Andy's recent posts

Recent public posts (showing 81-100 of 280).

Some people even like to delve back into the archives every once in a while. Perhaps for the same reasons that novelists like to put manuscripts aside for awhile before coming back to them. There is a lot of power in recorded writing, to come back to it with a different context. It’s like if you get up to go to the refrigerator and forget what you are doing half way there. Multiply this by many times, and you get the changes that have occurred within an individual when they go to a conversation 24 hours after they last were involved in it. It’s an amazing way to approach a topic with different insights and creativity. There is a theory about studying for an exam that says if you study in different locations on different days, you improve your ability to recall information because you have exposed more neurons to the material (spatial neurons). So just approaching the same conversation on different days can be very powerful (this is probably old news to CR people).

Candy and I were talking to my friend Joe about this when I was moving recently. He kind of scoffed at the idea of spending time in a forum, and Candy and I tried to explain to him what we liked about them. Candy brought up the idea of context, I believe, and I brought up the idea of emotional risk taking and expressiveness.

And, if I can compare the chat forum experience to my old roommate’s group therapy case study book I enjoyed so much, in group therapy, people sometimes reveal themselves to each other in profound ways even if they are trying to hide from each other. In group therapy, sometimes a person’s desire to hide something from the others ends up revealing something important. The mix of people in a room might reveal a person’s reason’s for hiding in a way that the person never could have arrived at through other means of exploration (ie naval gazing).

For me, anyway, I’m much more comfortable expressing myself in writing than I am in speaking. I’m an okay talker, but really, I think it takes me a long time to get what I want to say worked into just the right form, something I’m not always able to do in off-the-cuff speaking, where it seems more of a talent is to just let it fly with little concern for consequences. I once did an informal poll in a writing forum. In this forum, everybody is completely anonymous. It is known that some people present themselves very differently than they might otherwise. Maybe they pretend to be the opposite sex or a different age or whatever. So I asked the question: “When you come on this forum, are you playing a character or are you yourself?” Well, of course, none of the “alts” would reveal themselves in my poll. For me, I tend to be myself but try to be more of a character (it’s funny because I find myself being shy and holding back for fear of what people might think of me, even though it’s anonymous!). The surprising result was that a bunch of people said they felt like characters in their real lives, and felt most like themselves when they were online in this particular forum.

To see the Internet as a metaphor for the collective unconscious, and to see our posts recorded, I think it gives us a unique perspective on our own psyches. Actually, I’ve been working on a project where I recycle material from old notebooks into new writing, and I’m taking old forum posts, old emails, even old instant messages and using them as sort of an unconscious for new characters. This way, I don’t have to rely on my limited consciousness of the present. It’s trying to build on what has come before but was nearly forgotten.

I think Candy is very far ahead of the "thought leaders" at work because of her interrogative fearlessness. (Jacket blurb? LOL) It seems to me such a rich topic you’ve chosen, Candy. My mind gets to racin’ whenever I look at that clip! (I like the write up, too.)

[Sorry for the two-parter, it's been so long since I've been here, I couldn't help myself!:]

Candy, I hope you don't mind, but I posted a link to your blog on my company chat forum I think on Monday (yes, our company has its own inter-office chat forum... pretty cool for a chat forum fan like me, especially since we have offices in more desirable cities that I can now communicate with).

Anyway since it's a media company, figuring out how to get people online and viewing our media is a big priority within the company.

I have mixed feelings about my involvement in this initiative. One thing I enjoy about the forums I go to is that they are basically non-commercial. They are not really about money. So it is a little uncomfortable for me to be putting forth ideas (mine and others’) about how to drive people to spend their time on forums at the expense of other things they could be doing with their time. For the sake of our company's profit. (Eventual profit, I should say, because nobody's really making any money on forums yet or online media in general, as far as I know. If anybody has contrary examples, feel free to send them to me in a private email :)

Anyway, remember that article somebody posted on CR about people with mental disorders finding support in online forums? I also posted a link to that article, and this quote:
"For Mr. Robinson and several other Web site users interviewed for this article — all of whom insisted they were not delusional, including one man who said he had been hospitalized in psychiatric wards — the sites provide the powerful, unfamiliar experience of being understood by others."

The kind of understanding that happens on forums might not be profound understanding on the face of it, but there is something about the contexts that are created in the various discussions, and there is something about the fact that the conversations span days and weeks, and there is something about the fact that the conversations are public and recorded and archived.


The same types of communication and understanding can occur at an in-person book group, but that experience is in some ways more fleeting because it is not recorded and archived. The in-person book group may be more powerful in other ways in the sense that the entire people are physically present. I think forums really present the opportunity for just a slightly different kind of communication and understanding.

Trying to figure out how to communicate these benefits to potential forum customers is a bit of a trick. I made a somewhat tongue-in-cheek post the other day.

