Zen's comments (member since Dec 08, 2008)

Zen's comments from the SciFi and Fantasy Book Club group.

I don't know, actually, but there appear to be two bad movies:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0249840/
&
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095738/

Nightfall by Isaac Asimov

Apparently the 2000 movie got horrible reviews....

Nice, Adam. Gardeners...

I HATE pulling weeds. I wonder if that means I would be an extremely indifferent dragonrider....

@ Random:

Benden Red, anyone?

No kidding!...I just always thought that was part of the culture. But everyone does seem to drink a lot (with little side effects - I want to learn THAT trick).

Over the course of our discussion, I've noticed that a few people seem to totally dislike this book. I wanted to open this forum for a good bashing conversation on why this book fails to meet our needs as a reader. This is not just for the sake of bashing but to promote some sort of understanding of why so many people love this series while others are disgusted with various aspects.

I will kick it off by saying that I think the book is really out-dated. I just can't enjoy it like I used to. I almost regret being the discussion leader; realizing that I will, from this point forward, probably not recommend DragonFlight to anybody.

Times change, people change, "classics" go in and out of style....so why has this "classic" gone out of style? It was voted as the read of the month! And not many people are actually discussing it - even their memories of it! How bizarre!

Please let's discuss this aspect. Your thoughts?

Robin wrote: "I was much more impressed with the pun then the book. It just seemed kind C+ to me - I was hoping for much more."

Is C+ really so bad? I mean, I've read a lot of C+ books that I thoroughly enjoyed (though I would not read them again). Above average books are like gold flakes that have to be sifted from the sands... but that doesn't mean that the sand isn't beautiful in its own way.

Why were you hoping for "much more"? What is it that was so missing that you could not enjoy the read?

Dana wrote: "Dana wrote: "Part of the point of this beginning of the series is that the world has somehow become a rather messed up feudal patriarchy, and we get to see it work its way out over time. I never got the impression that their relationship was meant to be some high example of perfect love in this society or anything."

Dana - I think this is an interesting comment as related to the rest of the series - so I posted a response to you in the "Dragonriders of Pern" thread. It's a spoiler for those who haven't read the other books, so reader beware! ;)

In a post under the "Lessa section":

Dana wrote: "Part of the point of this beginning of the series is that the world has somehow become a rather messed up feudal patriarchy, and we get to see it work its way out over time. I never got the impression that their relationship was meant to be some high example of perfect love in this society or anything."

Dana, I think this is a very interesting comment - especially considering the dissatisfaction that many people are expressing over Todd McCaffrey's books. His books take place between the time of Lessa and the discovery of AVIS.

I wonder if reader disappointment if his books is magnified by the fact the Pernese life was on the upswing and now, for some reason, we are being dragged back to all the feudalism of the first books?

Food for thought from http://www.bfdblog.com/
... I think some of the comments in this blog explain why I had such a strong reaction to Jora:


1.
Spidey the blogger is upset by how many hateful, anti-fat videos show up on YouTube merely by searching for the word “ugly.”....

2.
Heather said:
In my experience, it’s a lose-lose situation if you’re fat.
If a fat person is having a bad day, or has a bit of an attitude, people automatically assume that she’s miserable because of being fat.
If a fat person has a bubbly and upbeat attitude, people assume that they are overcompansating for the fact that they are fat.
The fact is, fatism is probably one of the last “socially acceptable” prejudices out there. There is little or no tolerance (at least publicly) for calling someone a “darkie” (or nappy headed ho), or a fag (as Don Imus and Isiah Washington will testify). Companies can be sued if they don’t hire enough women or immigrants. But call someone a porker or fat, and the chances are you’ll get away with it.

Catherine wrote: "I've really enjoyed the discussion. I wasn't excited when it was chosen because I was hoping for something new. I originally read the book long ago (and several times since). I didn't realize that ..."


Thank you Cathrine! I was nervous to lead yet another discussion of a book many have already read. Last time I led Wizard's First Rule and, like that re-reading, I find it challenging to pick up something I loved but never thought to read again - especially when reading with a more critical eye.

