Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

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Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Succeed

3.9 of 5 stars 3.90 · rating details · 27,145 ratings · 1,870 reviews

In his runaway bestseller "Guns, Germs, and Steel," Jared Diamond brilliantly examined the circumstances that allowed Western civilizations to dominate much of the world. Now he probes the other side of the equation: What caused some of the great civilizations of the past to fall into ruin, and what can we learn from their fates? Using a vast historical and geographical pe...more

Paperback, 560 pages

Published December 27th 2005 by Penguin Books Ltd. (London) (first published 2005)

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Jul 25, 2007 Kenghis Khan rated it 3 of 5 stars

The Pulitzer-prize winning "Guns, Germs and Steel" by this dude forever changed the way I look at history. And believe me, I am a history buff of sorts so this means a lot. Unfortunately, "Collapse" fails to measure up to that classic.

The real problem with Collapse isn't the research that goes into the thesis, or even the soundness of the thesis itself (though there are some qualms I have about how politically unstable Mongolia is or basing his analysis of cod fisheries on a single popular accun...more The Pulitzer-prize winning "Guns, Germs and Steel" by this dude forever changed the way I look at history. And believe me, I am a history buff of sorts so this means a lot. Unfortunately, "Collapse" fails to measure up to that classic.

The real problem with Collapse isn't the research that goes into the thesis, or even the soundness of the thesis itself (though there are some qualms I have about how politically unstable Mongolia is or basing his analysis of cod fisheries on a single popular accunt). The central contention, that population explosion, interdependency, unsustainable harvest, adverse cultural values, and about 8 other factors contributed to a society's collapse, is innocuous enough, though admittedly somewhat vague. Rather, the problem is that Diamond is so intent upon clearly and explicitly detailing every freaking argument to paint a convincing picture of the ancient/medieval societies or the current polluting industries that he often loses sight of his larger arguments. For instance, his discussion of Viking Greenland v. Iceland is insightful but whether it warrants nearly 100 pages in a 500 page book I doubt. The same could be said of his discussion of modern Australia; China, in contrast, gets really short shrift. He goes at pain to explicate the archaeological evidence by which we understand the Anasazi collapse, but here too he gets a little repetitive and locquacious. For instance, the logic behind dendrochronolgy and salinization were explained more than once to elucidate yet another nuance. Indeed, here Diamond the scientist persistently gets in the way of Diamond the popular writer. Were it not for his stellar writing skills this would have been even more of a chore to read.

Apart from the lack of effective editing, Collapse suffers from Diamond's penchant to almost bend over backward to point out that he is not engaged in a crude form of "Environmental determinism" whereby the significance of cultural and political events are misleadingly downplayed. He certainly didn't do this in Guns Germs and Steel but many people, including the NY Times, accuse him of it. Nevertheless Diamond was sufficiently sensitive to this interpretation (as well as eager to show that we can prevent environmental catastrophe) that he repeats this ad nauseum and, IMHO, belabors this point to being beyond repetitive.

The cumulative effect of all these shortcomings is that the book ends up presenting really rather very little that is new, argues persistently against straw man hypotheses, and is informative but almost in a trivial sense. At 520 odd dense pages this is a lot to ask of a reader, and it is a pity that this simply does not measure up to Diamond's earlier works.(less)

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Jul 31, 2007 Gaff rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

I considered giving this book 4 instead of 5 stars simply because it can be over-dense in its detail and the style can be rather dry - but then I figured that says more about my stamina and laziness than about the quality of the book, so the book gets 5 and I get a 4 for effort. We're all winners.

So despite the headline-grabbing title, the author Jared Diamond - a cross between an Amish garden gnome and avuncular Glastonbury festival supremo if you go by his picture - tries its darndest to avoid...more I considered giving this book 4 instead of 5 stars simply because it can be over-dense in its detail and the style can be rather dry - but then I figured that says more about my stamina and laziness than about the quality of the book, so the book gets 5 and I get a 4 for effort. We're all winners.

So despite the headline-grabbing title, the author Jared Diamond - a cross between an Amish garden gnome and avuncular Glastonbury festival supremo if you go by his picture - tries its darndest to avoid sensationalism, and the author opts instead for what is sorely needed in the environmental debate: sober, empirical analysis. But don't let that put you off - once you put your brain into the right gear this book can be completely consuming and fascinating, and the message and lessons it gives are electrifying.

Diamond examines in turn a number of societies, ancient and modern, successful or unsuccessful, and forensically examines what were the factors in their collapse or survival before turning to our modern, global society to ask what lessons we can apply from those past cases to the predicament we face today. We learn about the Easter Islanders (about whom one of Diamond's pupils asked: "What was going through the mind of the man who chopped down the last tree on the island?"), the Anasazi, the Maya, the Greenland Norse and Greenland Inuit, modern day Australia and Montana, shogun-ruled Japan and others.

