Carolyn's comments
(member since May 07, 2009)
Carolyn's comments from the Wild Things: YA Grown-Up group.
(showing 1-20 of 34)
Another author that moves back and forth between adult and YA books is Ursula K. LeGuin. Besides her famous The Earthsea Trilogy A Wizard of Earthsea; The Tombs of Atuan; The Farthest Shore and her Hainish novels (including The Left Hand of Darkness), she's got an ongoing YA series right now called "Annals of the Western Shore", which begins with Gifts, as well as her already completed Catwings series.
Harry Turtledove is an author of many alternate history adult books, he's got a YA series of time traveling trader families that begins with Gunpowder Empire.
Misty wrote: "It is online, but it's only for followers. Here's the link."
I love your blog's photo/graphic!! cute! = )
Eirin wrote: "I especially loved how Little Red Riding Hood started as a story told by workers in the field to pass the time, containing sex and violence to keep them interested, then being reworked by the Brothers Grimm into this moralizing thing full of plotholes, and then being rewritten again by people like Paulo Coelho, bringing back the clever girl and the violence. Hah, it's so funny!"
Actually, a lot of the Brothers Grimm versions are pretty grim - I think it's the Disney-ification of the fairy tales that dumbs them down.
Have to agree on this one - I don't like the idea of a label on the books, because of the huge potential for misuse of it, as well as the quick marketing boost it gives books that I'd rather not.
Perfect example is all the fuss over this book:
And Tango Makes Three.
Malcolm wrote: "Don't we have to be careful when talking about Shakespeare and Dante as speculative fiction? Surely we have to take into account the fact that these are recently coined terms - the last 150 years or so at a guess - and that people's belief systems in Dante's Italy or Elizabethan England were clouded by religious bias, faith and superstition, which means for them such texts might appear awfully realistic. Just a thought."
Actually, no, I don't think we need to take into account how long ago they were written - because they are still being read today. We continuously classify things as we go along in our lives, as we discover or create a new term, we use it.
Unfortunately, even today, peoples beliefs are still "clouded by religious bias, faith and superstition" - you'll still find people who believe in fairies and demons and angels.
What the masses do or do not believe in doesn't really change the fact that a story about fairies is still a fantasy - it just isn't taught that way. When you ask people how to classify Shakespeare, they'll either put his works into the categories of Literature or Classics (which seems to mean basically that they've been around a long time and are still being read.)
I bring up Dante and Shakespeare mainly to demonstrate that the genre categories of Science Fiction and Fantasy pretty much get short shrift from reviewers and readers in general, and mostly without actually thinking about it.
Dan wrote: "Sounds like an interesting book, what is the title?"
Lydia, please correct me if I'm wrong, but that sounds like Alternate Presidents, edited by Mike Resnick. It's part of a series - Alternate Tyrants, Alternate Kennedys, Alternate Warriors, Alternate Outlaws, etc.
If you enjoy those kinds of alternate history stories, another good series is by Harry Turtledove - Alternate Generals.
Lydia wrote: "Question: Has anyone found a SFF YA/Adult book that has gay characters?"
There are plenty of them - one of the things I enjoy about science fiction is gender discussions within a novel's setting.
So, I guess my question before naming some is, are you looking for novels where the character is gay, but that's just ancillary to the story, or are you looking for books that pivot around gender and/or gender determination?
Malcolm wrote: "While I tend to agree with you, BunWat, - that the term speculative fiction makes a neat umbrella for a whole range of sub-genres - I do find that, like Lydia, these terms can be confusing and misleading. Where does one place a book like Cormac McCarthy's The Road? It's set in a short-range dystopian future in which a father and child struggle to survive. This means that it could be labelled sci-fi? But a lot of readers might describe it as literature, which is a genre in itself I suppose..."
I have to agree with BunWat on this - classifying something as 'literary' is a statement of it's quality, not it's topic. Ursula K. LeGuin's The Left Hand of Darkness is pretty universally acknowledged to be 'literary' science fiction.
A book like McCarthy's The Road is definitely science fiction - the whole raison d'etre for the plot is the desolation of the landscape and the character's constant struggle, not only physically, but also emotionally to survive wouldn't make sense without that post-apocalyptic scenario.
So, picked up this link from another GoodReader in a different group I'm in, but the topic of this post is all about a recent flap which has spurred discussion of 'literary' vs 'genre' - whether they are mutually exclusive, etc.
http://ellen-datlow.livejournal.com/2127...
As a longtime reader of all kinds of speculative fiction, I find it laughable how many people automatically dismiss SF/Fantasy and all 'speculative fiction as 'crap' not worth reading. Yet, when I discuss with them whether they've read, oh 1984 or Fahrenheit 451 or Dante's Inferno or Shakespeare's Midsummer's Night Dream or a host of other works that would unarguably be classified as 'literary' works and as classics and are taught as such in many schools and colleges - and yet they are all some kind of speculative fiction - dystopias, demons and fairies alike.
