Ishmael: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit

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Ishmael: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit

by Daniel Quinn

3.88 · rating details · 22,616 ratings · 2,249 reviews

The narrator of this extraordinary tale is a man in search for truth. He answers an ad in a local newspaper from a teacher looking for serious pupils, only to find himself alone in an abandoned office with a full-grown gorilla who is nibbling delicately on a slender branch. "You are the teacher?" he asks incredulously. "I am the teacher," the gorilla replies. Ishmae...more

Paperback, 263 pages

Published December 16th 2009 by Bantam (first published November 1st 1991)

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May 26, 2007

Keely rated it

Shelves: contemporary-fiction, novel, reviewed, american

Are you the sort of person who hears other people discussing books and finding yourself wondering how they can even form opinions on stories? I mean, either you like it or you don't, right?

Well, if that's you, then read this book, The Giver, and Siddhartha (if that sounds like too much, substitute Jonathan Livingston Seagull for the latter). Once you've done that, you'll feel all sorts of strange emotions and ideas swirling around inside you and you, too, will be able to talk about ...more

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Keely Too opaque?

It means that the symbolic language is drawn from a single source, and that as the metaphorical relationship is extended, the new...more
Nov 18, 2010 01:19pm

Keely Thanks for the comment, it's been a while. Arrival at mutual understanding can indeed be daunting. Even if both participants share a love of discourse...more
Nov 22, 2010 06:08am

Mar 26, 2008

Sherri Scoffield rated it

This book gets many 5-star reviews and is touted as “life changing”.
My comment: “GET A LIFE!!!” This could possibly be THE WORST book I have ever read. I have been reading this book forever! I am so glad I am finished!
It’s 200+ pages of torture! (This size of book I would normally devour in 1-2 days.) It’s a sociology lecture --- a cringingly horrible, horrible, didactic book. And to top it off, it’s horribly written.

This telepathic gorilla pontificates on culture, h...more

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Sep 05, 2008

Anna rated it

Shelves: thought

My biggest problem with primitivism as a philosophy is its inherent hypocrisy. Notice how it's always highly educated white dudes insulated from the world who clamor for a return to some idealized "simpler" life? In the case of this book, it's a distinguished professor haughtily preaching about how we should learn some lessons from hunter-gatherer people, channeling his philosophy through a gorilla character who converses with an "everyman" character. Ishmael the gorilla make...moreMy biggest problem with primitivism as a philosophy is its inherent hypocrisy. Notice how it's always highly educated white dudes insulated from the world who clamor for a return to some idealized "simpler" life? In the case of this book, it's a distinguished professor haughtily preaching about how we should learn some lessons from hunter-gatherer people, channeling his philosophy through a gorilla character who converses with an "everyman" character. Ishmael the gorilla makes a passing derogatory mention of the "noble savage" idea, then spends the rest of the book romanticizing and idealizing the hunter-gatherer cultures, trying to get across the idea that modern Western people have trouble seeing merit in such cultures because we've been brainwashed by our industrialized society.

But the thing is, going back to a hunter-gatherer lifestyle would mean a goodbye to literacy, to book publishing, to all the things without which Daniel Quinn and others like him would have no more literary soapbox to stand on. Instead, he'd be busy carrying his life on his back as he trudged across the plains looking for food and trying to not get eaten by lions. He'd die before the age of 40 of some perfectly treatable disease -- that is, if he hadn't died while being born or during childhood.

The extreme utopianism and naivete pissed me off so much that I did some research on the anarcho-primitivist philosophy behind it. Turns out my views on this matter match those of Noam Chomsky, who wrote the following in "Chomsky on Anarchism":

I do not think they are realizing that what they are calling for is the mass genocide of millions of people because of the way society is now structured and organized, urban life and so forth. If you eliminate these structures, everybody dies. For example, I can't grow my own food. It's a nice idea, but it's not going to work, not in this world. And in fact, none of us want to live a hunter-gatherer life. There are just too many things in life that the modern world offers us. In just plain terms of survival, what they are calling for is the worst mass genocide in human history. And unless one thinks through these things, it's not really serious.

Indeed, mass genocide is exactly what Quinn advocates in "Ishmael." One of his arguments is that the world's population is growing and draining the Earth's resources, and to control the population we must reduce the food supply, specifically to the parts of the world that are already experiencing famine. To put it another way, he's in favor of starving a million people in Africa and India whose only crime was being born in the wrong time and the wrong place. Nice, Dr. Quinn. Why not just make it simpler and kill off the poorest 10 percent of the world's population? That part of the book smelled a lot like Jonathan Swift's "Modest Proposal" to me, except unfortunately Quinn is not an intentional satirist.

