Manny’s review of And Then There Were None > Likes and Comments

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message 1: by Yngvild (new)

Yngvild Interesting paper. Perhaps it should be compulsory reading for anybody wanting to add a question to the trivia quiz.

I completely agree with your conclusions about Agatha Christie's writing. You have to be very clever to write simply.


message 2: by Bradley (new)

Bradley Milton Nice. Liked this. I think only improvement that Agatha Christie could have made was to not give away the ending right in the title. AND THEN THERE MIGHT HAVE BEEN NONE would have been better. First rule of mystery, keep them guessing.


message 3: by Manny (new)

Manny Thank you Bradley! And in case you didn't know, Agatha Christie's original title preserved the mystery much more effectively, but was unfortunately too politically incorrect to be usable in our modern age...


message 4: by Bradley (new)

Bradley Milton What was the title? Now I'm even more intrigued...


message 6: by Bradley (new)

Bradley Milton Interesting. I believe that Christie made the right choice. In today's Market, this word is a hard sell. Outside of Rap Music at least.

So this is an example of adapting to the Market. I've seen it myself with Huck Milton. I just took the n-word out of Huckleberry Finn and then added a few more words, gave all the characters some psychedelic drugs, brought in a robotic Jerry Garcia, introduced a modern day Jim Morrison impersonator with ill-fitting wig, all of Ed Wood's minor character cast, several other classic works of literature, and coding documentation by IBM. But I won't say more -- cant' give it all away. Suspense is always important.


message 7: by Manny (new)

Manny There already is an edition of Huck Finn without the N-word - in fact, my review is mostly about that. But I think it lacks a robotic Jerry Garcia. Why, I simply can't imagine.


message 8: by Bradley (new)

Bradley Milton What the authors of these books must realize is that imagination is more important than knowledge; so John Lennon was right. Also enjoying your Program Code, by the way. Computational Linguistics is a win-win.


message 9: by Junta (new)

Junta Manny, curious to read your paper, but the link doesn't seem to work for me.


message 10: by Manny (new)

Manny Junta wrote: "Manny, curious to read your paper, but the link doesn't seem to work for me."

Junta, thank you for pointing that out! Not sure how it got broken... anyway, I have fixed it again.


message 11: by Nandakishore (new)

Nandakishore Varma I read it with the original title, from our library, in the early eighties. Being Indian, I never knew that there was anything pejorative in it. Later on, when I saw the book on a bookstore shelf, the name had been changed to "Ten Little Indians". I saw the 1974 movie version, which showed Indians (us "real" Indians, not Native Americans) as the porcelain dolls which got broken one by one.

BTW, this movie was adapted from the stage version, where Dame Agatha substantially changed the script.


message 12: by Manny (last edited Oct 22, 2015 12:48AM) (new)

Manny Nandakishore wrote: "Being Indian, I never knew that there was anything pejorative in it. Later on, when I saw the book on a bookstore shelf, the name had been changed to "Ten Little Indians". I saw the 1974 movie version, which showed Indians (us "real" Indians, not Native Americans) as the porcelain dolls which got broken one by one."

That's interesting! In my mind's eye, I had never seen anything but Native Americans. I will have to redo the mental artwork for this rhyme.


message 13: by Nandakishore (new)

Nandakishore Varma Manny wrote: "That's interesting! In my mind's eye, I had never seen anything but Native Americans. I will have to redo the mental artwork for this rhyme."

It stands to reason that for an Englishwoman like Agatha Christie, Indian would mean a person from India rather than a Native American.


message 14: by Junta (new)

Junta Manny wrote: "Junta wrote: "Manny, curious to read your paper, but the link doesn't seem to work for me."

Junta, thank you for pointing that out! Not sure how it got broken... anyway, I have fixed it again."


No worries Manny! I shall read it soon.


message 15: by Vera (new)

Vera (GirlySunglasses) The title in Brazilian Portuguese (at least the one I read 30 years ago) could be translated as "The Case Of The Ten Little Black Boys".