Here are some science fiction that I would say are excellent for YA (some are not classified as YA, but are 'safe' for YA):
The Declaration by Gemma Malley
Little Brother by Cory Doctorow
Dolphin Island by Arthur C. Clarke
Dragonsong and Dragonsinger (also found as The Harper Hall of Pern by Anne McCaffrey (and the rest of the Pern series)
Feed by M.T Anderson
Lois Lowry's three similar-world books: The Giver, Gathering Blue, and Messenger
Ender's Game, and then Ender's Shadow(and the rest of that series) by Orson Scott Card
A Thousand Words for Stranger by Julie Czerneda (and the rest of the series)
Beholder's Eye by Julie Czerneda (and the rest of the series)
Childhood's End by Arthur C. Clarke
The Pip & Flinx series by Alan Dean Foster, as well as his Commonwealth series
The Vorkosigan series by Lois McMaster Bujold
Jumper and Reflex by Steven Gould
Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover series
Commitment Hour by James Alan Gardner (for ages 14+)
Soon I Will Be Invincible for superhero fun
Robert A. Heinlein's classic shorter novels like Citizen of the Galaxy, Have Space Suit-Will Travel, Space Cadet, Farmer in the Sky, and Orphans of the Sky
The Ship Who Sang and sequels by Anne McCaffrey & co-authors
The Acorna The Unicorn Girl series by Anne McCaffrey for the 9-11 age group
Most all of Andre Norton's books - The Time Traders, Star Born, Breed to Come, Flight in Yiktor, Forerunner, The Beast Master, etc.
Little Fuzzy and Fuzzy Sapiens by H. Beam Piper
Sector General books by James White
These are books off my shelves, that I've read almost all of. I'm happy to answer any questions, or narrow the choices down for you.
Thanks Kris! = )
James wrote: "Fantasy has trees, Sci-fi has bolts. Heard Orson Scott Card say that, seems to fit."
Ummmm, snappy, but not really true.
Check out any of the science fiction about societies using genetic engineering to create/change animals to fulfill a function, whether super-specialized or not. A good example is West of Eden, the only 'technology' in the series are the bioengineered creatures used by the dinosaur race.
Also doesn't take into account pretty much the entire Urban Fantasy genre, most set in modern times (with plenty of technology.)
Dan wrote: "I tend to think of Fantasy in that way. Books like Lord of the Rings and such.
Sci-fi usually needs a space ship."
But Dan, what do you decide when it has both dragons and a space ship? =)
(An excellent example is All the Weyrs of Pern)
I'm a big fan of both science fiction and fantasy, and while there is a lot of crossover happening in the genres (and a lot of disagreement on where the line is, and new terms being coined), my personal definition is reliant on the author's intent.
So, stuff happening in a story being described as magic (whether inborn or alchemical or tapping into ley lines), gods, goddesses, fairies and fey are all Fantasy for me.
The opposite - plot elements or background having a scientific rationale (whether realistic within our current scientific understandings or not), is science fiction. I also include the social/soft sciences in that as well as the archetypical 'hard' science.
Some elements can go either way.
Dragons, which in many cases are a fantasy element, as a 'mystical/magical' creature, are portrayed in the Pern series as the result of genetic engineering on the part of the original colonists. Regardless of how agrarian/low tech the society in the story is, the presence of dragons has been explained as a result of science. Even the bond between rider and dragon is shown to be a kind of 'imprinting' which occurs at birth of the dragon (and only at birth - quack!)
Another plot element that can go either way is telepathy/mind speaking, or just about any mental powers on that level. Some fantasy stories explain the ability as a result of magic and spells, while science fiction stories will explain it as a result of mutation, or genetic tinkering, computer chip implants or even of cross-breeding with aliens.
Then you have books like The Time Traveler's Wife, which people who love it are horrified and shocked when you classify it as science fiction - (genetically-based time travel = science fiction), some of them are positively outraged.
Which is both funny and sad, since there is really a lot of wonderful literature and a host of great characters in science fiction. It can be deep and complex, or light and fun, there's some for every taste.
I read them as a young teen, and read them in publication order.
I want to go back and re-read them, and I think I'll stick with publication order again.
Alexis wrote: "Before I commit to it, I have one question. Is this one of those books about boys doing horrible and cruel things to each other?"
Well, it is all boys on the island, and some of them do some nasty things to each other, but I wouldn't call it a catalogue of that kind of stuff - that isn't what the book is about. It is a struggle for power/dominance in a group of young boys left to their own devices after their plane crashes onto the island. I'd say it's more about what society do they create, how do they treat each other, what kinds of rituals and 'religion' do they follow, etc.
