notgettingenough ’s review of The Second Sex > Likes and Comments

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message 1: by notgettingenough (last edited Sep 02, 2010 04:53AM) (new)

notgettingenough Alan. You are so sweet. This is about my favourite review, you've made me very happy voting for it. It would have been so depressing if MeNeither had to be the one....

But um, I believe saving you by jumping off tall buildings was mentioned. Please be careful. If at all possible stay on the ground. Stay at home. In bed.


message 2: by Alan (new)

Alan wish I could


message 3: by notgettingenough (last edited Oct 25, 2010 12:55PM) (new)

notgettingenough Hey Brian. An unsolicited vote!! I'm so excited. And quite timely...

Yesterday I spent the day with Sarah-Louise who is a strong independent girl in her early thirties. Like me, she would like to call herself a peopleist – that’s opposed to a feminist or any other ists that make much of a particular sin.

‘In my opinion,’ she said to me, ‘girls these days want –‘ and she stopped looking for the right words. I thought she was going to say, in context of talking about equality, that they want less than equality. In fact she continued ‘want more than equality’.

She had a phone call the day before from a friend who was traumatised by a date. Evidently the guy treated her to the cinema, but then expected her to pay half the restaurant bill. Fancy.

In her observation, her peers want to have a job, a career, but they also want a husband who is – and this is important – going to earn more than they do and that it is this husband’s salary that is going to pay for the family, the administration of the household etc. Their earnings will be like their pin money. As she pointed out this is a strange form of over-equality that becomes less than equality and then more than. The whole idea of equality has been lost.

She was further of the opinion that in the UK, lots of girls planned their families around the idea of getting amazing amounts of paid leave. They take a job for 6 months, have a baby, get a year’s paid leave, come back for some months, another baby, another year’s leave. It is not what the provisions were for in the first place. It cripples small businesses. She works for small businesses, so I guess she gets to observe these processes.

She pointed out also that there is some provision for being able to leave work to look after kids (etc?) but that in practice only mothers are allowed to take it and that they often exploit it.

I guess all this is just human nature. Why stop at equality when you could get more? Especially when it is nigh impossible for anybody to even dare question what is happening, because this is to be labelled sexist, as both of us are. Yet like me, she thinks it is these girls who are being sexist. Odd, isn't it?


message 4: by Whitaker (new)

Whitaker notgettingenough wrote: "Why stop at equality when you could get more? Especially when it is nigh impossible for anybody to even dare question what is happening, because this is to be labelled sexist, as both of us are. Yet like me, she thinks it is these girls who are being sexist. Odd, isn't it? "

So with you on this! Plus you get an unsolicited vote.

(Funny how I agee with you more often than not.)


message 5: by notgettingenough (last edited Nov 30, 2010 01:00PM) (new)

notgettingenough Whitaker wrote: "notgettingenough wrote: "Why stop at equality when you could get more? Especially when it is nigh impossible for anybody to even dare question what is happening, because this is to be labelled sexist. Odd, isn't it? "

So with you on this! Plus you get an unsolicited vote.

(Funny how I agee with you more often than not.) ..."


Funny you should make that last observation. I was having a discussion with Manny the other day about whom I think is genuinely free thinking. While I was mulling this over, Manny said surely I must think Whitaker is. You were already my first three thoughts, but you DO seem to agree with me so often that I was a bit concerned I was being partial. But ummm, surely not....

I'm glad some blokes have felt brave enough to weather the feminist cold weather front and vote for this - you didn't feel a chill in the air as you pressed the vote button, did you?!...I THINK around the time I posted it a couple of women defriended me. It will be interesting to see if there is a female out there who could bring herself to vote for it.


message 6: by Whitaker (new)

Whitaker notgettingenough wrote: "You were already my first three thoughts"

Wow, high praise indeed. Thanks. I'm ...wow...

notgettingenough wrote: "It will be interesting to see if there is a female out there who could bring herself to vote for it."

LOL!


notgettingenough Whitaker wrote: "notgettingenough wrote: "It will be interesting to see if there is a female out there who could bring herself to vote for it."

LOL! ..."


Update 1 December. Hey! Two girls have voted for this review. Now isn't it in the spirit of this review, not to mention positive discrimination and feminism that these votes should count for extra?! Come on goodreads, get with the program.


message 8: by Alan (new)

Alan well I voted cuz you were soliciting on the corner, and when it was just a cartoon, now I'm feeling the chill..
You certainly have a point Not, re the way the work some men do isn't counted in the tally, but the Mum's work thing still stands I think.
Besides I can't do DIY for crap, and my wife earns more than me (she's a teacher, I'm a librarian).


message 9: by Mommalibrarian (new)

Mommalibrarian we may have tilted further in favor of women than you find fair but things were really bad for women in the past and the feminist movement in it's outrageous manner moved the discussion. Married women do not have to quit working. Pregnant women do not have to quit working. Women are even allowed to vote! It took some outrageous behavior to make this happen. I have not read the book so can't speak to the ideas therein.


message 10: by notgettingenough (last edited Dec 09, 2010 10:34PM) (new)

notgettingenough Mommalibrarian wrote: "we may have tilted further in favor of women than you find fair but things were really bad for women in the past and the feminist movement in it's outrageous manner moved the discussion. Married w..."

