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On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society
The good news is that most soldiers are loath to kill. But armies have developed sophisticated ways of overcoming this instinctive aversion. And contemporary civilian society, particularly the media, replicates the army's conditioning techniques, and, according to Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's thesis, is responsible for our rising rate of murder among the young.
Upon its initia...more
Upon its initia...more
Paperback, 377 pages
Published
June 22nd 2009
by Back Bay Books
(first published 1995)
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As a combat vet myself, I can't say I learned anything new from this book as I have lived it all myself,. Yet I strongly suggest you all read it carefully.It will enlighten you to a very important aspect of humanity and the survival instinct that few understand. There is a price for killing and there is a very effective "military machine" to teach the acceptance and support of killing that is a thousand years or more old.That mind altering thousand year plus mind forming machine is set...more
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I first became aware of On Killing when Tony Blauer referenced it at one of his PDR seminars, and have heard a fair amount of good press since then. It’s one of those books that martial artists/self-defense junkies seem to like to talk about, or at least, claim to have read, and I figured it was time I finally saw what all of the fuss is about.
On Killing is the first of Col. Grossman’s works on “killology”, which he defines as “the scholarly study of the destructive act, just as sexolo...more
On Killing is the first of Col. Grossman’s works on “killology”, which he defines as “the scholarly study of the destructive act, just as sexolo...more
People don't like to kill each other. But they might start changing their minds....
No but seriously, this is a great read. I mean, if you're interested in how people are conditioned to kill, and how they actually behave after they are conditioned to kill. Honestely, I have a hard time believing some of the stuff he asserts, but I think there's a lot of valuable information in there that you wouldn't find anywhere else.
The part I love is when he examines the history of u...more
No but seriously, this is a great read. I mean, if you're interested in how people are conditioned to kill, and how they actually behave after they are conditioned to kill. Honestely, I have a hard time believing some of the stuff he asserts, but I think there's a lot of valuable information in there that you wouldn't find anywhere else.
The part I love is when he examines the history of u...more
Grossman, a former Army Ranger (who, ironically, has never actually killed anyone) collects myriad stories from those who have killed, and comments on society's collective aversion to the action. In wwii, only 15% of men were willing to fire their weapons, in korea it rose to 50%, in vietnam, the american military was able to persuade 90% of combat troops to fire on the enemy. Grossman comments on how the military was able to accomplish this, and discusses impacts of the operant condition, and...more
Ok I loved and hated this book. I guess you could say I hated it because the truth hurts but I loved it because It REALLY opened my eyes to how Brandon (my hubby) feels everyday. And it really helped me understand him and the thoughts that he has more clearly . I think It was let down a lot though because I was really hoping that it would tell me how to handel all of this and it doesn't it only explains the effects not how to deal. So in some ways fantastic others a let down. I do recommend othe...more
"On Killing" is a fascinating book that details through heavily documented research the effects of killing during war on the individual. It's a dense read, but engrossing, and worth reading for anybody who is curious about the affect of war on the average soldier, or curious about why the Vietnam War stands out as such a stark and glaring watermark on combat.
Unfortunately, the last chapter of the book has three notable flaws. One, it blames violence on media, and not on par...more
Unfortunately, the last chapter of the book has three notable flaws. One, it blames violence on media, and not on par...more
In his book On Killing, Grossman uses interviews, personal accounts, published narratives, academic studies, and a few statistics to look at the psychology of killing in combat - what he calls killology. He looks mostly at military techniques developed to overcome human aversion to the innate resistance to taking a life. This is a problem police officers encounter in deadly force situations - ones in which they must draw their weapons and shoot a bad guy.
Grossman begins early in the bo...more
Grossman begins early in the bo...more
The book should not be taken as absolute, peer reviewed fact. While it starts out in an academic fashion and explains the basis for its theories, it later derails into chapter-long rants and moans about how American society is to blame for its treatment of returning veterans of the Vietnam war. Exaggerating and making very emotional, biased arguments.
And if that was not enough Grossman, decides to squander his credentials by attempting to perpetuate the disproved myth that violent vide...more
And if that was not enough Grossman, decides to squander his credentials by attempting to perpetuate the disproved myth that violent vide...more
A well-written, well-researched book that I think everyone, military and non-military alike, should read. Grossman provides amazing insight into the minds of our soldiers both past and present. I feel like we owe it to our armed forces to understand better what they do for us, especially the Vietnam vets. After reading this book, you will never look at a soldier the same way again. I want to let every Vietnam vet know how sorry I am for the reception they received upon coming back to the states....more
My best friend is currently at Basic Training for the Army, and she loaned this book to me before she left. I'm really, really glad that she did. This book was a very important one for me to read, and now was the right time for me to read it. Far from being a long essay of the horrors of war, this book deals intelligently and sensitively with the act of taking a human life and what it takes to overcome the inherent instinct to NOT kill another human being so that a soldier can do his job and sur...more
Four stars - I didn't 'like' this book, but I think it's an important read. The first part, about human psychology and warfare, was fascinating. I couldn't finish the latter part of the book about human atrocities, however. Just didn't have the stomach for it.