Another issue was the deeply rooted sexism in both the language and the thought process. Here's a quote about why "Mother Culture" is always feminine in the text: "Culture is a mother everywhere and at every time, because culture is inherently a nurturer..." Because of course, a woman's role is always as mother and nurturer and not much else.

The starting premise of this book is that the human race is quickly destroying the Earth, and we will kill ourselves and take the planet with us if we don't stop. This is a premise with actual scientific proof behind it. Humans believe that they are the end-all be-all of evolution, and therefore the planet belongs to them to do as they please with no regard for other species or life forms, and that's what's going to kill us, sooner than later. Nothing to disagree with, there. But Quinn's "solution" is a bunch of hypocritical and unrealistic drivel.

All that being said, I know that for some people (including my boyfriend, who loves this book and is the reason I read it in the first place), "Ishmael" is what opened their eyes to the dire need to protect the environment. That's great. I just hope that no one ends their search for a solution with this book and this philosophy.(less)

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May 16, 2008

Cootie Twoshoes rated it

Shelves: fiction

I've read about 20 reviews of Ishmael, and of those no one mentioned how extremely sexist this book is. It isn't just in the language (constantly referring to humans as man or mankind), but it's also actively present in the dialog. For example, this is a direct quote from a character answering why he refers to culture in the feminine, "Culture is a mother everywhere and at every time, because culture is inherently a nurturer..." There is also this big "reinterpretation" of...moreI've read about 20 reviews of Ishmael, and of those no one mentioned how extremely sexist this book is. It isn't just in the language (constantly referring to humans as man or mankind), but it's also actively present in the dialog. For example, this is a direct quote from a character answering why he refers to culture in the feminine, "Culture is a mother everywhere and at every time, because culture is inherently a nurturer..." There is also this big "reinterpretation" of the story of Adam & Eve in which the overarching blame for the "Fall of Man" ends up on the woman. Just like in the original story.

Okay, nothing downright shocking but what pisses me off is that this book is supposed to be this radical challenge to mainstream thinking. It challenges what we hold as basic truths by rattling the very foundations of our belief systems. In many ways this books does that very well, but it cannot be complete when the representative voice of the nonhuman world continues to reinforce patriarchy. Not very iconoclastic.

Also, the overuse of Socratic method in the dialog was too much. Probably 90% of the book. I mean, come on. The questions were always asked as if there could only be one answer, which ended up leaving some holes.

All that said the main argument of the book is that human beings are doomed exactly because we in "civilization" believe ourselves to be the most important aspect of the world and that we should therefore conquer & rule everything below us. We've been living at odds with the nonhuman world since the dawn of agriculture.

This coincides with another book I'm reading. In No Turning Back Freedman traces the domination & oppression of women back to the same period of time, when women were recognized for their ability to not only be a source of labor but to also produce children, another source of labor. This was the beginning of property, and women & their children were subjugated as property of men.

Unfortunately the teacher in Ishmael gives little hope for change. He advocates a shift to hunter/gatherer culture as the only solution to this planet's dire situation wrought by humankind (he does not say a "return to" since hunter/gatherer societies have their own story of progress, much different than that of agriculturally based societies). His strategy is to instruct his student to seek his own students in order to send this message into human culture. I wholeheartedly believe in education as fundamental to positive change, but at the end of this book, I felt like it was a bleak and futile solution to the complex of problems facing the planet since humans entered the neolithic era. (less)

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Cootie Twoshoes Well, glory be, I've got comments on my review! And, it looks like they've only been languishing for a year plus. Maybe it's just as well, because I...moreWell, glory be, I've got comments on my review! And, it looks like they've only been languishing for a year plus. Maybe it's just as well, because I see that I've been mansplained... twice!

In response to H3llo41's comment, Peter is right, the book isn't as Olde as H3llo might have us believe, but my question is, what difference does that make to my point? The people loving this book right now are not talking about the sexism in its pages, and if you read my review, you'll see that I take issue with how people today are discussing and embracing it. It turns out the author is just another male throwing the weight of his privilege around. My lack of surprise still makes a sound, sort of like the habitual grinding of teeth, even if no one is around to hear it. Nonetheless, is the book's sexism really invisible to so many readers? Or, is it simply deemed unworthy of discussion?