It may be belaboring what I’m trying to say, but I’m so proud to be involved in all of this right now so I’m posting it here, too:

This article about Facebook turning people into introverts (link at bottom) has a lot to say about our efforts to get people involved in our online communities. The research study doesn't actually show that people are turning into introverts, it's just an alarmist title to sell papers. But it illustrates the fact that there is a major portion of the population who believe online communication is inferior to other forms of communication.

This common attitude hinders our efforts to get people involved in our online communities.

Chat forums, for instance, don't enjoy the popularity they might. It's a PR issue. A lot of people associate discussion forums with sleazy chat rooms. A lot of people associate time spent on the Internet as frivolous time wasting. A lot of people turn up their noses at the idea of making real connections with people online. I know people who spend time at a book discussion site who don't really talk about their online activities with their family and friends, because their family and friends have weird attitudes about this way of communicating. [Confirmed by Dottie in #8:]

Getting people to spend time in online communities still has major PR issues.

Maybe media companies should band together and do a PR campaign, like Got Milk? or Pork the Other White Meat. Something to get the common person more excited about the possibilities of online communities.

It could be called Got Community? or something along those lines.

The ads could go like this:

Have you had it up to here with your friends and family? Go ONLINE, where you're sure to find SOMEBODY who will agree with you! The Internet, find your Vindication.

Or, conversely,

Do your friends and family agree with you too easily? Go ONLINE and pick a fight. EXPRESS your inner TROLL!

This industry group could also sponsor research and art that would extol the virtues of spending time online. This would generate a lot of news stories and interest in the positive impacts of online experiences. I can see Dr. Phil going on Oprah and telling the guest to go online and find a community of like minded people in order to lead a richer, more fulfilling life. Imagine the flood of people running to their computers at Dr. Phil's behest! Some of those people would surely end up joining our communities.

Here's the article about Facebook turning people into Introverts. It's funny on a lot of levels:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sciencean...u...

Here's an article about mentally ill people connecting to other mentally ill people online and deciding they aren't so mentally ill after all (it's a nice example of the virtues of online community building):
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/13/fa...html?ref=style

The company I work for has grammar classes here: www.writersonlineworkshops.com.

I took a grammar and mechanics class through the site. The material was good and there was some interaction in a class-specific discussion forum. But after working all day staring at a computer, the last thing I wanted to do was come home and stare at a text-based grammar lesson on my computer. It was really very difficult for me to process the info because of the circumstances.

Good luck!

I've go to in-person groups. I like them a lot. I found my groups by looking at bulletin boards and such in libraries.

I will have to check out zoetrope, sounds interesting.

The advantage of in-person groups, in my opinion, is that you can feel the energy of the people in the room as a piece is being read.

I like his use of lowercase letters.

It's a nice poem, not the most passionate of topics, but one that is on (and off) our minds.

I suppose one could infer that the poem is a metaphor for the loss of love or the loss of the memory of love, if one wanted to read some sort of passion into it.

And that getting up in the middle of the night to check on a fact is a surrogate action for whatever it is that people use to deal with pain. Or is not knowing something such a painful experience for Billy Collins?

Part of the reason for criticisms calling Collins a lightweight may come from the fact that some people prefer poems that describe emotion in more specific terms?

I was going to say that the poem could be called academic, he starts out talking about a book for crying out loud. It reminds me of Philip Roth trying to get us to make love to his book. Oh, yes, Billy Collins, I'm sure forgetting the name of that book was just so darn frustrating you were moved to go out and write a poem about it.

But then it turns out the things he is forgetting could add up to a passionate story: a muse, destiny, a flower, an exotic land.

I'm not sure how the quadratic equation and the uncle fit in, but I'm sure there's some explanation?

This line I find particularly creepy:
"Well on your own way to oblivion..."

Getting up in the middle of the night to check a fact to stave off feeling one's mortality?

There are many people posting poems on different chat forums, some of them quite moving, if not good. And many cities have venues where you can hear poetry (writing groups or readings). I have found poetry alive in many towns and cities.

I think all poetry will eventually be forgotten, but poetry itself seems unlikely to end as long as there are humans. The end of poetry would be like the end of logic. I think both could end but it would take so long that it wouldn't matter to any of us.

If poetry did end, I wonder what all the poets would do? Become accountants?

Also, rap is poetry.

Niche,

I once started and stopped Little, Big also. I picked it up years later and read it straight through and loved it. Go figure.

-andy

Chris has recommended a story from the past, "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson.

Here is a link to the story:
http://www.americanliterature.com/Jackso...

Let's try to start the discussion later this week or on the weekend. Feel free to be the first poster.

If you subscribe to the New Yorker, you can read a scan of the story as it originally appeared in 1948 here:
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/1948/06...

Works for me.