He identifies common environmental problems which collapsed societies have tended to share (deforestation and soil erosion as well as resource depletion cropping up again and again), as well as cultural factors such as systems of government and contact with other societies. He cites some incredible studies such as the examination of ancient middens, of crystallised rodents' piss and of pond sediments to show how we can unravel the mysteries of some of these collapses by using the study of, for example, pollen in sediment or animal bones in middens to paint a vivid picture of climates, deforestation and diets at precise times in these societies' stories. It was this quite academic precision that gave me a quiet thrill and which gives this book its calm authority.

Diamond ends by looking at our modern global society and assessing its chances of overcoming the sheer number, breadth, scale and interconnectedness of the ecological problems facing us, and although he insists he is an optimist - and argues that our globalised society gives us advantages in finding solutions as well as giving us zero escape routes if we fail - by the time you finish reading, you feel that as a planet we've got a sheer cliff face to climb, and his optimism sounds a little disingenuous. But educating yourself to understand these issues is a necessary step to doing your bit, and this book will certainly arm you with the sobering facts. If only the debate were always conducted in these civilised (in the best sense of the word) terms.(less)

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Jul 15, 2007 Conrad rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: owned, anthropology

Guns, Germs and Steel occasionally felt like monday morning quarterbacking, but Collapse is superb. In GG&S, Diamond tried to explain how technologies that evolved in some places did not in others, how some communities thrived due to excess food and more advanced agriculture, while others, perpetually on the verge of starvation, had to devote all of their time to dealing with that and thus didn't have time for building the Parthenon. The argument was not airtight - his notion of what constit...more Guns, Germs and Steel occasionally felt like monday morning quarterbacking, but Collapse is superb. In GG&S, Diamond tried to explain how technologies that evolved in some places did not in others, how some communities thrived due to excess food and more advanced agriculture, while others, perpetually on the verge of starvation, had to devote all of their time to dealing with that and thus didn't have time for building the Parthenon. The argument was not airtight - his notion of what constitutes a reasonable amount of time to spend on gathering food could use a little sharpening, and he didn't approach work as part and parcel of culture, which it most certainly is. GG&S also overlooked a lot of crops available to people he strenuously argued had nothing to eat - for example, Acai in the Amazon Basin (a superfood which constitutes 45% of the diet of some locals) and others elsewhere.

In Collapse, Diamond examines how several ancient societies (Easter Island, Mangareva/Pitcairn Lapita, Maya, the Norse colonies in Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland) fell apart due to resource management issues, the environmental challenges faced by a few modern countries (Australia, Japan, China), and the best ways to avoid a tragedy of the commons-type situation that results in a drastically reduced standard of living for everyone. The author is breathtakingly impartial, sometimes to a fault; he laconically remarks, for example, that "George W. Bush remains unconvinced of the reality of global warming."

Overall, Diamond seems most worried about erosion, which he sees as a bigger problem than global warming because of the difficulty of replacing arable land, and the multitude of ways it can be destroyed. You can buy all the long-line-caught Chilean sea bass you want, and eat organic lettuce all day, and still have an awful impact on the environment because the soil in which the lettuce grows is a limited resource, as are the fisheries that produce the fish you buy, which also suffer from land degradation.

Diamond thinks that a lot of the resources we rely on have been made artificially cheap through subsidies and foolish government management of limited resources. He's right, but there is a conflict between egalitarianism and environmentalism lurking between the pages of this book: I don't think you can charge the right amount for energy or food or other essentials without further immiserating the poor. That's the unmet challenge of the environmental movement, the one this and most books on the subject dodge. Despite that, I'd wholeheartedly recommend Collapse for its details on everyday life in Norse Greenland and Easter Island alone, not just for the nuanced analysis.(less)

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Apr 23, 2012 Manny rated it 4 of 5 stars

Shelves: history-and-biography, science

Jared Diamond looks at several societies that have collapsed as a result of misusing their natural resources, plus a couple (Tokugawa period Japan is the star example) that miraculously managed to pull back from the brink. At the end, he also talks about some present-day cases where we still don't know what will happen.

The one my thoughts keep returning to is medieval Greenland, which Diamond discusses in a long and detailed chapter. Settled in the 11th century by Vikings originally from Norway...more

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Aug 17, 2011 Charlie George rated it 5 of 5 stars

Shelves: science, history, anthropology, current-events, environmentalism, favorites, books-read-twice, will-re-read

[2011 Update: I am re-reading this after not quite 2 years. I have come to regard this book as the best non-fiction I've had the pleasure of reading, and recommend it emphatically if you have an interest in any of the subjects in which I have it categorized on my shelves.]

A masterwork, better even than Mr. Diamond's Pulitzer-winning Guns, Germs and Steel. Collapse bridges the gap between anthropology and environmentalism, and critically connects each with our own welfare, both collectively and a...more [2011 Update: I am re-reading this after not quite 2 years. I have come to regard this book as the best non-fiction I've had the pleasure of reading, and recommend it emphatically if you have an interest in any of the subjects in which I have it categorized on my shelves.]