Wow! Don't check a thread for a couple of days and pow - grows exponentially! (Love it!)
Re: Utopian/Dystopian - Utopia is a theory (no one's achieved it yet = ), but you're not going to find as many works of literature using it as a backdrop, just because the concept of utopia means that everything is perfect, so often the plot is secondary to the descriptions of just how the society is so perfect. Often there are pages and pages of fairly dry descriptive. Dystopias, on the other hand, are very fertile ground for fiction, and I'm sure we could all name some IRL. = )
There are a bunch of works about utopias listed in the wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utopia), for anyone who wants some further reading. I read Thomas More's Utopia back in college, which was dry, but fascinating to read as source material. This is where the concept of utopia, and their opposite, dystopias, spring from. Interestingly, Wiki considers The Giver to be utopian.
Re: Lord of the Flies
I read it as a young teen, when my mother was assigned it for a college course she was taking and brought it home (that's also how/why I read Anthem.) Personally, although I foud it difficult to read (because of empathizing with the characters), I loved it and consider it a must-read.
Gotta run - great discussion!
grandfather clock and out the door, he cried out
I actually already have World War Z on my tbr shelf - thanks! It has been highly recommended by members of my other groups too. = )
The thing about BNW is that besides eugenics and a 'created society', the big challenge of the main characters is that they choose to connect romantically and not just sexually, that the culture they live in does not allow for 'romance' and instead mandates promiscuity for 'mental health'. I remember quite a bit along these lines, which is why I think many might find it objectionable for young YA readers.
I think we're in agreement that it is a fine read for those over 15 or so, I just am still trying to get my head around what ages exactly are considered "YA readers". I was pretty surprised to hear on another thread that 10-12 year olds are reading the Twilight books, and then that another GRer considered people in their early 20's to be 'young adults' and thus YA readers. Really, I think the YA label has never been defined well - is it for kids going through the beginnning stages of puberty and all that stuff, or is it geared towards older teens, who perhaps have the maturity to handle 'real' topics? Since older teens are reading classics like Of Mice and Men in school, which no one would classify as a YA book, should older teens (16+) be considered as 'adult' readers (who can then read from any genre)? Sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread, I'm just finding the classification YA to be troublesome...perhaps it would be better as Tween/Teen for the 10-14 ages, and then YA for the 14-18 ranges...
Back to thread topic:
The whole concept of the genre is to explore all the horrors that lie in wait for taking any one thing to extremes, or in the case of the various means of exterminating the human race (or trying to). I think the very nature of them are as a 'cautionary tale', and that is where they have the most value - in getting us to look outside our personal narrow little window on the world. Perhaps even to give an 'a-ha' moment or two.
I highly recommend Anthem (the shortest book Ayn Rand ever wrote = ), The Handmaid's Tale, and Fahrenheit 451 and to promote some really good mind-stretching.
I'd be interested in hearing what you think of Surviving Antarctica, hadn't heard of that book before. You might also be interested in The Long Walk by Stephen King - it is a similar premise. Haven't read it yet, but it looks good...
I really enjoy reading this genre, so I have over 40 books on my shelf (of the same name) on GR, and probably the same amount again to read, that have been recommended by other GR folks. (Some interesting threads on the topic in other groups are HERE and HERE, and of course there is the Dystopias and Social Critiques Group (not YA necessarily.)
Personally, I don't think most of this genre is for young YA readers, most of the topics covered can be quite adult or even disturbing. The point of these stories is to 'scare us straight' when it comes to seeing what the end result of nuclear war or eugenics or unrestrained capitalism (or government, or whatever) might do to the environment or to human society. Those can be some heavy issues and some authors get down to the nitty-gritty of sexual mores or reproduction issues. Others don't get near sex/reproduction issues, but show a heavy drug culture or have graphic scenes of violence or torture. Usually not gratuitously, but to add depth to their world-building.
Except for some of the newer stuff aimed at tweens/teens, most of this genre is not written with a YA audience in mind, although there is no reason why mature teens can't read them.
Like Brave New World - it actually has quite a large sexual context to it, so I wouldn't recommend it for younger teens. I read it myself in the car driving to Michigan to start my freshman year of college, so I certainly think older teens can handle it, especially in a guided discussion of the topics it raises.
I just finished Feed last week, and it is definitely YA and dystopian. I'd recommend it as a good YA read, but as an adult, I've read better.
Here's a direct link to my bookshelf, if you want to see my ratings on the books I've read.
Play
There are two illustrators co-listed with her for the graphic novels - Dean Hale and Nathan Hale - which is her DH and do you know what relation the other is?
