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Le Ton Beau De Marot: In Praise Of The Music Of Language
Lost in an arts computational models of language and thought stack up next to the human mind.Le Ton beau de Marot is a sparkling, personal, and poetic exploration aimed at both the literary and the scientific world, and is sure to provoke great excitement and heated controversy among poets and translators, critics and writers, and those involved in the study of creativity ...more
Paperback, 832 pages
Published
May 23rd 1998
by Basic Books
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Another one of my all-time favorite books, this is by the author of "Godel, Escher, Bach". Impossible to categorize accurately, it's a kind of extended riff on the difficulties and challenges of translation, carried out with a kind of beguiling enthusiasm. It shares the playfulness that characterized "Godel, Escher, Bach" but I found it more accessible and more interesting.
Starting with a single unifying thread that winds through the entire book (various* translat...more
Starting with a single unifying thread that winds through the entire book (various* translat...more
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Isis
rated it
·
review of another edition
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review of another edition
Recommends it for:
translators and lovers of language
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(addition 5/12/2010)
I would mark this book six stars, if I could. This was my third (or fourth? Or fifth?) trip through, and I still think it's amazing, brilliant, quirky and fun. Basically, it asks: What should stay constant across translation of a work? Translation is normally thought of as to do with plot, mood, connotations of individual words – but what about rhyming, scansion, lipogrammatic constraints? Is transculturation a thing to avoid, or to work toward? If your vari...more
I would mark this book six stars, if I could. This was my third (or fourth? Or fifth?) trip through, and I still think it's amazing, brilliant, quirky and fun. Basically, it asks: What should stay constant across translation of a work? Translation is normally thought of as to do with plot, mood, connotations of individual words – but what about rhyming, scansion, lipogrammatic constraints? Is transculturation a thing to avoid, or to work toward? If your vari...more
Perfect for total compulsives, among whom I number myself when it comes to language. One of my favorite details of this book is when Hofstadter admits that he rewrote pages over and over again so that they would end in a happy place physically--that is, not only no widows or orphans (a huge no-no from my stance), but many pages end with the end of a sentence. It's also witty, light, insightful about translation from many different views of that task, a little bit sad, personal but not stupid, we...more
I finally finished this book over the weekend. I've been reading it for years--it's that kind of book. And it was sitting on my bookshelf for quite a while until I picked it up again last year.
I told someone it was one of my favorite books of all time to read. I know that sounds awkward but what I mean is that I like reading Douglas Hofstadter. He's a bit of a rambler but has such an interesting mind that I don't mind being taken hither and yon by him.
This book is essentially about t...more
I told someone it was one of my favorite books of all time to read. I know that sounds awkward but what I mean is that I like reading Douglas Hofstadter. He's a bit of a rambler but has such an interesting mind that I don't mind being taken hither and yon by him.
This book is essentially about t...more
Douglas Hofstadter is a great mind, and I loved the premise of the book, about the problem of translation from one tongue to another. However, I was often distracted from his points by what I perceived as his professorial arrogance. He invited several colleagues and friends from the IU community, as I remember, to translate a particular poem, and critiqued each one. There were several that, imho, I felt were superb in keeping closely to both the spirit and the language of the original. But to ...more
Covers many very interesting topics, such as language, translation, and machine learning, yet was really hard to get through because it meanders on too long on each one.
Though I skimmed some chapters, I'm glad I pushed all the way through, because it led me to a realization. He had the same realization, so I'll quote: "It was my own love for elegant structure that attracted me to poetry ... and yet ironically, for decades I considered myself to be ... a non-lover of poetry, so...more
Though I skimmed some chapters, I'm glad I pushed all the way through, because it led me to a realization. He had the same realization, so I'll quote: "It was my own love for elegant structure that attracted me to poetry ... and yet ironically, for decades I considered myself to be ... a non-lover of poetry, so...more
As someone else said, if I could give this book six stars, I would.