A masterwork, better even than Mr. Diamond's Pulitzer-winning Guns, Germs and Steel. Collapse bridges the gap between anthropology and environmentalism, and critically connects each with our own welfare, both collectively and as individuals.

Diamond rightly takes to task environmental attitudes that appear to mindlessly value endangered birds or coral reefs above people's interests or livelihood. That said, he also clarifies which aspects of the environment we should care about and why. He tallies dollars cost and lives lost. He illustrates in example after well-documented example the consequences for societies disregarding their resource base or destructive practices. He repeatedly and explicitly asks the question: "well it obviously sucks to be a blue-footed bubi bird, but why should Joe Blow Logger care when he has the more pressing need to feed his family?" Well he should care very much about forests because he depends on them for his income. If he wants those children not to struggle with poverty and a declining society and standard of living, he should further care about many other aspects of the environment.

The biggies throughout history that have played a primary role in virtually every societal collapse are deforestation and soil erosion and/or salinization. To that we add a host of other common problems that can and must be solved, including habitat loss, water management and pollution, greenhouse gasses, resource over-exploitation, and energy supply.

Diamond goes deeper than simply blaming corporations for their destructive practices. He examines the policies and economic realities that drive corporations in polluting industries like mining to behave as they do, or the pressures they face. The fact is, in a market economy, where profit is the motive, successful companies will pollute to the full extent that our laws and attitudes allow. He states: "I also assign to the public the added costs, if any, of sound environmental practices, which I regard as normal costs of doing business. My views may seem to ignore a moral imperative that businesses should follow virtuous principles, whether or not it is most profitable for them to do so. Instead I prefer to recognize that... government regulation has arisen precisely... for the enforcement of moral principles."

Of course the rest of the book demonstrates how it is far more urgent than a mere moral principle, but a practical one necessary to ensure any society's long-term survival.
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Jul 15, 2011 Ryan rated it 4 of 5 stars

In Collapse, Jared Diamond draws our attention to the following problems, which have "plagued" humanity throughout history.

1. Deforestation and loss of habitat
2. Overhunting
3. Overfishing
4. Soil degradation
5. Water management problems
6. Population growth
7. Increased per capita impact of people
8. Impact of non-native species

And now we face four more:

9. Human-caused climate change
10. The build up toxic waste
11. We're approaching the limits of the Earth's photosynthetic capacity
12. Energy shortages...more

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Mar 20, 2011 Architeuthis rated it 3 of 5 stars

Shelves: 2000s, environmental-writings

The halfway point review:

One question I've been wrestling with as I read, as I watch these societies move slightly past sustainability, as I read about societal collapse and the squandering of resources by the wealthy and then the inevitable cannibalism that always seems to show up in the last act, I keep asking myself how the environment became a "political issue." There's no question that environmental resources aren't infinite, yet it seems like the majority of people…or at least the loudest...more The halfway point review:

One question I've been wrestling with as I read, as I watch these societies move slightly past sustainability, as I read about societal collapse and the squandering of resources by the wealthy and then the inevitable cannibalism that always seems to show up in the last act, I keep asking myself how the environment became a "political issue." There's no question that environmental resources aren't infinite, yet it seems like the majority of people…or at least the loudest faction…care less about human life on earth than their own comfort and status. Or else, how can they justify placing jobs, business interests, or anything else ahead of the environment in their values?

Is it because environmental damage is such a gradual process? If so, we need to come up with some way to drive home the importance of creating a sustainable way of living. Politicians hedging around environmental issues--while placing these issues on the same level of importance as gays in the military--is clearly not getting us anywhere. Literature on the dangers of global warming and about the human effects on the environment isn't going to get the point across to those who willfully avoid learning about the topic.

Does the environmental movement need more advertisements? More celebrity endorsements?

I hate asking rhetorical questions, even if my goal is to generate conversation, so my hypothesis, without any evidence to support it, is YES: we need a much fucking better PR department, and we need it quickly. If we are going to keep the global society from reaching the point of some real collapse, we need to change the rhetoric with which we talk about the "environment." The environment is an abstract "out there" that doesn't necessarily include human babies or grandchildren. The way we abstractly think of "the environment" makes this separation of humans from their environment easier. We need rhetoric that makes it clear that when we speak of "the environment," what we are really concerned with is the continued ability for humanity to survive on this planet. What we're talking about isn't separate from people, physically or ethically.