Oh, I don't think that at all. For a start, I think that the rest of the world counts, not just women in the first world, so conditions for most women are utterly appalling and unfortunately in the first world while women get their extra weeks' maternity leave we tend still to consider what happens to third world women as 'cultural'. And third world women in the first world are often not protected at all by first world law for the same reason. What happens to them is just cultural.

Ignoring that, and staying just with first world women who are obviously much better off, there are lots of ways in which we can question the idea of equality, but often it is women who bolster the status quo and defend the things that make the world sexist for them, while denying this is so.

Taking advantage of laws there were made for a good reason in order to behave badly, which it sounds like these girls are doing is really something to shake one's head about, but it has nothing to do with the idea that things have been tilted in favour of women, it has to do with human nature being sometimes despicable and taking advantage. There are laws which women can attempt to use for revenge rather than for the purpose they are for, rape laws, divorce laws. The laws aren't necessarily at fault, I imagine, just the nature of the people using them...Not to mention the idea we have these days that litigation is the way to go. Sue, get things with lawyers.

Ie I'm not suggesting that women are the only ones who use laws for the wrong reasons. But the idea that it is feminist to behave like these women, well. Count me out of feminism in that case...


message 11: by Paul (last edited Dec 27, 2010 03:53AM) (new)

Paul Bryant Hey, Not - the Assange story sure is a strange one, in some ways a new version of Monica Lewinsky i.e. were these women stooges or agents or what? But here's the new question :

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/12/as...

"Assange had sex with both within a week, police documents show. The women realized that when the younger woman contacted the older one seeking to get in touch with Assange. They went to police together, not to file criminal complaint, but to seek advice, Borgstrom said. A policewoman who heard their stories decided there was reason to suspect they were victims of sex crimes and handed over the case to a prosecutor."

Emphasis added by me. What's your interpretation of what went on here?

Also, I would love you to review this :

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/20...


message 12: by Paige (new)

Paige "But the idea that it is feminist to behave like these women, well. Count me out of feminism in that case."

I'm not sure who is supposedly considering behavior like that feminist? I know I certainly don't, and I definitely identify with "feminism." But to me, feminism is about equality of all people. It's just called "feminism" because at the time the crusade began, it was the females who ranked so far below, so they had a lot of catching up to do. And we are still behind in a lot of ways. An anecdotal story about some haughty woman being all miserable about being asked to pay for half a dinner doesn't do much to persuade me that women are "more than equal." So some priss threw a fit--women are still lagging behind men in many areas, frequently deal with double standards, and live in a society that favors masculinity. And, as you say, that's not even to mention the horrible state of women living outside the "first world." I am sure you would agree that those women have quite a lot of catching up to do to compare with the men in their respective cultures. In recent history, being "feminist" HAS meant being "peopleist." All the feminists I know believe that the society we live in hurts men as well as women--often times in more subtle yet equally or even more harmful ways.

It's odd because I consider myself to be very "feminist" and you say that "feminism is sexist" and to count you out--but we have pretty much the exact same view of things. Labels can be misleading...

Anyway, you would probably be interested in Stiffed by Susan Faludi. It's about how "feminist ideas" have adversely affected men in America... written by a "feminist." It sounds up your alley.


message 13: by Kiandra (new)

Kiandra @notgettingenough Those women are being sexist. They are upholding misogynistic gender roles where men are expected to support women. These gendered expectations harm both men and women, and are not in fact consistent with feminism. I don't think this means they want more than equality, they have internalised misogynistic gender roles to the point where they don't see where the inequalities are.


message 14: by Kiandra (new)

Kiandra In response to the original post, we can't know what happened. Your assumption that the allegations of rape were politically motivated might well be true, but then again, a rape case that's easy to prove is rare. Society tends to question the victim more than the rapist in many cases. Be careful about making judgements when you don't know the facts.

As for the cartoon, that is an example of the gate-keeper phenomenon which modern-day, sex-positive feminism is trying to counter.

Feminism isn't sexist. Chivalry is misogynistic and should have ended a long time ago. You are citing examples of phenomenon that many feminists are trying to counter. You are not proving that feminism is sexist, rather that there is still a long way to go towards gender equality.


message 15: by LondonFog (new)

LondonFog I used to think like you. But then I actually studied feminism. Have you?

There's a reason why it seems "perfectly acceptable to kick men in the guts." They're portrayed by the media as "overly powerful." So they can take a few hits here and there, right? (This is, obviously, incorrect. But again, the media exaggerates the image of men to the point where I've seen even MEN joke about how piggish men are in sitcoms and that's "perfectly funny, cause it's true.." right? ... Not.

Feminism is not about being sexist. It's about observing the and why the culture only focuses on the heterosexual male perspective. You should really look into it, cause it's concerned with ALL gender issues (including homosexual male/female exclusions in our media, men who suffer from Patriarchy, etc.)

I'm going to give you link to how Feminists observe the control the media has over the masses. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CrmRxG...