This is his response to my take on some of the language, "The word "Mankind" and "Man" isnt very sexist either, its a general word describing human." Joshua J. takes a similar stance. Just because it's "grammatically correct here" doesn't mean it somehow cancels out its own misogyny. 'Cause, guess what, once upon a recent time women were not legally considered human (and in some parts of the world still aren't), so the only people who were human were men, and language was shaped by this. Men (specific men, at that) are the default humans, and even after women gained some legal rights, the word "mankind" is still deemed sufficient by men to describe everyone.

Although I had to take a machete to the thicket of grammar & spelling, I believe Joshua J. is for real telling a woman what her experience living in a sexist society has been, that she does not understand the dangers of calling sexism as she encounters it. And, he does so at length, which makes it a fine example of mansplaining. As a bonus, there's this gem, "I do however do not believe it was forward in pushing any sexist view which is an entirely differet ball game." Wha-? No, it isn't different. It's the exact same thing. Having sexist connotations equals "pushing any sexist view."

And that little "hu-woman" joke is a real stinker. Sheesh.

There is nothing here exceeding truly basic feminist theory. If you want to edify yourself, there are piles of excellent intro resources in print and online. A good place to start is finallyfeminism101.blogspot.com.(less)
Mar 21, 2011 10:25am

Aaron The ideas about industrial/agricultural civilization can be expressed without the language of mythology, adam/eve, biblical sojourns.

I don't...more
Oct 19, 2011 10:52am

Mar 24, 2010

Esteban del Mal rated it

Recommends it for: Jungians who like it didactic style; the epiphany challenged

Recommended to Esteban by: a karma vampire

Shelves: fiction, novel, bad-juju

Step right up, ladies and gentlemen! Behold the majesty of Curious George as he gets all dialogue-y on your ass! Your encounter will leave you changed! You, too, may find yourself flinging poop at civilization along with our simian savior!

A telepathic gorilla develops something like consciousness, is happily able to flower under the attentive stewardship of a George Soros-type philanthropist and waxes philosophical to a disenchanted idealist. This book stinks of anthropological and ...more

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Jan 26, 2009

Tatiana rated it

Recommends it for: nobody

Shelves: fantasy

I haven't finished this book yet but I probably won't because it sucks. First of all, it's supposed to be a novel but it's entirely didactic. The author has simply substituted this gorilla to preach at us in the author's voice. The viewpoint character is simple minded and vacuous to the point of not existing. In fact, he's just there as the foil or receptacle for the gorilla's teachings. The central thesis of the gorilla's thoughts, which he presents as unassailable fact, is the supposition...moreI haven't finished this book yet but I probably won't because it sucks. First of all, it's supposed to be a novel but it's entirely didactic. The author has simply substituted this gorilla to preach at us in the author's voice. The viewpoint character is simple minded and vacuous to the point of not existing. In fact, he's just there as the foil or receptacle for the gorilla's teachings. The central thesis of the gorilla's thoughts, which he presents as unassailable fact, is the supposition that human population will ALWAYS increase to use all available food supply, something that simply isn't true in any of the developed countries. If it weren't for immigration, of course, the U.S. and most of Western Europe would have falling populations. The author dismisses this massive flaw in his edifice of cards by saying someone somewhere will eat the food or else people would stop growing it. Okay, so he then doesn't notice that if people stop growing food because there's nobody to eat it, then the population is limiting itself and the human species is not doing its job of multiplying, engulfing, and devouring as he claims it always must.

It's the same old stuff the Club of Rome said in the 70s and so on and so on from Malthus to the present. It comes about because people don't realize that trends do change in response to changing situations. Women empowered with birth control to choose their family size have less children. Fishers who realize fish stocks are depleted do change their methods and either enact laws limiting catch sizes, or turn to farming, or become conservationists of wild species.

The human species has lived off mother earth's bounty for all its childhood and adolescence, but it IS growing up, and will eventually nurture all the world's resources in a realistic way leading to complete sustainability. There's nothing improbable about that.

Some of the things the author doesn't realize follow.

In space the resources are truly unlimited. We're not in a closed petri dish. We just have to reach out and develop what's there.

We make new resources all the time with advances in technology. Worthless sand becomes useful glass, then even more useful microchips. Black sludge becomes a fuel or a plastic container. The more we know the more we see worthless things around us turn into jewels under our hands.

Before human stewardship, life on earth was far from safe and cozy. Asteroid impacts destroyed nearly all living things on several different occasions (Cambrian, Permian, Cretaceous, etc.) and could do so again, even more completely, if humans aren't technologically advanced enough to prevent it. The history of life is riddled with catastrophes that weren't caused by humans.

