Parenting With Love and Logic (Updated and Expanded Edition)

by Foster W. Cline, Jim Fay

book data

1,140 ratings, 4.16 average rating, 368 reviews (more data...)

rating	frequency	%
5		41%
4		38%
3		15%
2		3%
1		1%

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published

June 5th 2006 (first published 1995) by Pinon Press

binding

Hardcover, 271 pages

isbn

1576839540 (isbn13: 9781576839546)

description

Need help with your kids? Learn how to parent with love and logic and be amazed at the great results! Now with a new look and updated content, readers...more

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other reviews (showing 1-20 of 1,792)

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03/06/08

Lauren Redmond rated it:

I bought this book, as well as 4 other parenting books, so that I could compare a bunch of different theories and techniques and decide what spoke to me.

I found it interesting and there was plenty that was useful, however there was a lot that I didn't agree with. I think that there are a lot of responses to children that they call "Logical consequences" that I call punishment all dressed up in disguise. I don't know how this couldn't come across as inauthentic to childr...more

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11/10/07

Beth rated it:

Read in May, 2007

I have mixed feelings about this book.

Here’s what I liked about this book:

* The emphasis on consequences. It makes sense that, in order to learn about the real world, children should be allowed to experience consequences (within reason) so they can alter their behavior. And consequences cannot be given unless choices are also offered, within reason. I agree with that, too.

* Also, I loved that they pointed out several times how important it is to mode...more I have mixed feelings about this book.

Here’s what I liked about this book:

* The emphasis on consequences. It makes sense that, in order to learn about the real world, children should be allowed to experience consequences (within reason) so they can alter their behavior. And consequences cannot be given unless choices are also offered, within reason. I agree with that, too.

* Also, I loved that they pointed out several times how important it is to model good behavior for your children. I wholeheartedly agree!

And now, the juicy stuff. Here’s what I didn’t like:

* I’m a mom to a two-year-old, not a teenager — but they rarely seem to preface which age bracket would apply to certain scenarios. Obviously, the section titled “Pacifiers” was meant for toddlers (and thank HEAVENS Logan weaned off the pacifier a few months ago, or I probably would have ended up in tears over that chapter), but as for some of the other situations, I wasn’t sure. There is a specific “Love and Logic” book geared especially for toddlers, but it’s not at my public library, and after reading this one I’m not sure I want to hunt it down.

* Also, some of the sample dialogue of a parent with a child was hard to read without sarcasm — hardly very “loving.” They did warn against sarcasm in a chapter tucked away in the middle of the book, but to avoid it completely might be hard for parents. Phrases like “gee, son, I’m sorry that you got a D on your report card; that’s a real bummer” or “nice try, son, but you’ll have to think of another solution” could be said with love, but just parroting the book isn’t going to cut it (in fact, it could easily morph into one of the most unloving things you could say). Maybe this says more about me than about the book, but a lot of that sample dialogue made the parents out to be snide and manipulative.

* Lastly: I don’t really agree with how they say we should teach our kids about money. I went to a class during BYU Education Week that was a little off-beat on the whole allowance issue, saying that kids need less emphasis on learning money management and more emphasis on learning generosity. I tend to agree with that school of thought (though how exactly I want to implement that, I’m not sure yet). This book, though, took the money management thing to the extreme. Example: kids who wouldn’t eat what was made for dinner are consequently allowed to help themselves to something from the fridge — but ONLY if they paid for the food out of their allowances. I guess the thinking is that that the parents had already paid for one meal as part of their parental duties.

There are some good ideas to be taken from this book, but I think the kind of parent who would pick this book up is the parent who’s already doing a lot of the “good stuff” and probably doesn’t need a book to pick up on it.(less)

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10/27/08

Carmelle rated it:

