Terence's comments (member since Nov 22, 2008)

Terence's comments from the Fantasy Book Club group.

The office won last month's sales upsells contest so I went a bit "crazy" at Amazon with the gift certificate that we got.

I'll spare you the nonfiction haul but in fiction, I have the following to look forward to (eventually):

Run Man Run, Chester Himes
We Have Always Lived in the Castle, Shirley Jackson
The Red Tree, Caitlin Kiernan
The Marquise of O and Other Stories, Heinrich von Kleist
Fantasia, Assia Djebar
Transition, Iain Banks
All the Windwracked Stars, Elizabeth Bear

Charles wrote: "Has anyone but me read the "Sanctuary" series, AKA "Thieves World?" I was first fascinated by the method of its writing (total collaboration), then taken by the quality of the editing/writing and ..."

If you liked Thieves World, have you read any of the Liavek collections (all edited by Will Shetterly and Emma Bull)?

Liavek
Liavek: The Players of Luck
Liavek: Wizard's Row
Liavek: Spells of Binding
Liavek: Festival Week

I found the writing more consistently good and the story arcs more interesting. Thieves World went on a little too long for me, though the first few collections were quite good.

Dang, this topic is still too big to get a grasp on :-)

But here I go...In answer to the original inspiration for this thread - "What do you think about the quality of fantasy today?" - I'll answer that, overall, I think things are "good," certainly no worse than at any other time in literary history. True, the advent of the internet, cheap self-publishing and the post-Tolkien flourishing of the genre mean we have to wade through more trash to find the pearls but that's not necessarily a bad thing - when you read as much SF/Fantasy as many of us do in this group, you develop instincts that help you steer clear of the dross. Just keep your preferences flexible and be willing to take the occasional chance. (A veiled plug for James Branch Cabell's work :-)

What, though, is "quality"?

Here's where I get tripped up since I don't think Gary's correct that there's a difference between older and newer works in terms of the means by which we judge them. We may not find much that speaks to us in older works (how many people read 19th century boys-adventure stories anymore, regardless of the quality of writing?) or find the writing conventions of an older era awkward but that doesn't make them worthless or justify the absurd claim that books written in the last 50 years are "better" than older ones.

I'm going to fall back on the critic Daniel Mendolsohn's definition of what makes a book (or any medium) "quality":

(1) Meaningful coherence of form and content;
(2) Precise employment of detail to support (1);
(3) Vigor and clarity of expression; and
(4) Seriousness of purpose

And an author can still be a pleasant enough diversion if they only fulfill 2 or 3 of the above criteria. This is where I'd class that vast majority of authors we all read, including Rowling and Harris.

I'm going to shamelessly quote another favorite lit-critic of mine regarding this subject: Mark Edmundson tackles this question in Why Read in regards to why Stephen King is a "good" writer but not a "great" one, why his books are "good" but not "classics" (and it has nothing to do with overuse of the imperfect tense):

"[Steven:] King is an entertainment. King is a diversion. But when you try to take him as a guide to life, he won't work. The circles he draws on the deep are weak and irresolute. And this is so in part because King...is a sentimental writer. In his universe, the children...are good, right, just and true.... But bring this way of seeing the world out into experience and you'll pretty quickly pay for it. Your relation to large quadrants of experience...will likely be paranoid and fated to fail...."

A very interesting thread, particularly the latest back and forth 'tween Blackrose and Gary. The concept of "quality" is so vast, though, that I fear we're all talking past each other.

And despite Blackrose's repeated entreaties, I still have no idea what criteria Gary is judging new and old works by - "I can definitely tell you what the new criteria is" - Gary, please do!

Looking past personal preference (which, in my case, makes me loath Patrick Rothfuss and shrug my shoulders at J.K. Rowling but love Tolkien, Erikson and James Cabell) I think the definition of "quality" was captured by Somerset Maugham when he commented on an artist of his day:

I have written this because it may have escaped the notice of many who have admired her brilliant performances that they are due not only to her natural gifts...but to patience, assiduity, industry and discipline. Without these it is impossible to excel in any of the arts.

And you can see that in the pulp fiction masterworks of Robert E. Howard compared to the hack work of Lin Carter. (Apologies to Lin Carter fans out there :-)

What I'm reading this month:

Continuing to progress through The Malazan Book of the Fallen. I'm in the midst of #5, Midnight Tides, which takes us to an entirely new part of the planet though it's just as threatened by the corruption of the Crippled God.