WOW MB! That's such a great and well-summarized insight! I agree completely and would add that I completely enjoyed Lessa's relationship with F'lar when I was younger and now I do find it to be a little "repulse-ing". However, after some thought, I do not find it completely repulsive....in fact, if there was an S&M reference of even the smallest kind (like fuzzy handcuffs), I, the modern reader, would just chalk it off as sexual preference. How weird is that?

Libby wrote: "I don't think the author meant to make any comment regarding thin women being more productive than larger women."

I don't think so either, but I do think that Jora the only "typecast" in the book. Each of the other characters seemed to have other facets of their personality that rounded out their character. Lytol, for example, gets about as much "face time" in the book as Jora but I came away feeling that he was a much more complicated person.

I like how everyone has different viewpoints about how they see Lessa. Good or bad, if a character can make readers see that many different facets, I think that the author has done a good job; letting the reader enter the world the author has created and letting them think whatever they want about a character.

I've read many books lately where there is no leeway in how you can interpret the actions and thoughts of a character. So, even though I find Lessa uppity, I love her.... because I remember thinking she was the greatest character ever when I first read the book! My, how my opinion has changed!

I kinda of like the flip-flop from fantasy to sci-fi and back again! For me, it shows how societies rise and fall. Makes me think... is Medieval fantasy and we now live in sci-fi...? and how will future generations see us? and what if they are post apocalyptic?

So, what is your final impression? Did you Impress a dragon or did the book fall flat for you?

Has anyone else not picked up on the Jora issue while reading? Had no effect on you?

Also, as I continue reading, I am noticing that although R'gul has some very good management (though maybe not leadership) skills, he is looked down upon by both Lessa and F'lar..... I don't know what I think about it yet, but it seems that by disrespecting R'gul, both Lessa and F'lar are misusing a valuable resource - R'gul could surely have helped in the archives?

Wow... she said "homos"?

Also, I notice that McCaffrey's response was written in 1992. However, Dragonflight was written and published during a time when people could not and did not easily divulge their sexual persuasions. Which leads me back to the question:

Do you think that Dragonflight fostered openness about people of different persuasions? Or was it not so shocking a premise considering this was a sci/fi-fantasy?

I did mean to say the only female dragonrider, thanks for clarifying that.

However, the point that really caught my attention is that Jora is the only character in the book that has all-around bad traits AND she is also fat.

Even R'gul, the "bad" male dragonrider, has some redeeming qualities, despite being old'n'hidebound. In fact many on the dragonriders have both good and bad qualities. Except for Jora.

It seems that Jora's character is very one-dimensional and a total caricature. She could have been written differently and still achieved the same effect...

For crying out loud, F'lar even thinks to himself "...Jora had been disgusting, but when dragons rose in mating flight, the condition of your partner counted for nothing." (pg.153, paperback)

Ouch.

Reading passages like that one, I could almost hear the author endorsing the viewpoint that fat women are less productive than thin women.

Kernos wrote: "Gender equality and sexuality has been discussed ad nauseum among Pern fans and critics. "


Zenia wote: "I also noticed this. Does that make you think that this is a overly-discussed book or topic? Or do you think such discussions foster openness to people of different persuasions?"

AND... speaking of different persuasions:

The attitudes that F'lar and the other dragonriders express about the former Weyrwoman, Jora, are also not very nice.
Jora was fat and therefore slothful, sloppy and uninspiring. That just does not jive with my contemporary soul. After a few mentions of this throughout the book, I wonder if Jora was not just horribly put-upon and depressed.
Imagine being the only woman in a dragonweyr full of men and being known as the ugly, fat one. Sheesh.

Thoughts?

Kernos wrote: "Gender equality and sexuality has been discussed ad nauseum among Pern fans and critics. "


I also noticed this. Does that make you think that this is a overly-discussed book or topic? Or do you think such discussions foster openness to people of different persuasions?