More "complete" than GEB, perhaps because it is more personal, Hofstadter nevertheless maintains his trademark diversions and sidetrips, without ever losing sight of his goal, which is to try and convey the insanity and joy of translation and to attempt understand why polylinguism is both a curse and a blessing.
And providing the spine of the book are the numerous translations of Ma Mignonne, all of whi...more
More "complete" than GEB, perhaps because it is more personal, Hofstadter nevertheless maintains his trademark diversions and sidetrips, without ever losing sight of his goal, which is to try and convey the insanity and joy of translation and to attempt understand why polylinguism is both a curse and a blessing.
And providing the spine of the book are the numerous translations of Ma Mignonne, all of whi...more
A book about many different translations of a small poem of Marot's. A book about the joys and difficulties of translation. A book of riffs on the theme of translation (translating jokes, machine translation). A book on the death of the author's wife.
Unfortunately "translation" doesn't seem to provide enough material to stretch to the full length, so I find reading the book as a whole repetitive or even burdensome by the end. I prefer Metamagical Themas and GEB because ...more
Unfortunately "translation" doesn't seem to provide enough material to stretch to the full length, so I find reading the book as a whole repetitive or even burdensome by the end. I prefer Metamagical Themas and GEB because ...more
As "Godel Escher Bach" is to computation, "Le Ton beau de Marot" is to language. This is a large book - 600 pages, interleaved with 80 translations of the same short poem each with commentary - and a joy for anyone interested in language, translation, AI, or Hofstadter. For a shorter, more focused read you could try to limit yourself to the story of his life-long obsession with languages (chapters 2, 3, 6, 15), his profession and vocation in cognitive science and artificial i...more
A fantastic book on the nature of translation. Although written in a rather quirky fashion and with a great deal of asides, Hofstadter argues well that translation, especially of the literary variety, is a complex and creative art form that requires the translator to examine and weigh not only basic, face-value semantic considerations, but intent and purpose of the author, levels of semantic construction, nuance, word play, tone, voice, vocabulary, rhythm, style, and form among other factors. ...more
An accidental find while in the linguistics stacks... having read (or attempted to read) "Godel Escher Bach" several years ago, I was too curious to not pick this one up, annoying fonts notwithstanding,...
So, I must say that this one is a much more layman-approach dealing with the subject of translation than I had anticipated from Hofstadter, and I got through it in a surprisingly short amount of time. There is much (a bit too much) in the way of invective against grandstanding ...more
So, I must say that this one is a much more layman-approach dealing with the subject of translation than I had anticipated from Hofstadter, and I got through it in a surprisingly short amount of time. There is much (a bit too much) in the way of invective against grandstanding ...more
Maria M.
rated it
·
review of another edition
·
review of another edition
Recommends it for:
lovers of language and people interested in translation.
As you'll know by now, I'm typically a very fast reader. This book, however, took me almost a year to get through. I started in September 2006 and only just finished this morning. It's not that it's a bad book - in fact, it's really interesting! - it's just incredibly heavy to get through so I could only cope with a little bit each day.
I'd highly recommend this book to anybody interested in translations and language in general as Hofstadter has a fascinating way of describing both. ...more
I'd highly recommend this book to anybody interested in translations and language in general as Hofstadter has a fascinating way of describing both. ...more
This is one of my favorite books and one of the most unique I've ever read. The book is a playful and intelligent look at the vagaries, difficulties, and joys of translating even the simplest literary work from one language to another. Hofstadter takes up Clement Marot's "A une Damoyselle malade"--a french poem of 28 3-syllable lines--and attempts to translate it into English. There are many (over 80, I believe) translations in the book, each displaying different qualities of the origi...more
If you like "words", poetry, good writing, even word games, you might well love this book. Hofstader takes a small 28 line child's poem and attempts to translate it into English. He enlists his friends to help. The complexities of translation are exposed and you venture on at the end toward the complexities of the translation of Dante's Inferno. I assumed this was going to be one boring book---instead it fascinated me and I immediately wanted to start writing poetry!