I'll end my halfway point review by bringing up the personal guilt that reading these pages has reawakened in me. Reading about the way the Easter Islanders squandered resources building the tremendous statues and headpieces for the glorification of rich people has reminded me of my own complicity. I've always thought of myself as an environmentalist: I take the light-rail whenever possible, recycle, eat with an awareness of where my food comes from. But, even as someone passionate about the environment, I've spent several years working at a bank. I've spent my time too focused on my own education to dedicate much time to preservation…which is what I'm complaining about others doing. What have I truly done to rebel against a society that places greed and opulence above sustainability? I've found ways to reduce the damage that I inflict, but I have done nothing to challenge my society's destructive way of being. So, what right do I have to climb up on my soap-box?(less)

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Jun 06, 2012 Cheryl in CC NV marked it as not-for-me

I read lots of reviews. Seems like people love it if they agree with his 'premise' (though most don't admit he has one, and for all I know maybe he doesn't), or hate it if they don't. It's also 'interesting' 'readable' 'dry' and 'dense' depending on the reader. I might recommend it to Ralph because it apparently does a lot of that thing he's especially interested in, the 'how do we know what we claim to know' - but I might not because it's so very long.

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Apr 16, 2012 Buck added it

Shelves: pop-science, more-than-i-could-chew

From now on, every fledgling civilization should be issued with a little pamphlet outlining the dangers of deforestation. On the cover, there'd be a picture of a toppled Easter Island statue, with the caption, "Learn from our mistakes: if you chop down all your trees, your society will expire in an orgy of cannibalism. Also, you might want to go easy on the monoliths."

Collapse is a sobering book, but I'm just jaded enough that after about the tenth analysis of pollen readings from core samples,...more

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May 01, 2012 Jeanette added it · review of another edition

Recommended to Jeanette by: Judy

Shelves: audio, cultural-and-social-commentary, nonfiction

I listened to the abridged audio version of this book. Some of the discs were damaged, and I have no idea what I missed, so I won't rate the book. I wanted to listen to the full-length audio version, but I can't stand that reader's style. You'd have to put a firecracker up his nose to get him to put any inflection in his voice. (Don't forget to light the firecracker. An unlit one would just make him sound even more nasally challenged.)

A lot of what was in this book I already knew from my degree...more

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Jun 28, 2007 Helga Mohammed el-Salami rated it 1 of 5 stars

The esteemed Jared Diamond, author of one of the most insightful and profound books of the previous decade: Guns Germs and Steel, tried to break the wave of his success on Collapse, a book about the failure of societies due to a laundry-list of (mostly environmental) issues. It’s too soon to render a verdict on the bearded Professor (unlike Paul Ehrlich and Rachel Carson) since he wisely chose topics which cannot be gauged within a human lifetime but the book itself was a real steaming pile of e...more

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Oct 04, 2008 Irwan rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition Recommends it for: Everyone

Shelves: finished

A great, readable book about past and present societies, their decisions regarding societal and environmental challenges that led to their collapse or survival.

On the side, I found the book very informative about the history of the societies. I particularly enjoy those about the Greenland's Norse(Viking). This book inspire me to expand my reading to those about archaeology and history.

One important lesson: ability and willingness to change core values (religious or secular) proved to be essent...more

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Mar 31, 2009 Amari rated it 4 of 5 stars

Shelves: general-non-fiction

Extraordinary in scope. Makes the news far more interesting even than it already was. However, I withhold star 5 because someone should have run the manuscript by me. Many awkward sentences. Too many sentences that aren't, quite. Or that aren't by a long shot. Penguin? Editors? Anyone? Such a noble and otherwise impressive undertaking deserves better care before reaching the public. But yes. A grand and very fine book indeed.

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Oct 05, 2008 Will Byrnes rated it 5 of 5 stars

Shelves: non-fiction, all-time-favorites-non-fiction, favorites, economics, brain-candy

This is a major work. Diamond looks in detail at the factors at play in the demise of civilizations in human history, using a wide range of examples. He offers a framework in which to structure the analysis and looks in great detail at possible (and in many cases certain) reasons why various societies collapsed. He is not a one-note analyst. All problems do not fit the same mold. There is considerable nuance and common sense brought to bear on this examination. Foolishness plays a part, greed, c...more

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Mar 12, 2008 Brooks rated it 5 of 5 stars

I read this book over six weeks from February through March 2006. It took a lot of effort but was excellent. It is filled with excellent observations on different societies and why they failed or excelled. Much of his observations were new to me but were well documented and reasonable. In addition, to information on various societies was an introduction to various field methods of study that were amazing. So, he shows what is the current research into archeology (and all its arcane specialties)...more I read this book over six weeks from February through March 2006. It took a lot of effort but was excellent. It is filled with excellent observations on different societies and why they failed or excelled. Much of his observations were new to me but were well documented and reasonable. In addition, to information on various societies was an introduction to various field methods of study that were amazing. So, he shows what is the current research into archeology (and all its arcane specialties) but how they provide information on former civilizations.

Easter Island – Why did the society collapse and why did they build those statues. Easter Island is somewhat unique. It is a temperate zone island as opposed to tropical for most Polynesian settle areas. Second, it was much farther away from other Polynesian islands. Diamond’s hypothesis on Easter Island’s demise is deforestation. He sites two interesting studies – pollen studies from soil samples and second checking charcoal ashes from garbage heaps. They both show a decline in large palm trees. Even more interesting is the loss of a species of Giant Palm and then the loses of other types of palm. The tree lose also meant they lost transportation as the Giant Palms were used to make the ocean going canoes. Also, the moia sites show increased activity as the resources were being depleted and then signs of warfare and the societies collapse.
Easter island more than other locations was more fragile because it was dry, temperate, and isolated.