In all fairness, had I written this review a couple weeks ago immediately after I read it, I probably would have given this book 3 stars. But since then, the points of contention for me have continued to annoy me, therefor Jim and Foster, I bestow only 2 little stars for you. I realize this book has great following and is perhaps the "Child Raising Bible" to many, however, I obviously was not sold.
The premise of this book is that children learn from mistakes. The natural conseque...more In all fairness, had I written this review a couple weeks ago immediately after I read it, I probably would have given this book 3 stars. But since then, the points of contention for me have continued to annoy me, therefor Jim and Foster, I bestow only 2 little stars for you. I realize this book has great following and is perhaps the "Child Raising Bible" to many, however, I obviously was not sold.
The premise of this book is that children learn from mistakes. The natural consequences that occur from their actions teach the child to continue or change their behavior. Example: A child touches a hot stove. The painful heat teaches the child not to do that again. No parent involvement was necessary. As parents, we counsel children, assisting them to see the problem at hand and brainstorm solutions for it. Then we stay hands off in the follow through. Owning the problem teaches them responsibility.
Some points I agree with:
As parents, we need to be "counselors" to our children
We should resist controlling our children's every decision
Children learn responsibility from mistakes
If we do not allow them to fail, they will not learn to succeed
Natural consequences are valuable
Some points I do not agree with:

My first issue came at the beginning of the book, as the authors gave their own testimonials to their theories, telling the readers that if anything in the book seems to ruffle our feathers or that our gut reaction disagrees, it is simply because this is not how we were raised, and because we want to be enlightened to a better way, we need to push aside those feelings of discomfort and believe the book. Ok, does this bring to mind The Emperor's New Clothes to anyone else? ("The only people to question anything must be stupid, now who wants to speak up??" And all the (wise) adults stand by praising the (non) clothes of the Emperor in the parade...) I guess I just have gripes with someone (even a reputable author) telling me that my intuition or gut feelings are wrong and to blindly follow their expert advise. (I have no idea where my stubborn children got it from...) But really, I believe that we are given intuition and "feelings" to guide our lives, including regarding what we read.
As parents, our role is solely to be counselors to our children (not said in so many words, but all examples, etc. led me to believe the authors truly end parental responsibility with "counseling" and "advising".) To me, counseling is one of many parental roles. And that role heightens as the child matures. This book seemed to neglect the roles of modeling and training, but instead just threw the kids out into the world to learn from one painful mistake after another. The authors advocate stepping in only at cost of "loss of limb or life." I believe there are also other consequences with a price tag too high to risk.
Some mistakes may eventually be learned through natural consequences, but what if that same lesson could have been learned in a much more timely manner without sacrificing years to the lesson. You can't get those years back.
Not all correct choices feel good, and not all bad choices feel bad. Sometimes we sacrifice external rewards in making the better choice. If we rely soley on others' reactions, we may "succeed" in some people's eyes in the short run. But really, can anyone please everyone? And should that be our goal? Of course not. So to teach our children to measure their success in such a way is ludicrous.
(less)

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01/15/09

Michael rated it:

Read in January, 2007

I don't rate many books with 5 stars, so you can bet this one is good. Gail and I have used these techniques and we were amazed at the children's response. Don't get me wrong, it's way easier to yell at your kids and smack them upside the head. But, if you want to actually get through to your kids and teach them the skills they will need to make appropriate decisions throughout their lives, this book will change yours. It was recommended to us by our pediatrician and had proven to be one of ...more

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05/08/08

Holly rated it:

Read in January, 2006

There are a lot of great techniques in this book, but some that I question. It seems that the object of L&L parenting is to be constantly teaching the child a lesson. I think that sometimes going out of your way to "teach them a lesson" is artificial and even on occasion harsh. I think about the way our Father in Heaven would parent us. He allows us to suffer the consequences of our mistakes but doesn't "rub it in", or set us up for failure.

Having listened to ...more

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08/06/07

Aspidistra rated it:

bookshelves: post-adoptionissues

I am not a fan of this book although I see that there are many useful concepts therein. The book is frequently recommended for parents adopting older children, but the whole tone of the book put me off. The authors seem to take pleasure in the ways they've invented to show children the natural consequences of misbehaviors. It's very meanspirited.

For post-institutionalized kids in particular, the whole concept of "natural consequences" may not even make sense to them at a...more

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04/11/09

Louisa rated it:

(review of isbn 0891093117)

This book sat on my shelves for a number of years until I recently discovered it. It makes sense and better yet it works!