My only complaint: I wish the author would have included citations for his many statements about human nature. Specifically, on page 6-7 he describes the 'Soldier's Options' to fight, flight, posture, or submit. I had never heard...more
My only complaint: I wish the author would have included citations for his many statements about human nature. Specifically, on page 6-7 he describes the 'Soldier's Options' to fight, flight, posture, or submit. I had never heard...more
Lt.Col. Grossman is developing a field of study he has termed 'killology'. As you can probably guess, this is the study of killing. His book here is concerned with the psychological and subsequent social effects of learning to kill. It is well researched and written in a careful and sensitive tone, he maintains a respect for his subjects--mostly military personnel.
He begins with a detailed analysis of the inhibition against killing humans and its effects on battlefields. This leads to...more
He begins with a detailed analysis of the inhibition against killing humans and its effects on battlefields. This leads to...more
This is a book worth reading. It gets repetitive sometimes when the author is trying to emphasize or prove a point, but it really is fascinating. It's a study of what happens to the body physically and psychologically when it is forced to kill another human. Plus, it studies what happens to soldiers when they are forced to kill in combat, and under what circumstances that the innate resistance we have to kill others can be overcome.
It attacks violence in the media, too, which I want to ...more
It attacks violence in the media, too, which I want to ...more
Marjanne
rated it
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review of another edition
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review of another edition
Recommends it for:
Soldiers, politicians, anyone who supports a soldier
Recommended to Marjanne by:
My Aaron
This book was very interesting. I was not as up to date as I was expecting (it was written in the mid-1990's), but it is still relevant. It was interesting to read how people/soldiers are desensitized, and how that is at play in our media (and even worse now than it was when the book was written). Being the wife of a veteran I felt like it gave me some insight into some of the things my husband has experienced, and I hope it helps me to understand and support him better. This book should be read...more
Fascinating subject and analysis. A friend of mine was in the USMC and told me a lot about the ways in which the military de-sensitizes soldiers to the act of killing. One would likely never realize how "difficult" it is to actually get people to kill, let alone WANT to kill. It seems the USMC and military in general have found the combination to the lock on this Pandora's Box. The problem becomes, like all Pandora's Boxes, you don't simply get to close the lid once it is open.
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I read this book on recommendation from a Navy SEAL friend. The book is actually required reading as part of the Navy SEAL training curriculum.
Don't miss the ten-page "Introduction to the Paperback Edition". In those fascinating ten pages, the author basically gives the reader a concise summary of everything you need to know on the topic. The rest of book actually just restates in greater detail (sometimes waaay too much detail) the information presented so well in this ...more
Don't miss the ten-page "Introduction to the Paperback Edition". In those fascinating ten pages, the author basically gives the reader a concise summary of everything you need to know on the topic. The rest of book actually just restates in greater detail (sometimes waaay too much detail) the information presented so well in this ...more
This was a powerful, moving, and informative book. It is a book of "killology," the author says at one point. I'm always drawn to topics that are the least comfortable to consider, and people killing is certainly uncomfortable.
The stories in the book, the experiences of the Vietnam vets (as opposed to Korean, WWII, etc.) had me literally crying. I would encourage any of my fellow progressives, liberals, left-wing radicals to read this book. I wouldn't say it's pro-war, thou...more
The stories in the book, the experiences of the Vietnam vets (as opposed to Korean, WWII, etc.) had me literally crying. I would encourage any of my fellow progressives, liberals, left-wing radicals to read this book. I wouldn't say it's pro-war, thou...more
Don't let the title scare you off - this is a great book for anyone that has served in the military or law enforcement, or for friends and family of those who have. This is what I would call practical psychology, not the normal psycho-babble, but a real honest look at the effects of justifiable killing on "good guys", the enabling factors that lead to horrendous atrocities like the Holocaust, and the effects of our bloodthirsty entertainment industry on our youth and how we are are ina...more
This was a very interesting book about an important and timely subject that has received very little study: What are the effects, personal and cultural, of training young soldiers in how to kill their fellow humans?
It'd be easy to just shrug and say, well, there's been warfare as long as there's been people, so why does it suddenly matter now? But Grossman points out that from the earliest records to as recently as WWII, the majority of soldiers never actually used their weapons. S...more
It'd be easy to just shrug and say, well, there's been warfare as long as there's been people, so why does it suddenly matter now? But Grossman points out that from the earliest records to as recently as WWII, the majority of soldiers never actually used their weapons. S...more
This would have earned 5 stars if it weren't for the final chapter. Mr Grossman does a wonderful job using first-hand accounts and quoting work done by other researchers and ties it all together to explain not only the horrors of war/combat but also the psychological toll on those involved.