Anasazi - This area of the southwest has been repeated settled and then collapse. Basically, this is very marginal area to live (it’s a desert). It gets wetter for 50-100 years and new people settle the area, deplete the resources (soil), population increases, and then it gets dry and everyone kills each other or moves on. Diamond’s point is that it is multiple factors that cause their collapse and not to focus on the last war or migration but the underlying environmental issues causing the crises. Chaco Canyon was probably the most advanced site. Again, the main cause of collapse was deforestation. Here, the biologist studied the crystallized urine pellets of packrats to see how the fauna had changed – Amazing. Packrats have been living in the area for 40K years. They found that this area used to be moderately forested with Pinyon pines. An example of impending collapse – remains of headless mice in the human preserved dry feces suggesting people were catching and eating mice whole. Also, the latest construction (based on tree ring studies) is defensive walls and gates. Finally, limited portable objects (pottery, knives) are left at the site, so the majority probably migrated.

Maya – Here is again an area where few modern people live, yet there were hundreds of thousands of people in an advanced Society at one point. Mayan were limited by several factors (from Guns, Germs, and Steel) – poor crops only corn, not wheat or barley and few domestic animals. The suspect cause of collapse here is soil fertility. This area has poor soils and Mayan’s had limited crop options. They first farmed the valleys and then the hills. Once they removed the trees from the hills, the hill sides eroded, leaving even less farmable land. Evidence is based on the decline of nutrition based on reviewing the skeletons by age. Second, by pollen studies that show loss of native trees and replacement by crop pollen. After a city collapse, increases in native tree pollen. The other factor was long term climate change in rain fall. From 5500 bc to 500B.C is relatively wet. Then it cycles every 100 or so years. This was determined by studying the isotopes of Oxygen in the lake bed sediment. In dry years, there is more evaporation and a different ratio of Isotopes (lighter isotopes evaporate faster).

Vikings – There were several Viking colonies of variable success. The most remote and quickest to fail was vineland (Canada). Basically, the native Americans were able to push the Vikings out. Since this was the farthest away, there was no way to send a large force of technologically superior Vikings (Vikings had iron). Greenland was the next farthest and Diamond spends two chapters on them. They lasted for about 400 years before Collapsing. He argues for multiple factors – first, loss of contact with the homeland and trade. In the late 1400s, Norway had a new king and internal issues that reduced shipping from 4 ships a year to one every decade. The other cause of reduced shipping was the crusades open up Africa Ivory trade which decrease need for Greenlands major export crop of Walrus Ivory. Archeologists found less and less iron in construction and iron tools. Knives are sharpened to the nub. Further, Greenland has no large trees for shipbuilding. All ships had to come from Europe. Second, climate change made it colder. This is marginal area for farming, so decreased growing season is critical. Third, was not adapting from home country ideals. They kept cows as a status item which required tremendous pasture and hay production. Goats would be better in this marginal land. Fourth, soil loss. Cattle and hay production reduce the fertility of the soil. The final stroke was the expansion of the Inuit into Greenland. Inuit were able to harvest whales and other fauna not used by the Norse. Inuit were probably able to overrun the few remain survivors as the survivors had no advantages in Iron.
In Iceland, the norse survived. They were closer to Norway to be able to be resupplied. However, it is not sustainable. Iceland has had complete forest removal and is not bare as the moon in many areas.
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May 26, 2008 Carolyn rated it 4 of 5 stars

Shelves: nonfiction

(this book is bigger than I thought...)

I'm finally done! I know, nine weeks later...

For a specific rating, I would say the content is 4.5, readability is 3. This book is definitely worth reading, even if you don't plan on putting in the effort to thoroughly read each section. The section on ancient cultures if interesting, but his level of detail is not necessary to understanding the main points of his book. For example, I found myself slightly skimming the paragraphs describing precisely how sc...more (this book is bigger than I thought...)

I'm finally done! I know, nine weeks later...

For a specific rating, I would say the content is 4.5, readability is 3. This book is definitely worth reading, even if you don't plan on putting in the effort to thoroughly read each section. The section on ancient cultures if interesting, but his level of detail is not necessary to understanding the main points of his book. For example, I found myself slightly skimming the paragraphs describing precisely how scientists measured tree rings or pollen molecules to arrive at the specific conclusions that Diamond uses as evidence. (While important to the overall thesis, this is the section that I believe can be skimmed the most.)

The section on modern societies was excellent. He does a great job of discussing the major environmental pressures on our planet by highlighting four societies: Rwanda, Dominican Republic/Haiti, China, and Australia.