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02/04/09

Rose rated it:

bookshelves: childrearing

Read in January, 2001

When I do fall back on punitive measurements, I generally use ideas from this book and How To Talk So Kids Will Listen and Listen So Kids Will Talk. I use the examples of natural consequences, though, only resorting to the logical ones when the kids are in serious danger at their own hands. In fact, I think "logical consequences" is a misnomer. We could substitute the words "calculated revenge" or maybe "poetic justice in vengeance-based parenting." If you're a...more

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05/16/09

Emily rated it:

bookshelves: nonfiction

Read in May, 2009

recommended to Emily by: Amy L., Maria

This was a good book to add to my "arsenal" of parenting skills. I've heard wonderful things about it. It was very similar to the last parenting book I read, "Making Children Mind Without Losing Yours." I found that book a little easier to understand and implement than this one. I LOVED that it focused on modeling good behavior, ditched the lecturing, and a especially wonderful thing to me-gave me the liberty to take time with my responses to naughty behavior. This book,...more

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03/20/09

Anne rated it:

Read in March, 2009

I can't bring myself to read a book like this more than about once a year, but this was a learning experience for me. I'm all about the idea that you want your kids to have a value system and view of themselves that comes from within, rather than living to please (or control) dominant figures in their lives, and I think this book does a good job of teaching that. I'm also all about letting kids learn to fail when it's safe for them so they can learn to be responsible--and learn that I'm on their...more

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06/26/08

Darci rated it:

There are some great things in this book, and also some weird things. Use your logic and what works for you. We should always speak to our children with love and understanding, being careful not to use sarcasm - which this book seems to use sometimes, but perhaps they don't mean it that way.... And I disagree with their ideas that seemed to use manipulation. Great concept of learning from consequences - of course, and also learning from example (ours).

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05/24/09

Synesthesia Gibson rated it:

I don't have kids yet.
That aside, at least this book isn't all break out the belt and woop that kid.
At the same time, if I was a kid, this book would annoy the living daylights out of me. I play video games quite a bit. If I was relaxing after a long day of school with some game, it would irk the living daylights out of me if my father came up to me and started lecturing me about playing video games. Especially if he sits in front of the television or internet for hours which amounts...more

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06/03/09

Arshia rated it:

I was so excited when my sister told me about this book, because I thought great there would be some techniques I could use with my kids and initially I did and some that I still do, but to be honest, parenting is such a difficult job. Every child and every situation is different, that not all the tactics can be used. I found that many of their suggestions and tips would be better applied to teenagers. But as any parent will say, it's all about being consistent and that's the most challenging...more

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05/17/09

Kate rated it:

bookshelves: being-parents

Read in May, 2009

I thought this book was okay. I agree with the principles - I think kids SHOULD make their own decisions and think for themselves, but I felt the execution of the principles was a little off. Most of the mock dialogue in the book came across as sarcastic and unfeeling. There were also a lot of gimmicks - some of which would be very traumatic for my kids. Like locking them in their rooms if their tantrums get really bad. Wow, you know?

In one chapter, the authors emphasized that you c...more

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06/17/09

Deena rated it:

I read this several years ago (not the updated version I guess) and I thought it had some good ideas, but again, it is always hard to remember this kind of stuff when you are in the middle of a situation. The biggest lesson I learned was not to be a helicopter parent, which I am guilty of at times (though not as bad as the ones they were describing). I think, however, that some of the consequences can be too harsh and dangerous. As with anything else on parenting, you have to tailor the advice w...more

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01/17/09

Lucy rated it:

Read in January, 2009

I have heard so much about Love and Logic style parenting that I thought I might already know all there is to know about it and didn't even need to read the book. On the off chance I was wrong, I checked it out.

Turns out, I knew very little. I had heard about the "give choices" aspect, but there were plenty of ideas that were brand new to me.

Written by a child psychologist and physician, Love and Logic is a parenting philosophy that seems to use Zen techniques t...more I have heard so much about Love and Logic style parenting that I thought I might already know all there is to know about it and didn't even need to read the book. On the off chance I was wrong, I checked it out.

Turns out, I knew very little. I had heard about the "give choices" aspect, but there were plenty of ideas that were brand new to me.

Written by a child psychologist and physician, Love and Logic is a parenting philosophy that seems to use Zen techniques to avoid angry confrontations with children and teach them personal responsibility through natural consequences. To teach them, a parent must never dictate what that child must do but rather manipulate, er...help, that child to decide between two acceptable outcomes. If a young child has a tempter tantrum when you tell them it's time to leave, instead of physically taking over or allowing your child to turn the situation into a never-ending negotiation, you ask, "Would you like to leave here with your feet on the floor or your feet in the air?" Supposedly, the freedom to choose solves all problems.