There's so much more, I could write a novel. But you get the picture. Please save your efforts for some book that will entertain you or teach you something true. This one is useless for either.(less)

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Rob what a great review. i did read the whole thing, gritting my teeth in fury most of the way. i dislike the word "evil", but it's the word t...more
Jan 26, 2009 07:27pm

Tatiana Thanks, I'm glad you liked it. :)
Jan 26, 2009 08:10pm

Adamradabaugh I disagree, the author doesn't claim that all of humanity is doomed to "multiplying, engulfing, and devouring" as you say in fact I would sa...more
Oct 26, 2009 10:55am

Jul 18, 2008

Palsay rated it

· review of another edition

Recommends it for: everyone

Recommended to Palsay by: Hilman

Shelves: phenomenal, translated-fiction, light-philosophy

Aku masih memandangi buku yang baru saja selesai kubaca, tiba-tiba gambar disampulnya yang tadinya tidak kuperhatikan kini menjadi begitu berarti.

Sejak halaman terakhir kukatupkan, aku merasa letupan-letupan yang ada dalam benakku mulai lepas kontrol. Mereka sudah menjadi ledakan yang tak sanggup kukendalikan. Aku meringsut, kembali membuka-buka beberapa halaman yang entah untuk keperluan apa kulipat diujung-ujungnya. Suasana tengah malam sunyi, namun seolah didalam kepalaku ada rat...more

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Mar 26, 2007

kevin rated it

The reason I like Quinn’s style in “Ishmael” is that he doesn’t assume a pedantic perch atop humanity and force-feed a philosophically-driven, A-Z laundry list of “how to make yourself a better human being” and “save the world one person at a time” mantra down the reader’s throat. His style of writing is intimate. Reading “Ishmael” kind of reminds you of sitting in lecture with that one professor in college whose class you earnestly enjoyed and looked forward to attending each week - those lec...moreThe reason I like Quinn’s style in “Ishmael” is that he doesn’t assume a pedantic perch atop humanity and force-feed a philosophically-driven, A-Z laundry list of “how to make yourself a better human being” and “save the world one person at a time” mantra down the reader’s throat. His style of writing is intimate. Reading “Ishmael” kind of reminds you of sitting in lecture with that one professor in college whose class you earnestly enjoyed and looked forward to attending each week - those lectures where you felt as if taking notes was more of an inconvenient distraction than simply opening your ears and listening for 60 minutes. You got more out of it by just sitting there like a blob taking it all in as opposed to fretting over particulars. You can tell Quinn is (or was) a good teacher. A good teacher defined as one who guides his/her students to the answers to their questions; not one who regurgitates, spoon-feeds or paraphrases concepts, principles and opinions down your throat systematically. Like Ishmael's narrator, I too found myself excited to come back each day (via turning the next page) to learn another part of the “story.”

What I find fascinating about this book is the power of its seemingly simplistic message: “Man unto himself is temporal phenomenon.” Quinn doesn’t waste his time extrapolating the myriad of problems that affect our world to make his point. He doesn’t bother to persuade or guilt the reader into action with “doomsday” scenarios, statistics, outcomes or make sententious arguments to bolster his credibility as a “thinker.” Instead, he plainly examines the most basic function of the human species and how the organization of its functionality became – well, dysfunctional. Regardless of whether you factor God, evolution or “little green men” into your respective paradigm to help you make sense of humanity, its purpose and ultimate destiny - refuting the message in this book is unreasonable. Human beings are the most evolved, intelligent and capable species on the planet. As such, we find ourselves amidst a paradox. We are progenitor to the earth as well as the root source of its impending (or at least eventual) devastation.

Ishmael is not a book whose scope is easily confined to the adverse effects of humanity on the environment or excess population or invasion of one civilization by another throughout history or how we’re killing the polar bear into extinction, etc. Its message is simply that man has forgotten his place in the order of nature (in a very large context) and that happened the moment man was cognizant of his innate ability to differentiate good vs. evil as a species. As a result, man began to use that acumen as an instinctual instrument to serve as justification for what “lives” and what “dies” pursuant to ensuring his unlimited growth – at any expense. - KL

(less)

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Jun 30, 2007

Lobeck rated it

Recommends it for: people who don't know anything and are willing to be treated like idiots

Shelves: least-favorite-of-all-time

i could crap a better book than this. it's condescending and trying to be profound but very simplistic. if you've already been introduced to basic ideas about we're ruining the earth and need to get our act together, you'll learn nothing new here. and the whole wise teacher/pupil thing is so cliche. so what if he's a gorilla?

