The Dawkins Delusion? Atheist Fundamentalism And The Denial Of The Divine by Alister McGrath, Joanna Collicutt McGrath

Jun 19, 2011 Marvin rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

A friend of mine told me a story about the first book club he went to in our little desert town. The book to be discussed was The DaVinci Code by Dan Brown. It was a big meeting but only a few were there to discuss the book. The bulk of the attendees were from churches in the area and their sole purpose for attending was to shut down the discussion, an objective which they achieved. The meeting soon degenerated into chaos.

This is typical of my many years of studying various religions and philoso...more

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Sep 21, 2010 Carl rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition Recommends it for: Anyone who has read Dawkins or is interested in the relationship of religion and science

Shelves: christianity, philosophy

So, for some reason this book is coming up pretty high on my Goodreads list, even though it's been a while since I've read it. My review seems a bit like trash talk to me now, esp. seeing as I still haven't actually read Dawkins' book. To be honest, I saw an uncut debate between these two on youtube a while back, and have to admit Dawkins came out on top. Well, it's been a while-- and I just don't trust debates anyway, I think written, relatively sympathetic communication is the best way to work...more So, for some reason this book is coming up pretty high on my Goodreads list, even though it's been a while since I've read it. My review seems a bit like trash talk to me now, esp. seeing as I still haven't actually read Dawkins' book. To be honest, I saw an uncut debate between these two on youtube a while back, and have to admit Dawkins came out on top. Well, it's been a while-- and I just don't trust debates anyway, I think written, relatively sympathetic communication is the best way to work through things. Well, there is a lot more I'd like to dig into re: the thought of both of these thinkers, so I think I will just say that I'm not so sure I stand wholeheartedly behind my review anymore, though I will need to return to this later to be sure. Gosh, I need to not get onto this stuff past midnight when I can't sleep...

Finally finished! A great book. Short, sure, but the last two chapters in particular really dug into the meat of the issues, and the final chapter even got into binary oppositions, deconstruction, and all that other epistemologically and ontologically savvy goodness that Dawkins lacks. Also check out Terry Eagleton's review here:
[http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n20/eagl01_....]
My original review before finishing the book is below.

Here is another link I came across recently, though I haven't had a chance to read it yet-- Willard's critique of Dawkin's The Blind Watchmaker: [http://www.dwillard.org/articles/artv...]

Looks good so far, though definitely feels as though written for a popular audience (meaning, it feels at times as though there could be more meat-- though every time I think that I come across something that really satisfies). I really need to actually get around to reading Dawkins' book. I also really liked Terry Eagleton's review of The God Delusion (which can be found online somewhere-- I'll try to find the link and paste it here). From what I understand, Dawkins jumps into several different fields he is inadequately prepared to discuss, let alone criticize (Christian theology and worldview, philosophy, epistemology, etc), and McGrath and Eagleton are well suited to take him to task for those particular failings. Eagleton, of course, is not a scientist (actually, I don't even know if he is a Christian, but that is beside the point-- I'm more interested in the fact that his background in criticism and philosophy give him the epistemological sophistication and humility which Dawkins lacks), but McGrath is a very appropriate choice for a response, as he not only has degrees in both a science (I believe it was one of the biological sciences) and in theology (at least I think he had a degree-- he may have just studied on his own), but also converted to Christianity from Atheism after pursuing both fields of knowledge.
Again, I really need to read Dawkins' book-- I suspect, from these reviews, that my post-modern-academic heart will scream with outrage at every other word of Dawkins' clumsy logical-positivism, but if I'm going to be outraged anyway, I may as well make sure that I'm outraged at the real thing, and not just some idea. (less)

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Mar 13, 2008 Cheri rated it 1 of 5 stars

Shelves: own, read-in-2008

The McGraths engage in a much more civil debate than Dawkins; I'll give them that. And that IS important. However, they deliberately miss many of the points that Dawkins makes in his book. Their arguments turn into more of a defense of their particular religion (Christianity) than a rebuttal to Dawkins assertions that support a theory that there is no god. Given the brevity of the book, which amounts to little more than a rap on the knuckles for being disrespectful, the McGraths would probably h...more

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Aug 10, 2011 R.P. Bosman rated it 4 of 5 stars

Shelves: christian, theologie

Alister McGrath, a biochemist and Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University, may be Richard Dawkins' most prominent critic. As the author of "Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes and the Meaning of Life," he was interviewed extensively for Dawkins' recent documentary, "The Root of All Evil." Not a frame of these interviews made it into the final edit. Alister McGrath shows that the aggressive rhetoric of Richard Dawkins' books masks a deep insecurity about the public credibility of atheism.