I bought it inspired by Godel Escher Bach, but although it has lots of interesting
elements, I find it quite exhausting. Maybe that's because the playfulness I appreciated in the mathematical domain in GEB in this book, applied to the linguistic and literary domain, turns into pointless speculation. At least for me.
(And the typography is a crime. Note: never, ever let authors design their books!)
elements, I find it quite exhausting. Maybe that's because the playfulness I appreciated in the mathematical domain in GEB in this book, applied to the linguistic and literary domain, turns into pointless speculation. At least for me.
(And the typography is a crime. Note: never, ever let authors design their books!)
If you know Hofstadter only from Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, this is an amazing continuation. It is far more personal, a tribute to the love of his life. It is also an absolute joy for an amateur (or professional?) linguist.
Entertaining observations on language and translation, which would be close to the heart of anyone who's ever tried to translate a text.
Much less scientific than expected (I thought it would be a proper linguistics book) and also in this edition the cover design and the font choices leave much to be desired.
Much less scientific than expected (I thought it would be a proper linguistics book) and also in this edition the cover design and the font choices leave much to be desired.
È un libro in un certo senso triste, visto che ricorda la morte della moglie di Hofstadter. Non per nulla Doug non ha mai voluto che fosse tradotto in altre lingue, perché è troppo personale.
Però è un must have per chi è interessato alla creatività e ai problemi della traduzione.
Però è un must have per chi è interessato alla creatività e ai problemi della traduzione.
This is a fantastic exploration into the translation of one poem. It helps to know French so you can appreciate the different translations, howwever they are such different takes on the same entity that just reading thhe many translations gives you an idea of what you're missing. Brilliant.
In my opinion, Hofstadter's best book. Absolutely inspiring, thought-provoking, emotionally touching. It's one of the very, very few books I end up recommending with enthusiasm to people whose intelligence I appreciate – I don't think there's any non-fiction book I like better.
Crazy and frustrating book: the painstaking step-by-step mapping out of its territory leaves one tugging at the reins to get on - and yet, the journey he takes one on is vast, idiosyncratic and so off one's own track and so out of one's comfort zone at times. Quite fascinating.
It's taken me a very long time to finish this book, but it's been a labor of love. I recommend it to anyone who is multilingual and/or has any interest in poetry and translation.
Z
rated it
Recommends it for:
anyone who likes books you can pick up and read in the middle and enjoy the book with no context
Absolutely masterful writing from an author who has evolved from highly serious analysis to casual discussion. Hofstadter is a thinker through and through.
Not only an amazing book, a lot of eerie synchronicity with my life...
I have a real soft spot for this book. It's more about grief than poetry.
I kind of can't wait to clasp my grubby hands on this book.
A must read for anybody who enjoys languages
Perhaps I am too tired to give it its due.
OK, so now I really finished it and while I did enjoy it, it wasn't nearly as interesting and worth obsessing over like Godel, Escher, Bach. I would recommend this to anyone who loves languages (and it's best if you know French or Italian since there's a lot of those two in there) and as a closer look at translation it's wonderful. I especially liked the attention paid to Machine Translation since Hofstadter is in the unique position to talk about it from first hand experience from his researc...more
W.
added it
I really can't say anything about this book that hasn't already been said. This is the more organic and human sequel to GEB, much denser and more complex, takes forever to read, and is deeply moving and personal in a way the whimsy of GEB never gets. A book for GEB lovers to read when they get out of college.
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Douglas Richard Hofstadter is an American academic whose research focuses on consciousness, thinking and creativity. He is best known for his book Gödel, Escher, Bach: an Eternal Golden Braid, first published in 1979, for which he was awarded the 1980 Pulitzer Prize for general non-fiction.
Hofstadter is the son of Nobel Prize-winning physicist Robert Hofstadter. Douglas grew up on the ...more
More about Douglas R. Hofstadter...
Hofstadter is the son of Nobel Prize-winning physicist Robert Hofstadter. Douglas grew up on the ...more
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