists in poems like this,
Has readers wondering what’s amiss.

Poets have lost their loving spark,
And they’re making their poetry bare and stark.
Their creativity has been lost,
Their poems now as cold as a fresh new frost.

Poets now seem like they no longer try,
Poems only need praise from the critic’s eye.
Their poems are not written for people to read,
Only for the poet to take the winning lead.

We can only hope that the poems of old,
Will be thought of always as precious gold.
May poets be inspired by those workings of zeal,
Such heavenly poetry, so beautifully unreal.

~Ivy J. E.

Thanks, Ruth. :) And I'll definitely look at the ends of the lines and see what I should change.

Since I've been on the side for rhyming poetry with meter, I decided that I should at least TRY to write a prose poem or something somewhat similar. Some of you prose poem poets, please tell me how it is (I'm not even sure if it's quite a prose poem).

Wandering across that
crystal pane of glass.
The clear liquid runs
in uneven itinerant
paths, across that pane
of glass. It meanders
back and forth. Roving
forth and back again.
Attractive against the
sun that reflects on that
pane of glass. Shines with
gleam and glints that sparkle
that sheet of glass. The
liquid continues it’s
passage, traveling down
that pane of glass. Twisting
turning, twining. Across
that pane of glass.

Written by Ivy J. E.

I'm not about to leave this debate before I address a few things. It's going to be a spatter of this and that.

First of all: Ruth, it seems to me that you think I'm very stupid. Quite a few posts ago, you were talking about what to do or what not do when writing good poetry. You post seemed to say that I had no idea of what some of these poem components were. Like alliteration, assonance, metaphor, symbolism, irony, simile, and others. Though I haven't studied poetry in depth, I have learned about poetry. I've also been writing it for many years.
Michael, I would also like to say I don't exactly refer to myself as a poet. And I do not think I'm incredibly wise either and I've never said my poetry is "great". Ruth and Jim, however much they say they're still learning, are terribly arrogant. One of them, in past posts, said that someone who had poetry written in a similar style of the older poets would ever get published. That makes me laugh, since there are people who do have poetry like that published.

Also, I do not agree that you need to have an "education" to write good poetry. That's like saying you need to be a professional cook before you can make good food.

Ruth, I'm answering to your post 234: I have already said this, why do I have to say it again??? Okay, I love rhyme, but a good meter is what a poem needs. Even if there aren't end rhymes, you still have the nice smooth flow of a POEM.

Harley, I know that if I was talking to these people face-to-face, my ideas and "defending attitude" wouldn't be much different. But isn't that a good quality for a poet? Or any writer in general? The way of getting your feelings transferred to words....

All right, Jim... When did I ever say that I'm not going to listen to any help on improving my writing? But... if you're defining "help" as telling someone they can't use rhyme, and they have to stick to the "new age of writing", then I don't want it. If it's going to be productive criticism, bring it on.
And I have to say, I did really like your poem, "Galloping a Dream". But what I meant when I asked, "Where's yours?", I meant one with a rhyme scheme, one like you asked Lil Jean and I to write. In fact, it would be very neat to see one from Ruth, too. Since you two are published poets, who have studied much poetry, I figured it wouldn't be that difficult for you to write one. Unless, of course the reason you write prose is because you think it's 'too difficult to write good poetry with end rhyme'. Truthfully, I would really like to see a poem with rhyme from both of you.

Ruth, if we're going to make everything so the critics are happy, our world is going to be pretty boring. And no, the buildings are very beautiful, containing similar principles. Also, I asked if rhythm and meter were nearly the same, not rhyme and meter. But that article looks very helpful; I will read it. One thing: I was sort of trying to have a few "short" sentences in my poem. And that's not one of my good ones; that's what I wrote for Jim's challenge.

James, that was a very thought-provoking post. It seems to me also, that most poets aren't trying to write poetry for people to enjoy. They're writing to impress the "critics"...


Okay, I emailed a few people (for a sort of survey), and gave them two poem excerpts (prose poem, and a more traditional poem). The poems were:

From The Mushroom, by Robert Bly:

"This white mushroom comes up through the duffy
lith on a granite cliff, in a crack that ice has widened.
The most delicate light tan, it has the texture of a rubber
ball left in the sun too long. To the fingers it feels a
little like the tough heel of a foot."

From Lochinvar, by Sir Walter Scott:

"O young Lochinvar is come out of the west,
Through all the wide Border his steed was the best;
And save his good broadsword he weapons had none,
He rode all unarm'd, and he rode all alone.
So faithful in love, and so dauntless in war,
There never was knight like the young Lochinvar.
He staid not for brake, and he stopp'd not for stone,
He swam the Eske river where ford there was none;
But ere he alighted at Netherby gate,
The bride had consented, the gallant came late:
For a laggard in love, and a dastard in war,
Was to wed the fair Ellen of brave Lochinvar."

So, without sharing my opinion, I asked which they would rather read, or thought more poetic. I asked ten people, and I've received 7 responses. Six of those people said they would rather read 'Lochinvar'. I think I can come to a conclusion that, poetry is held in low esteem in the U.S. for what it has become.

I know this discussion is now dying down, but Jim, here's my little rhyme I wrote:

"I shall tarry not,
For it is late,
And the monstrous lot
Could seal my fate.
For if I fall into the hands
Of those monsters that prowl the streets,
I’d have to listen to their demands,
Or my bloody fate I’d meet.
They slink down the streets so still,
As if they were a predator.
If I don’t hurry, catch me they will,
And I shall be one victim more.
So let me leave, I say farewell.
Will I survive? None can tell."