It's just my two cents. Since Feminism tends to get a bad rep from the media itself (which tends to confuse them with misandrists).


message 17: by Stephen M (new)

Stephen M Hey, thanks for writing this. I'm taking another feminism class now and it's good to hear a conflicting perspective.


message 18: by Leajk (new)

Leajk wtf. trolling? how can this be the highest ranked review? what does Simone de Beauvoir and Assange even got to do with each other? she was a prominent philospher and writer in France in a time when women were not allowed to vote there, and who promoted equal rights for women in society.

but if you want to into the dubious claim that all feminists hate men and want to charge them with rape constantly, did you happen to notice that you own quote mentions feminists making "statements questioning the nature and purpose of the prosecution"?

leavng the Assange mess aside, men in Sweden don't pay for my dinners (unless we're friends/a couple then we'll probably take turns) or lift my bagage unasked, and I'm totally fine with that, much as I guess they are fine with me not lifting their bags.


message 19: by Manasvi (new)

Manasvi mudgal Two of the most discussed issues I have had with my friends. I have supported Assange in his pursuits and I believe there have been people more deserving of noble peace prize than President Obama. Second, lately there have been certain events in India, which have made feminism less of a fight for equality and more of a man haters's club. In a recent article I read by a prominent writer here,she said men should hang their heads in shame, I wonder, why should we who have always did our best to safeguard women feel bad for what others have done. I believe there are more men wanting to understand what women have to say, than the ones silencing their voice. However it's a less informed opinion of mine, I certainly need more of the counter perspective.


message 20: by Paige (new)

Paige I wonder, why should we who have always did our best to safeguard women feel bad for what others have done

I personally don't know that you "should" feel bad for anything, but what she means is probably that
1) well, personally, I'm a woman and I feel bad about what men to do to women because I have feelings and they are sad when half of the population is oppressed based on their biology. I'm white and I feel bad, guilty, and shameful about what white culture does to minorities, what the United States does to countries in the Middle East. I feel bad because I have such a large amount of sympathy and empathy for people everywhere that when rights are violated, I feel bad. I think this is pretty normal. Perhaps you too feel bad and you think that feeling bad about it negates anything that you personally have to do with it; feeling bad is enough--why should you take any responsibility for what "others" do, for what the prevailing culture says, if you vehemently disagree with it? I was at this point for a long time and I felt defensive when minorities would attack "whites." "But I would never oppress someone or hurt them! That's not fair!!" I would think. I don't feel that way any longer, though. This is because...
2) This stuff (rape, oppression, violence) happens because those in power allow it to happen. Those with privilege in society let it happen. If men policed men and if men who were really on women's "side" spoke up for them against other men, there would be a huge decrease in these kinds of things happening. When a man makes a sexist comment, often other men present will laugh or agree; if they personally disagree with the sentiment, it is not often that they actually voice their opinion by saying, "That is sexist, false, and wrong, and you are hurting your mother, sister, daughter, yourself, and society by spouting that kind of view point." Hardly do they get up and leave. It is HARD. It is hard for me to make waves with my friends if someone makes a racist comment to me. It's hard for me to look someone in the eye who has just made me dinner and say, "That's racist and that's not cool." It's hard to say, "I feel uncomfortable being around you when you say things like that." Hopefully I get to a point where it's not so hard. But I think that's why the author of the article said that men should hang their heads in shame--even if they don't abuse directly, even if they are opposed to it and would never do it themselves, all too often they support a power structure that does allow it, that supports it and teaches it and spreads it and engenders it in everyone.

I hope I haven't come off as brash or short with you. Usually I like to spend a lot more time writing these types of comments because it's often a sensitive issue. Unfortunately I have to work in just a few minutes so I tried to condense my initial response. I love talking about this stuff though, so please feel free to message me here on Goodreads or even email me (paige.awesome [at] gmail) if you are interested in discussing this further. I don't have all the answers but I do enjoy a discourse with someone who cares about these issues and is willing to ask questions and listen to answers. Maybe we can learn from each other :)


message 21: by Yeliz (last edited Sep 08, 2014 07:10AM) (new)

Yeliz This is such a sad review. Exampling women expoliting the law is not an argument against feminism. It is simply absurd. Just like we occasionaly see a man beaten up by his wife, giving a statement to a reporter on the news. The world needs feminism. I need feminism.

You might call yourself a humanist, anti-war/anti-violence activist, a peoplist etc. These are not enough to gain the co-existance right for the women.
Woman needs her acknowledgement as an autonomous human being (not a sex) to begin with.
I know for sure the majority of the world needs feminism and I am not sure first world countries are above gender equality either. Woman is still sexualized, shelved, contained, presented, subjected to daily sexism.
Women are murder victims in my country because they are women. Women are sold/bought not far from here. Rights are not simply given, they are taken as the movement did with women. And you cannot simply abolish thousands of years old sexism with changing the law. "There you go, you have the same rights now stop it" does not do the magic I'm sorry. You need feminism a long way to go, slowly teaching, gradually changing minds.


message 22: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Paula HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


message 23: by Rodrigo (new)

Rodrigo Paula Ok.


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