I admit that I've always appreciated the sacrifices of our men and women of the military, but this work has skyrocketed by reverence and admiration for those in the military. What a sacrifice the...more
I admit that I've always appreciated the sacrifices of our men and women of the military, but this work has skyrocketed by reverence and admiration for those in the military. What a sacrifice the...more
An important, fascinating, sometimes disturbing book on the psychology behind killing, specifically in wartime.
A fact that restores your faith in the human race: most people, when ordered to kill their fellow human beings on the front lines of war, will simply choose not to do so. 80-85% become "non-shooters". Even when forced to shoot, they will intentionally miss rather than shoot at a fellow human.
The military since Vietnam has used psychological condition...more
A fact that restores your faith in the human race: most people, when ordered to kill their fellow human beings on the front lines of war, will simply choose not to do so. 80-85% become "non-shooters". Even when forced to shoot, they will intentionally miss rather than shoot at a fellow human.
The military since Vietnam has used psychological condition...more
Dave Grossman’s book, On Killing, is not a light read. Nor is it a particularly enjoyable one. I knew all that going in.
So why did I read it? Because although I knew it would not be an enjoyable read, I felt that it was a necessary one.
I write thrillers. I write about elite warriors, despite the fact that I have never fired a shot in anger, despite the fact that I have never taken a human life. I don’t see this as a deterrent, for I know with certainty that I would not be able to ...more
So why did I read it? Because although I knew it would not be an enjoyable read, I felt that it was a necessary one.
I write thrillers. I write about elite warriors, despite the fact that I have never fired a shot in anger, despite the fact that I have never taken a human life. I don’t see this as a deterrent, for I know with certainty that I would not be able to ...more
My mom, of all people, recommended this book to me. I thought it might help me gain some insight into some of my incarcerated clients. It didn't really do that, since most of the focus of the book is on war. But it was nevertheless very interesting. It actually allowed me to feel a little more hope for mankind to find out that militaries have a hard time getting soldiers to kill. Soldiers will do things like shooting above the enemy's heads to avoid killing another human being. The author has th...more
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What an excellent take on the human disease of war. It takes a military man to present a pacifist message in no uncertain terms.
Lt Cl Grossman analyses "firing rates" from modern wars and concludes that basically, rather than a primitive "Killer Instinct" residing in us all, the human race actually would have been unable to evolve to its present size without some sort of genetic predisposition, to the contrary, of altruism and disgust at the thought of harming a fellow huma...more
Lt Cl Grossman analyses "firing rates" from modern wars and concludes that basically, rather than a primitive "Killer Instinct" residing in us all, the human race actually would have been unable to evolve to its present size without some sort of genetic predisposition, to the contrary, of altruism and disgust at the thought of harming a fellow huma...more
Not a fun read, certainly, but fascinating in terms of painting a behind-the-scenes view of history and military psychology. The stats are pretty crazy, too. I.e. in WWI there was a non-firing rate of ~85% (only 15% of soldiers would fire their weapons at the enemy, even in the face of imminent death to themselves or their friends). By the Vietnam War, the non-firing rate was only 5-10%. That was the result of intentional and specific training and indoctrination on the part of the military.
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Despite its very grim subject, this is an important book. I learned a lot. For someone raised on schwarzenegger and chuck norris this was an eye opening look at war. It's weird that death and killing should be so constant and ubiquitous, but also be so shunned and taboo in our culture. Anyway, if I would going to make any criticism of the book it would be that the author seems to have patched it together from several works he'd completed over time... he tends to repeat himself; sometimes wor...more
The cover is a little scary looking but this made me really appreciate what soldiers go through, and I mean that. Killing is potentially the most psychologically disturbing event a person can experience. These soldiers are people, there might be a couple of them that like it, 2% is what the book says but the remainder struggle with it for the rest of their lives. I also have been reading in the Book of Mormon about some of the battles and the behavior and context matches up to what was descri...more
The majority of this book was absolutely fascinating, and I really enjoyed the commentary and analysis of the pyschological forces and barriers involved in getting the average person to be able to kill in combat. The discussion on the pyschological costs of doing so were similarly well-done.
Unfortunately, the author concludes his book by drawing comparisons from the military's psychological training to the graphic video games, TV and music in the civilian world. There may be a ca...more
Unfortunately, the author concludes his book by drawing comparisons from the military's psychological training to the graphic video games, TV and music in the civilian world. There may be a ca...more
Excellent book. Easy to read, for anyone, and the ideas in it are both frightening and important. A must-read for anyone who works in a field where they might actually have to kill someone one day. Military, Police, Sushi chefs, etc.
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Lt. Col Dave Grossman is the author of On Killing and On Combat as well as several science fiction books.
In 1998 Lt. Colonel Grossman retired from the military as Professor of Military Science at Arkansas State University. His career includes service in the United States Army as a sergeant in the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division, a platoon leader in the 9th Infantry Division (United States)...more
More about Dave Grossman...
In 1998 Lt. Colonel Grossman retired from the military as Professor of Military Science at Arkansas State University. His career includes service in the United States Army as a sergeant in the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division, a platoon leader in the 9th Infantry Division (United States)...more
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