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Jul 11, 2007

Pericles' rated it

At its core, Ishmael is a narrative about a grand narrative. It aims high, and its failure to achieve what it sets out to do is ultimately more interesting than its stated premise.

Ishmael, however, is conscious of this failing--indicated by Quinn's allusion to Plato's cave. But unlike other modern works which use the form of the Grand Narrative to critique or subvert it (the first Matrix film being the most widely recognized example, and many of the short stories of Borges being ...more

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Jan 14, 2008

Regis rated it

Are you over forty years old but have somehow slid through life without forming a single firm philosophical principle? Have you missed your chance to take a stand – any stand at all? Do you have a vague dislike of society - a nascent antiestablishmentarianism that you've never given voice to - but lack the courage and curiosity necessary to give form to your rebellion? Are you nominally scientific (or hell, nominally religious), but willing to believe that ancient humans were psychic, vegetar...more

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Apr 08, 2008

Marty rated it

Recommends it for: intellectuals that are looking for an ass-kicking

At a Borders parking lot back home, it was spray-painted into the pavement "READ ISHMAEL"
That's basically how I first heard about it and read it. Especially since I parked over the spray-painted message time and time again.
Would people really read this book if it was called "Ricardo" or "Paul"...I say no.
So thanks for giving it this name that nobody has except for people obsessed with Moby Dick, which I have not come across.

I think inte...more

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Oct 04, 2007

Jesse rated it

Recommends it for: All

A little story about Ishmael by Daniel Quinn:

I first read this back in the fall of '99 for a college course. It was a time in my life where (for a variety of reasons, including a breakup of a long relationship) I was first began to think for myself, instead of think what others wanted me to think. This book completely wiped away the world view that my parents, friends, and teachers had put into my head for so many years, and then began the formation of my own view. Since then I ha...more

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Dec 27, 2010

Brian rated it

Shelves: reviewed

This review is divided into "extended" and "brief" analysis of the book in question. The extended version precedes the brief, which can be found by at the bottom of the text. Minors spoilers are found throughout the extended review.

In Ishmael Daniel Quinn uses a charming setup to examine how civilization justifies its use (and abuse) of environments. Questions of cultural identity, the anthropology of fiction, sustainable development, and the ethics of consum...more

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Apr 17, 2008

Lori rated it

Recommends it for: all of mankind

Recommended to Lori by: Joe Cannon

This book was recommended to me from my Ecology teacher on Saturday. I bought it the same day because i really needed a decent read... i having been craving all the time lately.
I did not put it down until i was done with it two days later.
The premise is a man talking to a gorilla... however simple and idiotic that made seem to you, this story reveals to me what i have always believed to be the reasons for the way we live in modern society. It details the way in which our society h...more

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Jun 27, 2007

Max Ostrovsky rated it

· review of another edition

Shelves: contemporary, philosophy, fiction

Although, purposefully didactic, it was beautiful. It read incredibly fast, but it sits with you for a very long time. Imagine eating something quick and cheap like a taco bell burrito only to discover that once it reached your stomach, it felt like a 7 course meal at a 5 star restaurant. Definitely plenty of intellectual bang for your buck.

Lately, absurdly leftist books such as the previously reviewed Illuminatus! Trilogy have just pissed me off with their "all we need is to l...more

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Sep 14, 2011

Sam rated it

Recommends it for: At least 15+ There is nothing bad in here, but comprehension may be a problem.

Recommended to Sam by: Teacher

Shelves: books-that-make-me-cry

This book was an extra credit book for school, so basically required. Now, let me point out that it took me almost a MONTH to read this book. (Mainly due to procrastination, boredom, and journals we had to write after each chapter). Now, in the beginning, I thought that this was one of the most boring books ever written. If it wasn't for school, I would have dropped it. Yep, just stopped reading. I don't do that very often. By the middle I was like "You know, this isn't as bad as it seemed...more

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Mar 05, 2009

Kathryn rated it

Don't read this book. It was miserable.