McG...more

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Apr 21, 2008 booklady marked it as possible-purchase · review of another edition

Recommended to booklady by: Chris Taylor

I *probably* won't buy this but I do want to list it because I just learned about it as the Christian answer to Richard Dawkin's "The God Delusion".

When I learn about good sources which answer questions I may want to research/look into later, need a good safe place to jot them down! I do hope to read it, however.

About the McGraths: (from Wikipedia - only used for brief info about them)

Alister McGrath, the primary author, studied chemistry and molecular biophysics at Oxford, and moved on to stud...more

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Feb 28, 2008 Tim rated it 1 of 5 stars Recommends it for: Christians who want to argue with atheists

Shelves: science, unfinishable, christian-fundamental

Hmm.. I only got about 1/3 of the way through this very short book which was a present to me by someone who disagrees with Dawkins' 'God Delusion'...even though they haven't read that book.

Essentially, Dawkins who writes in a fundamental atheist manner in his book 'The God Delusion' and is responded to here in this book by McGrath, a fundamental Christian. There was great potential to hear reasoned debate and response to the Dawkins.

Sadly i could not not appreciate his arguments because he was...more

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Nov 15, 2008 Andy rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

I read this concurrently with The God Delusion, and must say I really appreciated McGrath's tone of patience and reasonableness, even when it was clear he strongly disagreed with Dawkins' arguements. As someone who is examining his beliefs and is fairly open to good arguments, no matter what they are, I found this slim volume helpful as a reminder, while reading Dawkins, that the passion and certainty of the author should not be substitutes for logic and evidence. For what it is intended to be,...more

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Feb 24, 2013 Steve Cann rated it 1 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Oh dear me. I approached this book with an open mind, having recently read the excellent God Delusion, to see if the authors could provide me with a solid argument in defence of religion - and perhaps even give me a hint of proof of the existence of the supernatural deity they cling to.
No chance! This book appears to be the literary equivalent of the proverbial child who has thrown his or her toys out of the pram.

It begins (mistakenly) with repeatedly classing atheist belief as 'dogmatic' (fooli...more Oh dear me. I approached this book with an open mind, having recently read the excellent God Delusion, to see if the authors could provide me with a solid argument in defence of religion - and perhaps even give me a hint of proof of the existence of the supernatural deity they cling to.
No chance! This book appears to be the literary equivalent of the proverbial child who has thrown his or her toys out of the pram.

It begins (mistakenly) with repeatedly classing atheist belief as 'dogmatic' (foolishly firing back the very same accusation most thinking people would level at fundamental religion) and never really lets up from there. Atheism isn't dogmatic or fundamental - it's simply a case of 'opting-in' to reality and accepting what is as IS.
Why the need to add anything else, when reality itself is so beautiful and awe-inspiring.

The authors seem to have read a completely different book to me - I found The God Delusion gentle, intelligent, passionate, well-constructed, and a thorough investigation into what it is that is so seductive about religion. Richard also examines why it's endured for so long, in the face of such overwhelming evidence that supernatural deities don't exist.
It's crystal-clear to me that these deities are simply the product of over-active human imaginations, stemming (often) from childhood indoctrination.

The authors also clearly seem to have desperately searched The God Delusion for any tiny facet that they think they can seize upon to discredit Richard and his book, and all of their arguments are extremely weak indeed and poorly thought out. I'm sorry to say, but the level of writing and intellect on display here is no higher than that of a 12-year-old.
This (tellingly brief) book most certainly would not 'convert' any atheist - I imagine it would have the opposite effect! And yes - you simply just can't argue 'god' into existence.