I don't disagree. I think there is much to be said about the dignity and responsibility of choice. I don't doubt that when run to perfection, the Love and Logic technique produces lovely, independent, resourceful children and more. The trouble I have is that it requires parents....me....to do our jobs flawlessly.

I'd love to implement Love and Logic techniques into our home. Sadly, as one of the adults that is required to make this work, I am also equipped with emotions that do not always bring out the most mature responses. Sometimes, when my children are being unreasonable, I lose my patience. No where, and I mean no where, did I see a situation in where a parent was allowed to do that. Our emotions and subsequent response to each and every situation needs to be calm, neutral and delivered with a robot matter-of-factness. The line the authors give if unable to think of an appropriate response is, "I love you too much to argue." Huh.

Another complaint I have with Love and Logic is that there doesn't seems to be a situation where the authors feel that the natural consequence wasn't the best consequence. If your child sleeps in, then they miss school. They can't bother you because that's not part of your day and if you need to leave then they have to pay for the sitter and they have to face the consequences at school for having an unexcused absence. In the very next chapter, the consequence for staying up late was being tired because you wake them up at 6:00 - no matter what. Wait. I agree that a consequence of staying up late is being tired the next day but what was that whole chapter about missing school?

The authors explain these consequences as paying a price. They argue that the price for learning these things is small and affordable when our children are young and much more costly if they are forced to learn these things as teenagers or, worse, adults themselves. I agree, and would even let my children stay up late or "pay" for an unexcused absence, but when one of the authors (I can't remember which one) wrote about teaching his 12 year old foster son about being on time and telling him, "I'll pick you up at 5:00 and will stay until 5:03. If you're not there then I'll come again at 10:00 and stay until 10:03. If you're not there then I'll come again at 7:00 in the morning." The boy missed the 5:00 pick up and only came out from behind a wall as he was about to drive off at 10:03. Was he seriously going to leave a 12 year old out all night long? To teach him about being late? Yikes. That sounds like a call to CPS to me, not good parenting. While we have to teach and train, we also must keep them safe and a 12 year old is not equipped to stay out all night.

Reading the book is just the tip of the ice berg. I find it ironic that the authors of Love and Logic bill this philosophy as "effective and easy to learn" but have also marketed the book into dozens of other, more detailed books, classes, movies, programs, websites and pamphlets. And, I don't think they are money wasted because as I have tried to apply what I learned from reading the book, I have found myself hitting all sorts of walls. It didn't answer all my questions and I need more information. That doesn't seem exactly "easy to learn."

As far as reading goes, the book is well organized. The first half takes you through the step by step reasoning behind the theory. The second half is separated into dozens of "pearls" which address specific "what if" situations. Even with those dozens available, my own particular, "what if" wasn't included. I'd love to know how to effectively help my oldest son stop being so hard on himself. But there was no pearl on what to do when your child says, "I'm an idiot." when I point out something he misspelled on his spelling homework. Somehow, saying, "I love you too much to argue" doesn't seem like the best response.

A great book club choice. This is a book that could be discussed all night. Probably even all year.(less)

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09/12/07

Michelle rated it:

(review of isbn 0891093117)

Read in January, 2002

recommends it for: parents

I can take the "emotion/anger" out of parenting. Well, it's supposed to. This is a book you will want to read and reread. There are so many situations that come up with your children and it gives you situational advice when you forget the reason why you became a parent in the first place.

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12/10/08

Arick rated it:

Read in July, 2008

Really learned a few skills, and revisited how I want to parent and the goals I have for my children. Recommend it and recommend putting into practice what is taught. Read if you have children.

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06/04/08

Adriana rated it:

Read in June, 2008

recommended to Adriana by: Radhika from temple

Attachment parenting meets logical consequences - definitely a challenging read, as it causes one to seriously analyze how we raise our children. Ask me for an embellishment sometime in person.

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06/04/07

Kara rated it:

(review of isbn 0891093117)

I thought this book was excellent! Parenting is so hard...and although I know it will continue to be difficult, I felt like this book gave me some great strategies.

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