Here's a link to the story:
http://www.americanliterature.com/Jackso...

Let's take a few days to read and start the discussion later this week, or this weekend, or early next week.

Oh now I see that resonance, too.

This is one crazy poem, it seems so dense I can hardly remember the beginning by the time I get to the end.

I guess there is life and death in there, the letter on the postcard is the living soul?

It's strange how he repeats the Woe's me! Woe's me! part with all the other things in between.

And the payment due part is kind of creepy. I agree with you about the title, Ruth, what is so hopeful about impending death?

That's interesting, Ruth. What do you think it is about these two poems that causes that resonance?

This poem I believe is quite a lot more dense in a way. What do you think is happening with that step on the stairs? The gray Daemon?

Hmmm, you are Pope. Not you are THE Pope. That clarifies nothing for me but an important distinction none the less, I think. What's Pope got to do with it?

The props are surprisingly precise.

I wonder if Szymborska did any other poems with this theme? I wonder what she thought of words as physicalities, as props, not necessarily poems, just words spoken in general.

The last two lines bring to light for me a way poets create meaning out of the matter we have to work with, or a way poets create weight for the matter of interior life. This strikes me powerfully because I grew up believing thoughts and deeds aren't very important.

Thanks for posting this one, Ruth.

The more inefficient solution is to take screen captures of your book list, paste the screen captures into your word processor (if on a PC), and print. Voila, a hard copy back up.

It seems like there has been a trend toward stories told in non-traditional ways. Take a book of found shopping lists, for example. Or the pieces that show up on McSweeney's Internet Tendency. Don't they post fictional essays or something? This piece could almost be a fictional historical essay. Are there precedents for this kind of thing out there? If you look at The Book Bench blog (linked on the story page) there is a mention of a story with the form of an auction catalog. I'm sure non-traditional story forms are nothing new, but it might be fun to list a couple for purposes of comparison.

Yes Robert, I can see how the story could be found to be less than compelling. Making complacency a compelling theme does have its challenges.

I'm thinking of a painter I know who only works in moments of extreme passion, she feels all other kinds of work end up empty. I disagree, I say my friend has no respect for subtlety and time. I think many writers attempt to give voice to the very subtle feelings that otherwise would never get a hearing. I guess the challenge is to make those subtleties into something compelling.

I still can't get over the omission of military types and the fact that the narrator only is interested in his own town. These two factors make the story feel like a fairy tale to me, so divorced from the tropes of the classic invasion story, where the government would step in. The government always steps in, don't they?

The discussion is under way:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1069...

I read the story and a couple thoughts have occurred to me:

1. There doesn't seem to be any specific character or protagonist. Rather, humanity is portrayed in the story as a sort of collective character. And a rather complacent character, at that.

2. Millhauser seems to have been very specific about omitting alarmed humans and government scientists decked out in haz mat suits. It felt to me like a way to carve out his own space for the story, and also to play against the ideas we all have of invaders that have developed from popular entertainment. I want to say that Millhauser is not doing realism here, but I think that partly because he doesn't have sirens and scientists and military troops running around mucking things up. I guess that makes me like the people in the story, they expected real aliens to fight with, I expected humvees and spotlights and sealed tents where secret procedures were carried out on the aliens like in E.T.

I think this is great:
...it’s also possible that we will fail and that our town will gradually disappear under a fatal accumulation.
The narrator is just not concerned at all with the global implications of the yellow dust. What gives?

Cool, man. I was thinking you were suggesting something like comedic monologues as opposed to interpretation. Which WOULD be fun, if somewhat difficult.

Welcome to the discussion. Brennan gamely suggested this story:

http://www.newyorker.com/fiction/feature...

I guess we can start the discussion now or later this week. I haven't read the story yet, but I will probably Monday and then I will come back and read the discussion and then I will post.

So if you've read the story and would like to comment, go ahead.

Oh yeah, if you'd like to discuss group procedure, go to this thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1063...

Okay. To get started let's do "Invasion from Outer Space" by Steven Millhauser. Thanks Brennan. Looks good.

We can continue to discuss procedure here. I'm more of an ideas man myself (ahem) and not given to administering things like votes and schedules. To tell the truth, I'm one of those people who never votes for the book and never suggests books, so...

If somebody else wants to do some kind of organizational scheme, that's cool with me. If not it can just be a loose discussion every month or so.

Well (clears throat, adjusts tie) I'm not actually much of an organizer, but I think I can throw out a title from the New Yorker or Ploughshares with a link and a projected start date.

I don't think this will happen today, but I will do it soon. Maybe today.

I'm not sure how one might handle this comment about being fun rather than literary. I guess we'll just pick something and see what happens?

I'll start a new thread, look for it this week. Or maybe later today.

Anybody have any suggestions for stories from NY or Ploughshares?