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Nov 22, 2011

C.G. Worrell rated it

Put on your "willing suspension of disbelief" glasses. A giant telepathic gorilla is about to teach a jaded writer what it means to be civilized. I sucked this down in four days for a book club meeting. Using the Socratic method, Ishmael the gorilla leads the protagonist on a journey of cultural re-evaluation. What happened 10,000 years ago that led humans to where we are today: a planet of Takers consuming resources like a plague of locusts?
Ishmael is not a sanctimonious b...more

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Sep 13, 2010

John Clark rated it

Shelves: sustainability

We, the people of our culture, are the inheritors and administrators of a grave evil. Strong evidence of this evil is blazed in the destruction of our environment, which is clearly caused by humans. Sadly, we have been taught, and we continue to teach others, that this evil is actually good: not that we should be destroying our environment, but that it is a consequence of an otherwise noble pursuit of our culture. With "Ishmael", Daniel Quinn bravely explores and exposes the destructiv...moreWe, the people of our culture, are the inheritors and administrators of a grave evil. Strong evidence of this evil is blazed in the destruction of our environment, which is clearly caused by humans. Sadly, we have been taught, and we continue to teach others, that this evil is actually good: not that we should be destroying our environment, but that it is a consequence of an otherwise noble pursuit of our culture. With "Ishmael", Daniel Quinn bravely explores and exposes the destructive consequences of the assumptions of this culture.

"Ishmael" is a very important book, if the previous paragraph wasn't dramatic enough for you. It asks us some very hard questions, starting with why are we destroying our beautiful home, the Earth? Next up is does it have to be this way? (Spoiler: no.)

The book does have a number of idiosyncrasies that have alienated a number of readers; still, I exhort you to read this book and consider its arguments. Yes, the eponymous character is a telepathic gorilla; this is simply a device to project the arguments beyond the imposed isolation of civilization, to make us think about what nature could be teaching us if we tried to listen to it. Because of this, the book is technically fiction, but it is a thin veneer around a philosophy lecture. Yes, the author is a part of the culture he is criticizing. Yes, he uses fairly standard gender-weighted language ("man", "mankind", "Mother Culture"). How do either of these detract from his arguments? There are also some more substantive problems with the book, like the fact that he encourages the development of civilization without defining what he means by that, but these problems do not affect his main conclusions.

While this book contains philosophy and ambitious historical analysis wrapped in a thin candy coating, the philosophy is still presented very clearly. Quinn is not shy about his ideas; indeed, he lays them out in excruciating detail. For however much you may like or dislike his style, you still must account honestly for the substance of his arguments and his conclusions.(less)

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Sep 08, 2008

Aaron rated it

This book was worth reading but many parts bothered me. First Ishmael makes incorrect statements about how nature works, and asserts that humans have violated these rules, which is the source of our discontents. E.g. Ishmael states that other species do not attack competitors. This is false. Species will attack predators whenever there is an adaptive advantage to do so. Ishmael also states that predators never take more than they can eat. This is also false. I read an article about how pr...more

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Ryan Two factual points regarding your review:

"E.g. Ishmael states that other species do not attack competitors."

This is inc...more
Apr 19, 2010 12:58pm

Aaron I appreciate the comment. I never expected anyone but friends to read my brief little review, so I didn't try to make my wording legally perfect or e...moreI appreciate the comment. I never expected anyone but friends to read my brief little review, so I didn't try to make my wording legally perfect or elucidate fully. Nonetheless, after rereading relevant passages, my criticism remains.

Yes, I see the wording on pg. 126, and I am still quite sure it gets evolution, and resulting animal behavior, incorrect. Right after the baboon passage you mention is Ishmael's concluding point on the matter: "The point to see is that, although baboons will go looking for food, they will never go looking for leopards... When animals go hunting—even extremely aggressive animals like baboons—it’s to obtain food, not to exterminate competitors or even animals that prey on them.” Anyone familiar with animal behavior and Darwinian evolution here will scratch their head in amazement at these statements. An animal will do these things whenever natural selection finds it advantageous. For example, water buffalo regularly "hunt" lion cubs proactively just to stomp on them. This is not for food or to defend from an immediate threat. It is to stamp out future predators. That behavior is directly contrary to Ishmael's claim. Another example is chimps have been observed in the wild systematically annihilating competing groups, getting them down to the point where they are just a few females that they will then absorb.

"I don't believe lions end up locked in a room with a bunch of gazelles on too frequent a bases in natural conditions"
This does happen. I was watching National Geographic a while back and a bunch of domesticated donkeys walked into several lions' territory in Africa. The 2-3 lions systematically killed more than 20 donkeys, (who unlike zebras were too stupid to run) several times more than they could eat before the meat putrefied. They did it apparently for sheer pleasure. Natural selection gives lions a thrill when they kill something. The only reason this doesn't happen all the time in the wild is because natural selection gives Zebras defense mechanisms that the domestic donkeys didn't have - not because there is some natural etiquette that the lions are obeying.