If pressed for time, I suggest reading Part 4, Practical Lessons (it's helpful to have the background of the rest of the book for this section, but the ecologically savvy among us can certainly get by without losing too much comprehension).

I rated the content at 4.5 because there's one rubs me wrong. In his chapter on big business vs. the environment, he talks about two oil companies in New Guinea: a subsidiary of Chevron, and a more local operation. He raves about the environmental responsibility Chevron displays in this area, saying that they learned from the Exxon Valdez disaster and know the importance of creating minimal impact and sustainability. He fails to mention, though, that ChevronTexaco abandoned their operations in Ecuador in 1992, leaving an ecological nightmare for the locals? Sure, this subsidiary had nothing to do with Ecuador, as their association is only through several mergers that have taken place in recent years, but I think I'm just bothered by the way he portrays the Chevron Corporation as being entirely responsible for their operations (which may be true in New Guinea) without pointing out that the whole corporation is not perfect. That, of course, makes me wonder what other information may or may not have been included in his analyses. Am I reading into this detail? Probably. I just want the grey areas to be pointed out!

The point remains that his central thesis has merit regarding the environmental situation we find ourselves in currently, and I think it's an important essay to prompt intelligent discussion on the problems and solutions we face. Originally published in 2005, it's interesting to see how the situation has changed since the book (like gas prices?), but it's definitely new enough to be quite relevant to our society today. (less)

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Nov 13, 2007 Davie rated it 3 of 5 stars

Shelves: finished

Didn't get to the end, but it's finished in the sense that I got as far as I'm gonna go.

Four or five stars for the first two-thirds. I loved learning about the resourceful, entertaining, and possibly suspect ways some archaeologists use to try to figure out how people lived a long long time ago, even when those people ended up virtually destroying themselves and leaving behind little else behind besides garbage -- people who, with no compasses, no longitude, and no ships, traveled vast distance...more

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lilly I'm fascinated by archaeology as the practice of writing stories to make sense of all these random clues. It seems to me that there is a hell of a lot...more
Jul 31, 2008 10:48pm

lilly Oh, and related to the idea of seeing common social narratives when reading physical clues, I really want to read what Joan Roughgarden has written ab...more
Jul 31, 2008 10:53pm

Davie That Roughgarden book sounds fascinating -- can't wait for your review of it, although looks like you have a bunch of heavy-duty anthro to get through...more
Aug 02, 2008 12:20pm

Aug 20, 2007 Richard rated it 5 of 5 stars Recommends it for: Everyone

The thesis here is that the success or failure of any culture depends upon five factors:

Climate change,
Environmental preservation or degradation,
The presence of friendly external trade partners,
The presence of external enemies, and finally,
That society's ability and willingness to respond to the previous four factors.

To develop his theory, Diamond discusses about a dozen different societies, past and present, which had experienced various combinations of troubles with the first four factors, and...more The thesis here is that the success or failure of any culture depends upon five factors:

Climate change,
Environmental preservation or degradation,
The presence of friendly external trade partners,
The presence of external enemies, and finally,
That society's ability and willingness to respond to the previous four factors.

To develop his theory, Diamond discusses about a dozen different societies, past and present, which had experienced various combinations of troubles with the first four factors, and each of which had responded differently to the challenges that it faced.

In describing the collapse of the society on Easter Island, he ponders what might have been going through the mind of the man who chopped down the very last of the trees that had been utterly indispensable to their civilization at its height. Diamond reasons that as the tree population declined slowly over the course of several generations, its importance in building and commerce likewise diminished, so that by the time only a handful remained, the once vital trees would have seemed nearly valueless. That woodsman would therefore most likely have had no idea how important those trees had been to his great grandparents and would have had no reason to understand the significance of destroying the last one.

In discussing the collapse of the Viking colony in Greenland, Diamond observes that the Vikings might have survived and flourished had they befriended their Inuit neighbors, and learned from them how to cope with the worsening climate. (Unfortunately for the Vikings, Greenland happened to have been uncharacteristically warm during their early years there, and they had no way of knowing that that warm period was to be short-lived.) The Norse colonists might, for example, have tried to copy the kayaks that served the Inuit so well for fishing. Instead, the Vikings looked down on the Inuit as inferiors and pagans (at this point the Norse had converted to Christianity), and clung vainly to a Northern European way of life that was unworkable in Greenland.

(The two examples above are only small samples of their respective sections of the book; neither represents the totality of those sections' arguments.)

Diamond concludes the book on a note of cautious optimism for the modern world's global society. With the advantages of our knowledge of past societies, and our modern technologies (and our understanding of the unintended consequences inherent in all technology), the world can overcome all of the political and environmental crises existing today, provided that governments and big business' are willing to respond intelligently to those crises. He adds that the only way they will have that will is if they're guided by conscientious voters and consumers.(less)

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Jan 02, 2009 Mark Kushner rated it 5 of 5 stars

Fascinating account of why civilizations died out, with important lessons for our current time. Much better reading than Guns, Germs and Steel, which was good but very repetitive.

