Muzzlehatch's comments (member since Nov 16, 2008)

Muzzlehatch's comments from the Debate Religion group.

Eric,
I actually don't think pushing one's faith is "un-Christian"; from the way I've always understood it (and I have a conservative born-again minister in the family), proselytizing is in the mainstream of the evangelical movement, and agressively pushing Jesus in people's faces is encouraged. Certainly the Mormons feel the same way. Whether it is what the mythical founder of the faith would have wished, of course, were he around today or ever, is open to interpretation. But like I say, to me it's just advertising, like wearing a Grateful Dead shirt. I don't personally like it, it's part of the increasing fragmenting and uglifying of our society, but there's nothing wrong with it.

As far as people wearing Christian stuff in hostile places, again not un-Christian from what I understand. Just stupid.

George Carlin had the answers. This is a snippet for "Back in Town" - I think you can find the whole thing on YouTube but I'm too lazy..

"If you're pre-born, you're fine, if you're pre-schooled, you're fucked. Conservatives want live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers. Pro-life, these people aren't pro-life, they're killing doctors, what kind of pro-life is that? What, they'll do everything they can do save a fetus, but if it grows up to be a doctor they just might have to kill it?"

R.C. - great comments.

Of course private religious displays should be allowed, and to me they fall into the same category as any other kind of advertising -- wearing an Obama or McCain shirt/pin, a band t-shirt, an expensive article of clothing with a very obvious label. There's nothing wrong with it exactly -- except perhaps on aesthetic grounds. Is it really pleasurable to see advertising thrown in your face all day long, the obsessions of complete strangers? Do we really want to be pushing our opinions abuot everything onto everybody we meet? Of course most people don't think about it in these terms, but I've grown increasingly disgusted with the trashiness of American consumer society, and the advertising that we now put all over our bodies, our cars, our houses is a major part of the problem. I like Robert Crumb's comments on this theme in the documentary about him, Crumb, a great film which I urge anyone with an interest in the past 40 years of cultural history to see. One can express one's individuality without branding being in evidence everywhere.

Why can't we keep our favorite bands, our religion, our politics out of each others' faces, and put it back in serious public discourse?

Heath,

Yes, Christmas is named for, and nominally celebrates, the birth of the mythical figure Jesus Christ; but unlike Easter, it has only been considered a really major holiday - the major holiday - for about 160-180 years. Its genesis as the holiday we know really dates to Charles Dickens' five Christmas books (published in the 1840s) and and Clement Clarke Moore's poem "The Night Before Christmas" (published 1822). It just wasn't a big deal before that time, and it has been commercialized from the very beginning of its time as an "important" holiday.

As to why we celebrate it, I'm sure I speak for many others' experiences as well by noting my own: I was raised in a secular, if nominally Christian household, and we always celebrated Christmas growing up, even if we didn't go to church to celebrate it; it's pretty hard to avoid all the movies, TV, music, decorations, books, etc -- it wasn't much easier in the 1970s. I appreciate a lot of the things that Christmas is supposed to mean -- goodwill towards one's fellow man, love thy neighbor, generosity, charity towards those less fortunate, etc etc -- values which are not specifically Christian, but are common to most faiths. Had I been raised an agnostic Jew, I would probably celebrate Hannukah with the same spirit in mind.

"In addition, the wording of your post indicates severe religious intolerance and bigotry, along with a egocentric view of the world."

but...but that's what Christianity is all about!

This thread posted today could have some promising stuff, though it's just started:

http://www.freeratio.org/vbb/showthread....

Apparently she didn't want to stick around to see how it plays out, as she has already left the group.

It's going to be hard to find conservative evangelicals to get into this debate; we should look for Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Buddhists etc -- we are more likely to find some attempts at an intellectual approach outside of the fundamentalists.

Wow that site is enormous. Looks to be...2 million threads or so? If anybody happens to sort through them and find any particularly relevant chunks, let us know. I don't know where to begin with it, wow.

Tom,

Sounds a lot like my Dad -- nothing's ever Dad's fault, it's always someone else's (usually the dang liberals). Dad never makes a mistake. Hmmm. Maybe my Dad is God?

Ah, I just checked Amazon, it comes out on DVD in the USA on January 13.

Anybody seen this? It's a recent TV-movie, I believe it was on PBS in the US -- or perhaps it hasn't shown here at all; it was originally on in the UK. It's about men in Auschwitz holding a trial of God; obviously it is told from a Jewish perspective, but it looks like it would be worthwhile for everyone here to see. Here's the IMDB info:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1173494/

This is completely unhelpful, and you know you don't really have to post huge chunks of Biblical gibberish -- unless you're going to annotate it yourself or something -- the full text is, obviously, available all over the Net. Just a link or a mention of the chapter & verse would suffice.

What I think others are getting at, and you didn't address, is why does God punish animals for Man's sin? What did the goats and the fleas and the worms and the cats do wrong? Especially since they apparently don't even have Heaven to look forward to?

We're looking for a bit higher standard of evidence than you are used to, I'm afraid.

An exhaustive guide to the contradictions, inconsistencies, and other problems can be found here:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/


And they actually have links to Christian websites that attempt to refute them, also. A wealth of stuff there for all tastes and beliefs...

D'oh, I didn't look that closely did I? Not awake yet. Should not partake in this discussion at this moment, am not really up to it now. Carry on.

2. Where is the information to back your claim

Just type "Jesus Horus" into Google and you'll get tons of hits. The very first one is rather interesting, and contains lots of references to other books and websites:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jc...

"Since there are only 2 people here that are not Atheist....this is really an Atheist board."

And that's too bad. There's already a discussion group for Atheists and Skeptics. Hopefully this group will invite a wider range of people than just the two extremes that it seems now to consist of.

Much of the writing in the King James version is quite beautiful, and much of what Jesus says is worthwhile. I confess to only having thoroughly read the 5 books of Moses, Joshua, Psalms, and the Gospels, and it's been a while, but I do intend to get through all of it some day.

It's also, of course, hugely influential on the whole of western culture, and anyone who would like a real background in which to more fully understand literary works such as The Inferno, Ulysses, Paradise Lost, etc (all on my long-term reading list) probably ought to know the Bible.

Good one Megan. But how often do most "Christians" really live by WJWD?

They still haven't gotten over the Enlightenment.

It's sad. There are intelligent and somewhat openminded religious folk who I think would enjoy the debate; let's hope they find their ways here on their own, because I don't think they'll be getting help from the groupmind over there.