I would love to see an actual evolutionary biologist review the book. I couldn't find one online. I am merely a science-major and mammalogy and evolution enthusiast.(less)
Apr 19, 2010 02:14pm

Conspiracy2riot the book starts off dealing with 'captivity'. something you use to illustrate your point about quinn having his facts wrong about predators. i suppose...more
Sep 29, 2011 10:07am

Jan 28, 2008

Lilith rated it

Recommends it for: Everyone and their brother.

Recommended to Lilith by: Eve Benjelloun

My cousin introduced me to Daniel Quinn while I was visiting her in September, and though I was only getting summaries via print-outs of his various lectures, I fell in love with his ideas. The narrative tale of Ishmael - a telepathic teacher/student relationship between a gorilla and disillusioned youth, respectively - is a thinly veiled attempt on Quinn's part to present his anthropological arguments in a more entertaining way. The weakness in the narrative is almost always negated by Quinn's ...moreMy cousin introduced me to Daniel Quinn while I was visiting her in September, and though I was only getting summaries via print-outs of his various lectures, I fell in love with his ideas. The narrative tale of Ishmael - a telepathic teacher/student relationship between a gorilla and disillusioned youth, respectively - is a thinly veiled attempt on Quinn's part to present his anthropological arguments in a more entertaining way. The weakness in the narrative is almost always negated by Quinn's theory, which makes the book oddly difficult to put down. Quinn takes a very Nietzschian approach to his analysis of human history, refusing to give way to the temptation to analyze human history - pre and post agricultural revolution - through the principals of divinity. He instead crafts the most convincing and urgent argument I have ever been exposed to against that very urge. Upon carefully reading the text, one will find that this is all Quinn does attack - the belief in the right to decide what, en masse, may live and die, and the belief to ownership over the earth. He does not promote the immediate cessation of agriculture, making the point that agriculture existed before the agricultural revolution, but was not spread and forced upon other tribes until that point. His points regarding humanitarian aid to famine-ravaged areas are also difficult to stomach, but they are also valid. It is important to note that most countries in need of such aid are only in such a position because of imperialist conquests for their land and resources, and that the idea of saving everyone goes as much against sacrificing the 'one right way' mentality as the idea of killing them does. Because many, if not all, of the huge problems we as a global society grapple with are cause by the idea of entitlement and divine ownership, and because society shows no signs of reverting back to its old tribal self, one must question the appropriate course of action to take regarding them. Ishmael also left me wondering why, after hundreds of thousands of years, the mentality Quinn attacks just happened to develope. Though Ishmael ultimately asks a few more questions than it answers, it is an eye opening book and reshaped my views on human history, cultural identity, and the condition of modern day society. (less)

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Apr 16, 2008

Marty rated it

Recommends it for: patient, thoughtful readers

Daniel Quinn's books offer two things: 1.) a challenge to read 2.) the reward of better understanding how the planet's connundrums (war, hunger, overpopulation) are "facts" of life.

Actually three things: 3.) all this sage wisdom comes from a talking Gorilla. No shit...

Please bear with me!

Example - World population and hunger: There will ALWAYS be an exponential expansion of population beyond the means of production, and this is illustrated deftly (i...more

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Feb 18, 2009

Jensownzoo rated it

Shelves: fiction, favorites

Well, this is a sociology/ecology lecture loosely disguised as a novel that makes you sit back and say "why didn't I think of that, it's so obvious to me now!" And it's done in a way that continually builds on the presented ideas so that you understand the concepts from the ground up. Loved it. Think everyone should read it.

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Nov 29, 2008

Deb, the Word Muse rated it

Recommends it for: everyone.

Recommended to Deb, the Word Muse by: required for a class on human nature.

Shelves: philosophy, fiction

Ishmael is a story about stories and the stories we tell ourselves and our societies to justify what we do and why we do it.

Now I'll try to explain that: I read Ishmael for a class on human nature and one assignment was to articulate a characteristic I believe is essential to human nature. Before starting this book, I had already begun considering the idea that an essential part of human nature is storytelling - explaining why things are the way they are and how they got this way an...more

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Apr 24, 2009

April rated it

Recommends it for: Kevin, James, Jen, Angela... the hippies. :>

Shelves: philosophy-religion

Definitely a hippie book, at first I thought the philosophy behind it was all about saving nature, the rainforests, blah blah.. :> But it's really about something deeper, challenging human 'nature' as we know it. Truly an amazing book.