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Dec 25, 2008 Ma'lis Wendt rated it 4 of 5 stars

Dense book, but fascinating information on how and why civilizations develop and then collapse with historical and present day examples.

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Feb 25, 2007 Lee Drake rated it 5 of 5 stars

Shelves: archaeology

READ THIS! If this book doesn't shake your intellectual and moral fibers, then something is wrong. It details the history of civilization collapse, and analyzes the environment and how its mismanagement translates to social conflict and collapse. This book transformed me from wannabe archaeologist to wannabe politician - because for the first time I saw that the archaeological record has definitive implictions for how we should live our lives and structure our social institutions.

Honestly, if t...more

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Aug 04, 2011 Rosemary added it

This is surprisingly light going considering the subject matter. Still, it is not exactly beach reading. It is taking me some time to read, but is always fascinating.

Diamond provides a glimpse into the collapse (or prevention of collapse) of various societies such as Easter Island, the Vikings in Greenland, and the Mayans. Some of these people I had never heard of, and it was always worth reading.

The book becomes more gripping towards the later chapters, where Diamond outlines issues facing mode...more

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Feb 28, 2009 Brian rated it 3 of 5 stars

This is a difficult book to give one rating to. Some parts of it deserve four or five stars, some parts deserve one or two. Generally, Collapse lacks the consistency of Diamond's most well known book, Guns, Germs and Steel. Where Guns, Germs and Steel is nearly intuitive in the simpleness but universal applicability of its principles, Collapse is episodic and fractured. Diamond's basic thesis is that societies in ecologically fragile environments "choose" to succeed or fail based on how willing...more

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Feb 05, 2009 Bookmarks Magazine added it · review of another edition

Are we doomed, or can the next generation save us from ecological suicide? UCLA geography professor Diamond's provocative, interdisciplinary picture of social decline paints a bleak vision of our future. He writes well, has done impressive research, and tells fascinating stories. Yet, his thesis failed to convince many critics. He connects his stories with common themes, but often draws tenuous links between past and present, especially given today's use of technology and global markets to help

...more

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Jan 19, 2009 Alex Ginsberg rated it 4 of 5 stars

Not the masterpiece that I thought "Guns, Germs and Steel" was, but very compelling. During the first half, the author chronicles several societies that have collapsed, mostly because they squandered their resources. The parallels to today are not quite as chilling as they're supposed to be, because the circumstances are so different. Instead, I found these narratives chilling as stand-alone stories - the incredible degree to which luck determines the fate of an entire village, settlement or sma...more

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Jan 01, 2009 Lucas rated it 4 of 5 stars

Let me say the real score I’d want to give this book is a 3.5 or 3.75.

First, on a more superficial level, it could have used another round or two of editing. There are multiple occasions where he hammers home the same point multiple times for the same culture, particularly in Chapters 6-8 dealing with the Greenland Norse. This book could have been slimmer by a solid 40-50 pages without losing much.

Also, he rarely cites his sources directly in the text, often just referring to researcher names....more

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Apr 24, 2013 M.J. rated it 5 of 5 stars

Jared Diamond is, of course, famous for his Pulitzer prize-winning book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that proposes a theory on the success and failure of societies relative to one another determined largely on geography. His latest book on understanding the direction of human societies is an obvious build on that previous work, but his previous success appears to have allowed, refreshingly, more freedom and doubt to work into his central thesis.

Diamond's book explores several past societies that bro...more Jared Diamond is, of course, famous for his Pulitzer prize-winning book "Guns, Germs, and Steel" that proposes a theory on the success and failure of societies relative to one another determined largely on geography. His latest book on understanding the direction of human societies is an obvious build on that previous work, but his previous success appears to have allowed, refreshingly, more freedom and doubt to work into his central thesis.

Diamond's book explores several past societies that brought about their own collapse through ecological mismanagement, most notably the fail to properly manage forestry, and failure or inability to adapt to external forces (hostile neighbours, disruption of trade, climate change). It explores the domino-effect that even one failure in these areas had on the wider society. It is not just a focus on past societies, Rwanda and Haiti both feature prominently, nor is it just tales of failure, he focuses on a couple of societies that successfully managed their own ecological balance (often by exporting the problem, it appears). While many of the ancient examples are bubble cases, isolated from outside forces, he argues that we don't have that luxury in the era of globalization; each failure will resonates throughout the entire system, sending a shock-wave that touches even distant and seemingly unaffected nations, and making it more vital to learn and adapt from the lessons of the past.