I'm also going to finish Laird Barron's collection of horror stories, The Imago Sequence and Other Stories; and I'm enjoying the final discs of the AudioCD version of book #3 in The Bartimaeus Trilogy by Jonathan Stroud.

blackrose wrote: "Ronda wrote: "@ Blackrose - So you are a Sookie Stockhouse fan too. I have seen the first and second season on HBO and love it. I've read the first book of Charlene Harris True Blood series and s..."

Blackrose, if you're looking for horror this month you might like Laird Barron's collection of short stories - The Imago Sequence and Other Stories. I should finish my copy this week sometime. He's in the tradition of Lovecraft but writes with a "modern" sensibility. Not as well as Caitlin Kiernan (see Alabaster, for example) but he's not bad.

Jon wrote: "Happy Birthday Terrence! :) And many happy hours ... or days ... of reading pleasure to you! :)..."

As if I needed a b-day to splurge :-)

Thanks, and it's "days", definitely "days"

It was my birthday this month, so I took the pennies I've been saving for the last year a splurged a bit:

Naamah's Kiss, Jacqueline Carey
House of Suns, Alastair Reynolds
The Unscratchables (forget the author)
Anchorwick, Jeffrey Barlough

And the piece de resistance - Steven Erikson's Dust of Dreams (the UK edition - can't wait for the US)

And that's just the SF/Fantasy stuff.

I am dismayed - has no one read C.J. Cherryh's Morgaine novels? :-)

There's also her standalone, The Paladin with Taizu, which I enjoyed immensely. And, though not Fantasy, there's Signy Mallory and Ariane Emory from her Alliance/Union universe (especially Downbelow Station).

Also in the Fantasy genre is Jessica Salmondson's The Swordswoman, another favorite.

Steve Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen, books 1 thru 9...life is good.

But I'll probably break it up w/ some short novels (most likely Ivy Compton-Burnett) and nonfiction stuff just to keep the brain from overheating. "Too much of anything, even love, isn't a good thing" (to paraphrase Capt. Kirk).

Cody wrote: "So, should I read the Hobbit book first before the three Lord of the Rings books? ..."

@Cody - if you're willing to accept another opinion, I'd start with LotR since you seem to be easing into Tolkien via the movies. The Hobbit, as Peter points out, is very different in style and audience.

The rest of this post is directed not so much at Peter's comments but at the thoughts they've stirred up:

1. While I won't go so far as to use the word "loathe" to describe my reaction to the movies, I will say that the more I watch them, the more I find to object to (sigh). I liked the first one. Jackson seemed to "get it" and the changes he made were reasonable in my opinion - yes, Bombadil & the Barrow Downs had to go; and replacing Glorfindel with an expanded role for Arwen was a canny, if politically correct, move. Alas, while very attractive, Liv Tyler just didn't have the "presence" to carry off the role.

Movies 2 & 3, unfortunately, just got more and more irritating. Please, don't get me started on what they did to the Ents, to Denethor or to Faramir, or to the awful bastardization of the encounter between Gandalf and the Mouth of Sauron.

On the plus side, Ian McKellan, Viggo Mortensen, Sean Bean and the actors who played Faramir and Theoden were quite good.

2. Why not send Eagles to drop the ring into Orodruin? I agree with all of the reasons put forth for not asking Gwaihir to do it but also wanted to bring up these points: Namely, that ME was entering the Dominion of Men (Hobbits being a subset of that species) and the Ring was Man's responsibility - to destroy or to use. Also, the Eagles (as opposed to "eagles") were the spies and messengers of Manwe and, like the Valar, not active agents in ME's history.

3. Descriptions. Tolkien was very parsimonious about describing his creatures. Nowhere, for example, is an Elf ever described with pointed ears. Physically they're much like Men but fairer and usually taller, with an alien presence most noticeable in their eyes. The same goes for an Orc. I mean, if two Hobbits can pass themselves off as Orcs, how different can they be from a Man? Or Ents. A close reading of Treebeard's description in The Two Towers reveals a very human-like creature, not a walking tree.

4. Christopher Tolkien. I think Christopher's "secret" is that he isn't writing his own novels. He's working from the notes and drafts left by his father, and he's meticulous about remaining true to his father's vision.

PS: I'm w/ Peter all the way on the Dune sequels.

I'm going to be heavily into Fantasy in the foreseeable future:

I have to finish The Master and Margarita by Bulgakov (hope to by the weekend). Then I'll get around to Jeffrey Barlough's Bertram of Butter Cross.

Then...oh, then...the big project begins!

I have a copy of the UK edition of Ian Esslemont's Return of the Crimson Guard and I've preordered the UK edition of Steven Erikson's Dust of Dreams. The former is Book 2 of Esslemont's Malazan Empire series; the latter is Book 9 of Erikson's. Both necessitate a complete rereading of the entire series so I'm looking forward to rereading Night of Knives and all eight books of The Malazan Book of the Fallen, starting with Gardens of the Moon :-)

Obviously (unless I discover a heretofore unknown ability to manipulate time), this will carry me well into September, if not October as well.