I don't even class myself as an 'atheist' - why do I need to label myself with a word to describe the lack of belief in something for which I am 99.9999999% certain doesn't exist anyway? 'God' simply doesn't exist outside of language - it's an entirely made-up human construct. Humans created 'god' in their own image - NOT the other way around.

It seems to me from this reactionary book that Richard has certainly made some big waves in religious waters, and has certain 'believers' running scared. What a pity then that they still can't think out of their religious box. They'd be far better off waking up to reality, breaking free of their chains, and living life without the religious blinkers on - knowing it's the ONLY life they'll ever have.
This is the 21st century after all - NOT the Bronze Age. (less)

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Jun 21, 2009 Jess rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Recommended by Chad, and largely appreciated -- not just for the facts, but also for the dispassionate and reasoned tone in which the McGraths go about this task. Not a line-by-line or premise-by-premise refutation of Dawkins' God Delusion, but it does not set out to be. Rather, it addresses a number of issues raised in Dawkins' work and attempts to approach those who hold them "with complete intellectual respect rather than dismissing them as liars, knaves and charlatans" -- an approach he repe...more

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Dec 26, 2010 Danny Washington rated it 1 of 5 stars

Shelves: bothered-to-review

I am an atheist, though I certainly do not consider myself militant. I also believe the best way to learn is to hear two sides of an argument.

If "The God Delusion" did anything for me, it made me proud of being an atheist, and finally allowed me to embrace it as a force for good, and of intellectual betterment. This book just pissed me off.

Firstly, these writers are hypocrites. Here is a sentence I've made up to illustrate why. "Dawkins believes HE is right, and will not budge either way. This...more I am an atheist, though I certainly do not consider myself militant. I also believe the best way to learn is to hear two sides of an argument.

If "The God Delusion" did anything for me, it made me proud of being an atheist, and finally allowed me to embrace it as a force for good, and of intellectual betterment. This book just pissed me off.

Firstly, these writers are hypocrites. Here is a sentence I've made up to illustrate why. "Dawkins believes HE is right, and will not budge either way. This is fundamentally against the principles of science, and he is a jolly unpleasant man. He is also WRONG. Trust me, I know. He is wrong. I'm telling you." I found them to be far more dogmatic. Indeed I think at times in "The God Delusion" Richard Dawkins is bending over backwards not to be labelled as dogmatist, something which these two apparently decided wasn't necessary. I should say, and anyone who has read Dawkins will know, he is the first to admit that he bases his beliefs on evidence, and would be willing to believe in a God at the drop of a hat, were he shown convincing evidence. Religion all to often does not share this attitude.

Secondly (and again hypocritical) they criticize Dawkins for not giving enough evidence and being too anecdotal. There are more or less NO studies, statistics, quotes or any other types of research referenced in this book. They have a reading list at the back (made up of vastly better material) but provide absolutely no evidence to most of their points.

Thirdly, the arguments are tired, thin and recycled - exactly what they call Dawkins' arguments. There are other points, but it basically amounts to the same old theological tricks of backing people like Dawkins into an unfair and underhanded corner. "Can you prove there isn't a God? Aha! Isn't there violence that isn't based on religion? Aha! Would the world be at peace without religion? Aha! Does Darwin disprove God? Aha! Aren't some scientists religious? Aha" etc etc.. It's simply taking advantage of Dawkins noble belief in scientific evidence. After all, I can't tell a theologian that there isn't a God. How can I know for sure. But I'm sufficiently convinced there isn't. Just like they are convinced there is a God. Do not tell me I am wrong, just because neither of us can prove our beliefs. That isn't right.

There is also plenty of quoting Dawkins out of context and ignoring his stronger arguments. This book is an embarrassment, and far from being a competent critic of "The God Delusion". It makes their theology sound silly, petulant and outdated. If a better book can come along and take on Dawkins with better material, I will happily read it.(less)

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May 05, 2010 Wendy rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: books-i-read-to-learn-stuff

I find it sad in our day and age, that most people, believe what they believe, and if they come across someone who believes differently, well, THEY are automatically the crackpot. So I find in the pretty much polarized views of this book.

Atheists pretty much all think this book stinks, while the 'others' be they Christian, religious or just looking for a reason to dissect Dawkins book rate it much higher and full of insight?