That was the 1st Agatha Christie book I bought - borrowed from a friend. Started as soon as I got home from school and didn't stop until I reached the end. That was the book that made me fall in love with reading and will forever be my favorite.


message 16: by Manny (new)

Manny Vera wrote: "The title in Brazilian Portuguese (at least the one I read 30 years ago) could be translated as "The Case Of The Ten Little Black Boys".

That was the 1st Agatha Christie book I bought - borrowed f..."


That was the original English title too...


message 17: by David (new)

David Cerruti Have you seen this paper?
“Vocabulary Changes in Agatha Christie’s Mysteries as an Indication of Dementia: A Case Study”
ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/gh/Lanca...


message 18: by Manny (new)

Manny David wrote: "Have you seen this paper?
“Vocabulary Changes in Agatha Christie’s Mysteries as an Indication of Dementia: A Case Study”
ftp://ftp.cs.toronto.edu/pub/gh/Lanca..."


Not the deepest piece of literary analysis I've seen, but still very interesting. Thanks!


message 19: by Sofia (new)

Sofia ...but is it murder than most better mysteries?


message 20: by Manny (new)

Manny Oh, definitely! If you're looking for something murd, this is one of the murdest books I know.

(Note: French readers looking for merde will be disappointed).


message 21: by Nandakishore (new)

Nandakishore Varma Free wrote: "Nandakishore wrote: "Manny wrote: "That's interesting! In my mind's eye, I had never seen anything but Native Americans. I will have to redo the mental artwork for this rhyme."

It stands to reason..."


That is for Americans. For the English, an Indian means, first and foremost, a native of India.


message 22: by Kavita (new)

Kavita Free wrote: "I think that is 21st century reason. In Agatha's day native Americans were substantially referred to as Indians; like in Cowboys and .......... "

No, they weren't! Most of the world referred to Native Americans as "Red Indians", which quickly became a pejorative term. Indians were and still remain citizens of India.


message 23: by Manny (new)

Manny Well, I'm not so sure about this. British kids also used to like playing Cowboys and Indians (not "Red Indians").


message 24: by Nandakishore (new)

Nandakishore Varma Manny wrote: "Well, I'm not so sure about this. British kids also used to like playing Cowboys and Indians (not "Red Indians")."

Well, any educted British person would know that Americans called the natives "Indians", I guess. But to a person of Agatha's generation, what would the term "Indian" primarily mean? I would say it would be an inhabitant of the Indian subcontinent.


message 25: by Sofia (new)

Sofia What's the context, sorry, the characterization, if appropriate?


message 26: by 7jane (new)

7jane In Finnish, I first read this book with the title "Ten Little N-boys", but later versions have changed it to less eyebrow-raising "And None [Of Them] Survived". 8)


message 27: by Miriam (new)

Miriam 7jane wrote: "In Finnish, I first read this book with the title "Ten Little N-boys", but later versions have changed it to less eyebrow-raising "And None [Of Them] Survived". 8)"

As pointed out in comment 2, that kind of gives the ending away :(


message 28: by Sofia (new)

Sofia Thanks :'( (Just kiddin' ya)


message 29: by Jared (new)

Jared I was curios about the title too. I agree that from Christie's British perspective, Indians would more than likely refer to people from India, especially given the historical context where India was seeking independence form British rule at the time and India was in the minds of many British at the time but so were the preludes of WW2.

Nevertheless, apparently it was re-named to "And Then There Were None" only for America publication and later adapted in 1946 for Broadway performance (in America) and 1964 paperback book as "Ten Little Indians". Therefore, given this context, the term Indians would definitely refer to Native Americans. To lend further weight to the semantic, the original rhyme was called "Ten Little Injuns", by a songwriter Septimus Winner in 1868 which was then later adapted as "Ten Little Niggers" possibly by Frank J. Green in 1869 and then of course to original title of the book. So it looks like the movie adaptation that Nandakishore referred to really got it wrong when they depicted the figures as India Natives.

Sources:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lit...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_The...


message 30: by Jared (new)

Jared Actually according to this source, the play actually first appeared in June of 1944. Maybe I'll have to submit a correction to Wikipedia.

http://www.playbill.com/production/te...


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