Collapse is Diamond at his most accessible. It's well written and he is effectively humble in his own assertions, expressing doubt where needed, without diminishing their impact or believability. Far from an alarmist, he comes off as a concerned moderate willing to adapt and examine behaviour in a suitably rational manner that steadfastly refuses to cloak issues totally in moralistic terms. The historical lessons are engaging and intriguing and sometimes, written with enough empathy that you can almost hear the same question one of his students posed "What did the Easter Islander who cut down the last palm tree say while he was doing it?"(less)

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Feb 21, 2013 Rodrigo rated it 5 of 5 stars

Excellent read, if you are ok with Mr. Diamond's style and lots of references, citations, and footnotes. It does repeat itself a bit, but it seems to me with the purpose to establish additional supporting evidential sources.

I am not an economist, but I believe that in general the principles of economics are true - people and societies will try to undertake activities that make them "wealthy". The problem is that we humans are sometimes a bit weird in what we consider wealth...

The Mohai in Easter...more

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Jan 28, 2013 Henry rated it 5 of 5 stars

A long time ago I owned Jared Diamond's Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee, a zoological appraisal of humanity, and as such a worthy successor to Desmond Morris's old classic The Naked Ape. I read and re-read it until it fell to bits. The last chapter of Rise and Fall was all about how the independent invention of agriculture in various parts of the world was dictated by the range of domestic animals and plants available, and in turn, the environment. From this chapter emerged Diamond's next...more A long time ago I owned Jared Diamond's Rise and Fall of the Third Chimpanzee, a zoological appraisal of humanity, and as such a worthy successor to Desmond Morris's old classic The Naked Ape. I read and re-read it until it fell to bits. The last chapter of Rise and Fall was all about how the independent invention of agriculture in various parts of the world was dictated by the range of domestic animals and plants available, and in turn, the environment. From this chapter emerged Diamond's next book Guns, Germs and Steel, a critical hit and massive bestseller, which expanded that theme, about how the rise of civilization is in part related to accidents of climate and geography.

Collapse takes the theme a little further, to show how civilizations, once risen, can choose to succeed or fail, according to how the customs and practices of their people adapt to the demands of the environment. As the culmination of Diamond's grand theme, it represents a towering synthesis of what one might call historical economic geography.

Diamond starts by a close analysis of how various small, historical civilizations rose and fell, determined not just by their environment, but by how the civilizations responded to its strictures. From the Easter Islanders to the Anasazi Pueblo, the Classic Mayans to the Greenland Norse, it seems that societies that fail to adapt -- or whose rulers put short-term prestige before long-term endurance -- will fall.

But the message is far from hopeless. The world is full of people in a variety of regimes, from top-down dictatorships (China, the Dominican Republic) to bottom-up collectives (New Guinea Highlanders, Tikopia Islanders), who realize that they must change their ways before collapse happens. Ultimately, it is individuals who can make sweeping changes, in their consumer choices, voting preferences and lifestyles. What could have been a long exegesis of environmentalist gloom and doom ends as profoundly and determinedly hopeful.

What convinces you (as much as Diamond's clearly voiced arguments) is his clear, unforced tone. Even though he is in a position to have visited virtually everywhere he describes in person, at no point does he seem to lecture, bully or harangue. His is that still, small voice, the one that never lets you go. I know for a fact that this is a book that has changed people's minds. If so, it is a book which could, quite literally, change the world. It is, in my view, a work of genius.(less)

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Jan 08, 2013 Brian T rated it 5 of 5 stars

Fantastic! This should be required reading for everyone - especially anyone that claims that "man doesn't have the power to change the weather or his environment". This book is a series of case studies that describe how societies have over-extended themselves and neglected to keep a harmonious balance with their environment, and what the results have been. (Spoiler alert: They haven't been good!)

From Rwanda, to Australia, to Cambodia, to Greenland and Iceland, to Montana and the Galapagos Island...more

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About Jared Diamond

Jared Mason Diamond is an author, physiologist, evolutionary biologist and bio geographer. Dr. Diamond is also a medical researcher and professor of physiology at the UCLA School of Medicine. His book "Guns, Germs and Steel" won a Pulitzer Prize and "The Third Chimpanzee" was a best-selling award winner. Elected to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences, the National Academy of Sciences and the...more

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Books by Jared Diamond

Guns, Germs, and Steel: The Fates of Human Societies

The Third Chimpanzee: The Evolution & Future of the Human Animal

Why Is Sex Fun? The Evolution of Human Sexuality (Science Masters)

The World Until Yesterday: What Can We Learn from Traditional Societies?

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“To me, the conclusion that the public has the ultimate responsibility for the behavior of even the biggest businesses is empowering and hopeful, rather than disappointing. My conclusion is not a moralistic one about who is right or wrong, admirable or selfish, a good guy or a bad guy. My conclusion is instead a prediction, based on what I have seen happening in the past. Businesses have changed when the public came to expect and require different behavior, to reward businesses for behavior that the public wanted, and to make things difficult for businesses practicing behaviors that the public didn't want. I predict that in the future, just as in the past, changes in public attitudes will be essential for changes in businesses' environmental practices.” — 9 people liked it

“History as well as life itself is complicated -- neither life nor history is an enterprise for those who seek simplicity and consistency.” — 9 people liked it

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