Who is right? who is wrong? Are we all just entitled to our own opinio...more

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Mar 07, 2010 Dave rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

This short book offers a to-the-point critique of what could arguably be deemed atheist fundamentalism's bible, Richard Dawkin's The God Delusion. A Terry Eagleton quote from the end of the book sums it up well: "Such is Dawkin's unruffled scientific impartiality that in a book of almost four hundred pages, he can scarcely bring himself to concede that a single human benefit has flowed from religious faith, a view which is as a priori improbable as it is empirically false." I appreciated McGrath...more

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Aug 02, 2010 Renay rated it 1 of 5 stars · review of another edition

i found this book to be quite horrible to read. to me it is obvious that the author - whether christian or not, atheist or not - simply needed an excuse to attack and insult dawkins, and this book was his excuse.
rather agressively, the author constantly attacks and degrades richard dawkins and his book "the god delusion".
in the book's introduction, mcgrath suggests that his book, "the dawkins delusion", will be short and to the point - arguing against dawkin's god delusion. it is definately shor...more

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Feb 27, 2010 Philip rated it 4 of 5 stars

Shelves: christian, non-fiction

First off I'll admit to not having read The God Delusion itself. So until then, my 4/5 rating is provisional; 3.5/5 would probably be more accurate, and giving 4/5 instead of 3/5 shifts the average rating in that direction.

The absolutely fundamental point for anybody thinking of reading this book to consider is that it is NOT a plug for Christianity. The book is very short (my edition is 78 pages - 12 of those pages are notes, references and further reading) and focuses on refuting the points Da...more First off I'll admit to not having read The God Delusion itself. So until then, my 4/5 rating is provisional; 3.5/5 would probably be more accurate, and giving 4/5 instead of 3/5 shifts the average rating in that direction.

The absolutely fundamental point for anybody thinking of reading this book to consider is that it is NOT a plug for Christianity. The book is very short (my edition is 78 pages - 12 of those pages are notes, references and further reading) and focuses on refuting the points Dawkins makes in The God Delusion. The fact that the McGraths are Christian is almost incidental: they occasionally draw upon examples from Christianity. From the offset it is evident that the purpose of the book is to discredit The God Delusion.

The book is very focused: there is little of the rhetoric and nastiness which I understand plagues The God Delusion. Most of the points made are very well-written, although the McGraths occasionally ignore what I feel to be the more obvious responses to Dawkins' ramblings. The most prominent example is the section attempting to refute Dawkins' idea that Christian faith is irrational. The McGraths put across a slightly convulated argument; I was expecting them to point out that the Greek word used in the New Testament for "faith" is "pistis", which is best translated to "trust based on prior evidence". The Biblical definition of faith is completely rational and certainly not "blind", and I am surprised Alister McGrath (of all people) did not make that point.

While the McGraths correctly criticise Dawkins for tarring all Christians with the same brush, they occasionally slip and describe Dawkins as, among other things, atheism's "leading contemporary defender". I am sure that any reasonably well-educated atheist would be offended by being put in the same corner as Dawkins.

All that said, the vast majority of the arguments are very fluid and to the point. For someone looking for a response to the claims made in The God Delusion and only in The God Delusion, this is a good candidate for reading.(less)

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Jul 06, 2009 Jason rated it 1 of 5 stars · review of another edition Recommends it for: Nobody

Recommended to Jason by: Brian Clarke

Shelves: non-fiction, theology

The best thing that can be said for "The Dawkins Delusion?" is that at under 100 pages, it didn't waste too much of my time. To save you from wasting any of yours, let me summarize (and paraphrase): "Dawkins makes hateful baseless claims and ignores evidence that cuts against his position." If you're hoping for this book to say more, you'll be sorely disappointed (though perhaps appreciative of the irony).