It is kind of random; the first lines just popped into my head, like what usually happens, and the rest just flowed out after that. Now, Jim, where's yours? I would love to see one written by such a wonderful poet, such as yourself... I wasn't quite sure, at first, why you asked Lil Jean and myself to write one; why not you and Ruth? Anyway, I'm looking forward to seeing yours, Jim. By the way, impressive thoughts on meter. But I have to ask, aren't rhythm and meter nearly the same in a poem? They at least work together, don't they?

Ruth, I just thought of something. You had been saying how we can learn from the old poets, but not write like them. I still believe there is nothing wrong with writing like them. But I just was thinking about my beautiful little city I live in. We have many, many buildings built in the style of ancient Roman architecture. So, are our buildings laughable also? I don't think so.

All right, I believe that I should clarify what my beliefs on poetry are. Okay, I do love rhyme. I wish there was a lot more rhyme in poems. But most important is a steady meter. Meter is what keeps you reading a poem (it pulls you along), and when there's a meter, I can almost hear an end rhyme. Reading the first paragraph of a very descriptive novel and then reading the first stanza of a 'prose poem' would be very similar. Would anyone here like to listen to music without a beat? It is nearly the same as a poem with no meter.
So, though I'm still strong for rhyme, a meter in poetry is a MUST for me. Any thoughts?

Ruth, I have to say that it is very rude to say that people who write in the style of older poets, or paint in the style of older artist have 'laughable' work. That painter that I made reference to was not trying to be an older artist, she was painting in a similar style. Just as I may write in a similar style to the older poets, I'm NOT trying to be a Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. What's wrong with being inspired? There is no law that says we can't write in a similar way as older poets. In fact, weren't you yourself, Ruth, saying that poets break the rules? If there's some rule that says we have to write to go along with age, I'm going to break that rule. And, poetry is written with love, is it not? The poet doesn't write a poem, thinking the whole time, "Oh, I really don't want to write this, but for some reason I am..." The poet chooses to write it, and they don't have to write up to the "standards of this new age".

Another thing: this whole personal taste debate. People should have a personal taste; when there are many different styles of poetry, that's even better! But Lil Jean has a point. It seems like nearly everyone here has the similar taste for "prose poems"...
If some of you "intellectual" poets happen to be saying that we're ignorant, because of our taste for the older poets' works, what about your taste in "prose poems"?

Ruth wrote: "Dear Lil J,
I'm sorry. Apparently you missed my point again. I was not bitching about money. I was agreeing with Jim's remark that hardly anyone makes any money at all from writing poetry. We do..."

Ruth, I wonder WHY poetry is held in such low esteem here. I'm sure that plenty more people would enjoy hearing a poem with a meter, and sometimes rhyme... So either, poets are trying to bore people, or they are just trying to show off their amazing education on 'prose poetry' to the poets of their own level.

Um, Julia, I have to say, plenty of "artwork" HAS changed to much for it's own good in this day and age. Mostly it's what people would think of artists making. Some artist I found while browsing, has, I'm sure, embarrassed some artists. She waxed underwear... Yes, underwear, and bras, and stuck them on piece of wood, added a little paint, and called it artwork...
But there are artists now a days that have similar artwork as older artists. So I'm assuming, Ruth, you would call their artwork 'laughable', since they should be "going along with this new age"?

Lil Jean, I agree with you when you said "I see as a biased nature towards one form of poetry". Ruth, even though this is a new time and age, it doesn't mean we should completely throw away the beautiful and poetic older poetry style. So if someone wants to try and paint like Leonardo da Vinci, and they make a beautiful painting, should we criticize them? Or say, 'Oh, there are different ages to paintings; most paintings are much different now, so yours is not worthy of admiration.'?

I also have to say, I've been very strong for rhyme. I still am. I always will be. But another very important component of good poetry is (ready for this?) a meter. Plenty of the prose I've read has no meter. No meter? Okay, no rhyme is hard for me, but no meter... What would happen if you took the beat out of music? Well, it certainly wouldn't sound very nice. Same goes for a poem without a meter.

I'm getting my act together, and I am planning to submit to the contest next month.

Jerrin, I've liked your posts, some of them rhyme!

Ruth, have you read any older poetry, by the famous poets? I'm really starting to wonder, with you saying that it is amateurish to move words around so they rhyme...

From 'Sea Memories', by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow:

"Is haunting my memory still:
A boys will is the wind's will,..."

From 'Lady Clare', by Alfred Tennyson:

"I trow they did not part in scorn;
Lovers long betroth'd were they;
They two will wed the morrow morn;
God's blessing on the day!"

From 'The Dorchester Giant', by Oliver Wendell Holmes:

"There was a giant in times of old,
A mighty one was he;
He had a wife, but she was a scold,
So he kept her shut in his mammoth fold;
And he had children three."

Those poets are widely known, and look how they moved some of those words around to make it rhyme. They are certainly NOT 'amateurs'. And, there are many, many more poems that have this.
I suppose most of you also thing using "o'er" is a horrible thing too, since it substitutes "over" so that you can fit it into a certain meter.

I have another question: have the people here who write prose poetry actually tried to write a rhyming poem that has the qualities you've deemed a 'must'? If so, I would love to read it.