Zachary wrote: "Has anyone read Winterbirth by Brian Ruckley? Is it any good? I saw it at Barnes and Noble today and was so close to buying it!
"

I enjoyed it. It tweaks the usual stereotypes in interesting ways, and the characters were interesting. If you like Winterbirth, the second in the series is Bloodheir The Godless World Book 2. The third book, Fall of Thanes is due out soon (but I can't remember the date).

My curiousity has been piqued: In another thread in this group, one of our GR colleagues was asking about Glen Cook's Black Company novels. It turns out that he's Chinese and mentioned that Croaker's (the series' main character) name is "Wawa."

So, of course, I'm now interested in the ways other languages translate the names of our favorite characters.

How does the hapless Chinese or Japanese translator of Michael Moorcock deal with "Elric of Melnibone" or Tolkien's "Frodo Baggins"?

I'd also be curious if anyone knew how English translators deal with Chinese and other "exotic" names when they render them.

Systest wrote: "Croaker, Mmm...
Most of you guys mentioned this character, I need to pay attention on him...

In Chinaese, we call Croaker - 哇哇(pronunciation: wawa)"

@Systest: In English, "to croak" means "to die" so Croaker's name is a joke about his role as the Company's physician - if you let yourself get sick, he'll kill you (that's the joke, of course, Croaker is a good doctor).

Does "wawa" mean the same thing in Chinese?

Though, even if it does, I have to admit I don't think I'd have the same feelings for a character named "Wawa" as I do for one named "Croaker."

And I'm curious now: How is Lady translated? Raven? Limper? How do translators deal with Hagop?

The Books of the North (the first three) are Glen Cook at his best. The Books of the South are uneven and when Croaker is not the narrator don't have the same conviction but they're still good. And the ending of the series (Soldiers Live The Chronicle of the Black Company Books of the Glittering Stone Book Four) is perfect.

Of course, I'm a bit biased: You'll notice that Croaker is my avatar here on GR :-)

Somewhere in his History of Middle Earth Tolkien's son mentions that his father would spend considerable amounts of time mapping the his characters' journeys practically down to the very hours spent on the road so that he could coordinate the action.

The Two Towers is the first SF book I can recall making my father buy for me and one of the neatest things about it was the map. For a time my 12-year-old self wouldn't even consider a book that lacked a map :-)

@C.J.: I was interested to learn that you might have drawn a map or two of the lands your characters travel in because, though I love Morgaine and Vanye (I'd follow her into the Last Gate any day), I really wished there had been maps when I read the series. Is there any edition that carries a map? Are there any hanging around, say, your website or a fans?

And one final note: I don't see it mentioned in this thread but I really recommend J.B. Post's An Atlas of Fantasy, it's chock full of well known and obscure fantastical maps.

Laurel wrote: "What a great thread! There are many, but I have to say the worst are either the Wheel of Time covers (entire series), or the first book in the Steven Erikson series. I can't believe that this is ..."

I like the cover art for the US edition of Gardens of the Moon. If you want cheesy, take a gander at the Polish edition!

Now that's bad art!

Well, I have to read Lane Robins' Maledicte Antyre Book 1 and M. John Harrison's Nova Swing because they're library checkouts.

Once I get past those, I'll probably look into the two Chester Himes novels I borrowed from a friend - If He Hollers Let Him Go: A Novel and Pinktoes: A Novel Banner Books Jackson Miss. . a while ago.

After that, I'll be playing it by ear.

Martha wrote: "Pat wrote: "I moved last July to a new area. I went to the library near me and ask for their science fiction section.The lady responded with science what. I knew I was in trouble. Another person sa..."

That is a sad, terribly sad comment about our time. I'm lucky - LA County has a really tremendous collection of books, if you're willing to wait a bit sometimes for interlibrary loan, and (unlike the city) they're not bankrupt so the system should be able to remain open (crossed fingers).

As to what I'm reading this month - I haven't a clue. I'm in the middle of rereading Lewis' Narnia books but that won't take me through the end of the month. Lord knows there's enough on my To-Read list but nothing is crying out "read me! read me!"

Last month, I read The Judging Eye, by R. Scott Bakker, the first book in the follow up to The Prince of Nothing series. If you've read those first three novels, you'll definitely want to pick up this one. And another recommendation from last month has to be anything by Edgar Pangborn; in the case of last month, his short-story collection Still I Persist in Wondering.