I think perhaps I just need a break from this genre, for it has gotten to feel like a horri...more

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Apr 20, 2013 Alan rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: apologetics, christianity

I had recently read 'The God Delusion' so I was interested in getting the opinion of Alister McGrath, who I trust to be a reliable scholar. He did confirm all of my initial reactions that I had towards Dawkins. He showed that Dawkins is even getting push-back from people in his own atheistic circle because of his dogmatic and often fundamentalist approach to atheism. Dawkins holds to an uninformed approach on any topic outside of biology and fails to rely on reliable sources when speaking on iss...more

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Jun 10, 2010 Art rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

This book is a response to Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion. Dawkins' essentially believes that anyone who believes in God is irrational, ignorant, goofy, possibly dangerous, etc. He seems to get especially worked up over the Biblical God. In The Dawkins Delusion, the authors probe for weaknesses in Dawkins' reasoning. They do an o.k. job. Attacking Dawkins' groundlessness might have been a better way of going about things. As Nietzsche's madman pointed out: when there is no God, there can be n...more

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Sep 23, 2009 Jeff rated it 1 of 5 stars · review of another edition

I picked this book up with the Dawkin's God Delusion because it was right next to it. I'm sorry to say as short as it is I couldn't get through two chapters. Every other paragrah seemed to reference an earlier book or argument either by McGrath or Dawkins. When he wasn't self-promoting he was nitpicking on Dawkin's choice of examples or quotes. I won't say that its not informative as to different interpretations of the situations Dawkin raises in his book but it does little else. I found it a bi...more

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Sep 15, 2009 Charles Fernando rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: theology

Alister is very logical in apologetics and again he shows no mercy for Dawkins pseud-science memetics and atheistic fundamentalism.

A short book i read in few hours, more a message for the reader than a science book, with a lot of bibliography to check. It have that feeling that something is missing, the book seems too short, i appreciate it was more elaborate (Even because my admiration for Alister is big, i love see him arguing more), i myself have arguments in some of the subjects that is not...more

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Apr 12, 2011 David S. T. rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: religion, christian, read-in-2011

This book or one like it should be read along with or right after reading the God Delusion, McGrath does a pretty decent job showing some of the weaknesses in the arguments of Dawkins and this book might at least cause the reader to question what they read. The main problem I have with this book though is for some reason McGrath tries to keep the book very short (he mentions leaving stuff out so the book doesn't get too long), but at only 144 pages this book could have been much longer. Basicall...more

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May 20, 2009 Luke rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

When I picked up this book, I thought to myself that the authors were going to have a hard time disputing 400 pages of atheist vitriol with less than 100 pages. I was wrong. The McGraths (husband and wife), both fellow Oxfordians with Dawkins, cleanly and effectively eviscerate many of Dawkins' most egregrious arguments in The God Delusion. I did my best to approach this book with an open mind (as I did with Dawkins' book) and to weigh the arguments on their own merit. This task was much easier...more When I picked up this book, I thought to myself that the authors were going to have a hard time disputing 400 pages of atheist vitriol with less than 100 pages. I was wrong. The McGraths (husband and wife), both fellow Oxfordians with Dawkins, cleanly and effectively eviscerate many of Dawkins' most egregrious arguments in The God Delusion. I did my best to approach this book with an open mind (as I did with Dawkins' book) and to weigh the arguments on their own merit. This task was much easier to do, reading The Dawkins Delusion? than it was reading Dawkins himself. While Dawkins goes out of his way (and indeed out of the confines of scientific inquiry) to castigate and villify believers, the McGraths don't attempt to alienate atheists for their beliefs. They simply ask that Dawkins drop his pretensions of objectivity and uncorrupted rationality and examine the highly subjective and irrational book that he has penned. The Dawkins Delusion is not an apologetic for Christianity (although it is discussed and the McGraths are both Christian) but instead seeks to engage Dawkins on a handful of his arguments. They state from the beginning that the book will not be a point-by-point refutation, but will instead examine key points and let the reader contemplate the fidelity of the rest of Dawkins' book.

I felt that this book was an even-handed and honest counter-point to The God Delusion. The authors highlight the points that they believe Dawkins gets right and challenge the points where he fails. It is a small book, but a fairly dense read. I read it twice to make sure I understood everything and I'm glad I did. While I don't agree with the McGraths across the board, theologically, I admire their deft and competent refutation of The God Delusion, which I found to be a highly flawed and hypocritical book. I would highly recommend this book to anyone who has read The God Delusion. It is important to read Dawkins' book first, so that the references in The Dawkins Delusion? make sense. Thanks for taking the time to read my review!(less)

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Mar 01, 2013 Mike rated it 2 of 5 stars · review of another edition Recommends it for: anyone that has read the The God Delusion

A VERY fair and forthright dealing with a few of the quotes from Dawkins' book, The God Delusion.