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May 15, 2008

Ian rated it

Recommends it for: co-op shoppers, liberals, crystal children

Recommended to Ian by: fate

The quintessential hippie college book. Years after college, I found it left on a beach in Hawaii, like so many LaRouche pamplets on university campuses, and read it in a few sittings. To anyone with half a brain and some college education, a lot of this book will seem painfully obvious, as this type of thinking has so permeated public conciousness in recent years. But if you can turn the volume down on your censors even a little, there's much to be appreciated here. I will never look at zoos th...more

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Jan 02, 2009

Jeff rated it

My wife has been after me to read this book for years now. I was somewhat tenative about it...I was actually downright stubborn about not reading it...but finally relented, and I'm glad that I did.

To say the least, an unusual use of the Socratic dialogue structure to discuss the place of mankind in the world. And while I see Quinn's point, and realize that what he is saying is for all intents and purposes "the truth," I also understand, as the narrator in the book undoub...more

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Jan 26, 2012

C.S. Lune rated it

Shelves: philosophical, school

dear reader,

Ishmael was part of my English AP curriculum. This is a small excerpt from my 1000 word long essay.

Ishmael is a really intriguing and perturbing book. The style is simple, with extensive and continuous dialogue, and the content is didactic. I guess this book is worth reading, but I warn you: several parts might bother you.

Quinn is correct in several aspects of the issues and themes his book demonstrates, but he goes way too far into utopianism and radica...moredear reader,

Ishmael was part of my English AP curriculum. This is a small excerpt from my 1000 word long essay.

Ishmael is a really intriguing and perturbing book. The style is simple, with extensive and continuous dialogue, and the content is didactic. I guess this book is worth reading, but I warn you: several parts might bother you.

Quinn is correct in several aspects of the issues and themes his book demonstrates, but he goes way too far into utopianism and radicalism. The ultimate lesson in this book is: “Humans believe that they are the end-all be-all of evolution, and therefore the planet belongs to them to do as they please, and that's what's going to kill us, sooner than later”. I do not disagree there, but Quinn’s solutions are a bunch of unrealistic theories based on going back to our hunter-gatherer lifestyle, decrease food production to control the population growth, and live “simpler” lives in our ever so complex era.

The main argument of the book is that humankind is doomed since the beginning of civilization, when we, human beings, began to tame the environment, hence “founding” agriculture. Quinn emphasizes in the natural harmony before civilizations began, when humankind was still living at the mercy of nature (as hunter-gatherers) and following all the rules of Nature as the best way to preserve our Earth. However, he misses the point that the agricultural revolution was inevitable! Without evolution and advancement, we would still be hunting our food, hoping to stone the poor animal to death before eating it; we wouldn’t have the commodities and advantages we enjoy right now; and careers such as writing wouldn’t exist. Without evolution and advancement, there’s stagnation.

The journey of the narrator with his teacher (a gorilla) is to find the answer to the question: how to save the world; thus transforming this book into a complete sermon about how we’re destroying our planet. In my opinion, I think everybody knows what’s happening to our planet; with the extensive scientific explanation, research, and writing, and the changes we’re experiencing in our daily lives as regard to climate, temperature, and natural landscape, who can miss it? Unless of course, you’re choosing to ignore it. Anyway, it’s far harder to solve our problems than knowing the answer.

It’s outrageous when he proposes to limit food production in order to control population growth. Is he suggesting we starve the poor and overpopulated countries (Asia and Africa) to death? Education is the solution. This book may seem impressive and “life-changing” if you hadn’t have experience with philosophy and haven’t kept up with current environmental issues. Speaking of philosophy, I feel Quinn abuses of the Socratic Method in his dialogue, making his character look unbelievingly stupid. There always seem to be a question to be answered to shed more light into the situation, leaving the answer with more holes for further questioning.

happy reading.

my fondest valedictory,

CS(less)

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Jan 19, 2012

Kristina Martin rated it

Shelves: book-club

I first read this book when I was 19 and remember being very moved by it. It's always been a book I recommend to anyone with an open mind over the years. I always struggled with explaining it to others when they ask what it's about and would say "okay, if you can get over the fact that there is a taking gorilla then you'd like it. It's kind of philosophical I guess."

Well, recently it was my turn to pick a book for book club and I picked this one. Having not read it for 12...more

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About Daniel Quinn

Daniel Quinn (born 1935 in Omaha, Nebraska) is a U.S. writer.
He studied at St. Louis University, the University of Vienna, and Loyola University of Chicago, receiving a bachelor's degree in English, cum laude, in 1957.
He is best known for his book Ishmael (1992), which won the Turner Tomorrow Fellowship Award in 1991.

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Books by Daniel Quinn

The Story of B: An Adventure of the Mind and Spirit

Beyond Civilization: Humanity's Next Great Adventure

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