Otherwise, he is obviuosly ignorant of the science involved.

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May 07, 2013 James Titterton rated it 3 of 5 stars

Shelves: theology-spirituality

At the outset of this book, the McGraths state that they do not seek to go through 'The God Delusion' page-by-page, countering each of Prof. Dawkins's falsehoods or mistakes as they appear. Instead, they content themselves with a general rebuttal to the aims and themes of 'The God Delusion' and signpost readers to other works that respond to Dawkins and the 'New Atheism' in depth. As such, it would be all too easy for Dawkins and his supporters to claim that this book is a toothless criticism th...more

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May 19, 2013 G.g. Galt rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

This is an excellent book. McGrath went to Cambridge with Dawkins and admires most of Richard Dawkins books, but with the "The God Delusion,"McGrath points out Dawkins took a unscientific and radical approach straying far from what is usually considered scientific writing. One thing I particularly admired in McGarath’s book is how he discusses people who call themselves atheist and agnositc––I found it insightful and respectful of views other than his own. I would recommend this book to believer...more

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Jan 06, 2011 Robert Pajer rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

One of the difficulties I've had with Richard Dawkins contempt for Christianity is his disparaging attitude toward Christian intellectuals who, according to Dawkins, are all imbeciles. Alister McGrath, in the Dawkins Delusion, proves himself a worthy opponent of Dawkins, whose own magniloquent estimation of his intellectual prowess is becoming tiresome. McGrath exposes Dawkins inept research of pivotal arguments Dawkins uses to denigrate Christianity in "The God Delusion." To possess such a prod...more

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Sep 28, 2010 Rod rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

I was hoping for alot more info from this little book. Which probably wasn't fair - its a little book after all.
He pretty much discussed all the faults with Dawkins lame efforts that I found as well. I can't believe Dawkins was actually a scientist at one time.

I don't think I would recommend this book to anyone. If people are uneducated enough about world religions to actually read Dawkins writings then they probably wouldn't know the truth if it smacked them upside the head. They would be bett...more

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Jun 19, 2009 Virgiliana rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

McGrath does a nice job of exposing Dawkins' The God Delusion for the unscholarly jumble of half-arguments that it is. McGrath's clarity of thought and calm, even tone provide a soothing contrast after one has endured Dawkins' venomous ramblings. But other than that, McGrath's response seems superfluous to anyone familiar with the history of serious debate between Christians and atheists. I suppose his effortless refutation of Dawkins' accusations would be helpful to someone who has only been in...more

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Jul 27, 2012 Alastair Manderson rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

McGrath explains it is a sorry state of affairs that Christians should feel the need to respond to Dawkins' work, which fundamentally brings out old arguments from Ancient Greece. It is a useful piece of apologetics for younger Christians to know there are answers to legitimate questions, and ways to dismiss nonsense.

Chapter Four is probably the best one to read, and if you are on a University Campus, it is probably the only one you need.

(I read the book before my 2nd year exams, I have therefor...more

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Jul 27, 2011 Heather Browning added it · review of another edition

Shelves: non-fiction

This book makes a few good points but really achieves nothing. Yes, Dawkins' book was obviously written with bias and not all of his assumptions were valid. But really, any intelligent person reading it would have seen that. This does not mean that his central points were flawed, and these were glossed over in this book, with no rebuttal other than brief comments about their 'obvious' absurdity. This book may illustrate that Dawkins' book was not perfect, but it does nothing to convince or prove...more

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Feb 01, 2012 Drew Smith rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Great book! While reading it, be sure to remember that it is merely a response essay rather than a book presenting an argument. McGrath does a fantastic job explaining his purpose in the introduction, so be sure to read that and not just jump in chapter 1. There are only 4 chapters for a total of 100 pages, but it is very rich in context and does a brilliant job pointing out the flaws in Dawkins's argument in "The God Delusion". Even though McGrath disagrees with Dawkins, even showing where he t...more

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