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Discourses on Livy

by Niccolò Machiavelli, Harvey C. Mansfield (Translator), Nathan Tarcov (Translator)

3.95 of 5 stars 3.95 · rating details · 2,545 ratings · 56 reviews

Discourses on Livy is the founding document of modern republicanism, and Harvey C. Mansfield and Nathan Tarcov have provided the definitive English translation of this classic work. Faithful to the original Italian text, properly attentive to Machiavelli's idiom and subtlety of thought, it is eminently readable. With a substantial introduction, extensive explanatory notes,...more

Paperback, 424 pages

Published January 28th 1998 by University Of Chicago Press (first published 1513)

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Jul 17, 2012 Mohammed Alaa Kalaji rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

لست أفهم كيف لا يدرك البعض سوء عملهم !
وكيف لم يدرك المترجم أو الناشر أو من أخرج هذا الكتاب إلى القراء سوء عمله ورداءته !
الترجمة سيئة للغاية والجمل مفككة وعلامات الترقيم شبه غائبة والجمل المعترضة أكثر من الكلام الأساسي ذاته

على الرغم من ذلك ... الكتاب جيد ... وفيه شيء قيم يستحق القراءة
والفضل ليمكيافيللي بالطبع
يتحدث الكتاب بشكل أساسي عن روما والامبراطورية الرومانية ونظام الحكم فيها
ثم يخرج من الخاص إلى العام ... فيجعل من قوانين ونظم روما وأوضاعها قواعد عامة للحكم في أي دولة أخرى، وعلى ذمة الناشر ب...more

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Feb 22, 2009 Gary rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Considering the social and cultural landscape of the contemporary West, one cannot help but wonder whether we can pull out of our downward slide, and what are the odds of doing so.

An interesting analysis of this issue is provided by Machiavelli, in his "Discourses" (1517). In this deeply insightful book, a commentary on the work of the Roman historian Titus Livius (Livy), Machiavelli examines the ebb and flow of the Roman republic, applying its lessons to the affairs of his own era, and to the l...more

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Dec 27, 2012 Ben rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

I read this along with "The Prince" and (as can be deemed by my review of that work), it was certainly very interesting comparing Machiavelli's views in the two works. In "The Prince" (about contemporary political ills, and addressed to Lorenzo De' Medici) there is a strong authoritarian sentiment expressed, while in "The Discourses" (largely about Ancient Rome), there are strong republican sentiments -- trust of the will of the people and of freedom and liberty. While it could be said that Mach...more

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Jan 03, 2011 Joe rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Comment:

The 'Discourses' are a mystery to many people only acquainted with 'The Prince'. Their initial 'surface' reading had convinced them that ol' Nick was on the side of a strong Individual (Prince, King) ruling through his virtù. But this was only at the surface! If you go through the 'Prince' a second time, searching for any mention of the aristocrats (Barons, Dukes, Factions, etc.) you will be amazed how Machiavelli never seems to have much respect for them. They always get in the way! The...more

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Feb 13, 2013 Bertrand rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

The common wisdom goes that Machiavelli's discourses present to the reader the author's republican side, whereas The Prince was more aimed at the 'godlike rulers' - indeed, under the cover of a commentary of Livy, one of the foremost classical text of Roman origin, Nicolo takes us on a journey not unlike the one he proposed to the reader of The Prince. Distinguished once again by his penetrating insights prefiguring psychology, sociology, political sciences, and calling upon strategy and common...more The common wisdom goes that Machiavelli's discourses present to the reader the author's republican side, whereas The Prince was more aimed at the 'godlike rulers' - indeed, under the cover of a commentary of Livy, one of the foremost classical text of Roman origin, Nicolo takes us on a journey not unlike the one he proposed to the reader of The Prince. Distinguished once again by his penetrating insights prefiguring psychology, sociology, political sciences, and calling upon strategy and common sense but with a verve and method at time borrowing from philosophy, it is yet again his amoralism that will leave it's most lasting impression:
But if here again Machiavelli attempt to remain ever neutral, to cater as much to the the ruler as to the insurgent, maybe more than in The Prince one can now outline first the peculiar ideological order that sustain his worldview (Virtus, Necessitas, Prudentia and Fortuna) and maybe more importantly, the hushed moral preferences that connect back his writings to his life-long dedication to the republican ideals.
The book, beyond providing any reader with this much needed second angle to examine Machiavelli's peculiar opinions also make for an excellent, entertaining read: less so, maybe, than The Prince, mainly because the book is presented as a commentary, and lacks the sustained transitiveness of his more famous work, but it is none the less woven tightly with dozens of examples, taken either from 'recent' Italian history (undearstand late Quatrocento and early XVIth century) or from Greek and Roman history, with which the author intend to illustrate his comprehensive encyclopedia of cunning decepetion, of crowd psychology, of war strategy, etc.
Whereas as we said earlier, not all of his ideas appear as daring and original as they did in The Prince, many of the examples make up for this lack by providing the eager reader with as many epic tales of daring and heroic or vicious and manipulative deeds that shaped ancient history: any aspiring George R. Martin will find in this book a condensé of the plots, all the scheming Greeks and Romans have to offer, and they certainly had nothing to learn from the Lannisters!
So. All in all if you have an interest in either early modern mindset, in political theory or in Machiavelli in particular, this is a necessary read. It does genuinely provide a necessary counterpart to his magnum opus and give this peculiar character the moral depth popular memory robbed him from. (less)

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Jan 26, 2013 Wonbae rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Many know about Machiavelli's famous (or infamous) "The Prince" but few have read his other prominent work, "the Discourses on Livy." It is a puzzling matter when one considers how two works written by the same author can present such contrasting views on statecraft or politics. "The Prince" is essentially a political manual for princely rulers while the "discourses" is book espousing republics as an ideal form of government. Note that this book would be recommended for those who have already re...more

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Feb 09, 2011 Emre Poyraz rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

While Niccolo Machiavelli is famous for his "evil" book, the Prince, I believe this is his real masterpiece. In this book, he tries to identify what can be called the "macro" foundations of a well working republic, and his source material is the historical comparison of the Roman Empire (from the books of Titus Livius) and contemporary cities and republics. The language of the book is very compelling, and it is usually hard to argue with anything in the book.

I suggest this book to anyone intere...more

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Oct 06, 2010 Redsteve rated it 3 of 5 stars

Shelves: nonfiction, period, history, renaissance, classical-period, roman-republic, politics, italy, venice, greece-macedonia-aegean, alexander-the-great-hellenistic

What's important to remember when reading Machievelli, is just how shocking much of what he said was in his day. A modern reader, steeped in the cynicism of 20th/21st Century politics might say "Well, duh," about some of his observations, but much of what Machievelli said about honor, religion and politics wasn't said (or at least published) in his age. Not to say that a lot of rulers in late 15th/early 16th Century Italy weren't acting in the ways that he observed - people just didn't say so. M...more

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Nov 09, 2012 Shelby rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: favorites

If you're just starting to read Machiavelli, you should read this, THEN "The Prince". This book gives a very clear idea of Machiavelli's socio-political beliefs, and also puts "The Prince" into perspective. While not as easy a read as "The Prince" (this was written for Machiavelli's more scholarly friends, while "The Prince" was dumbed down because the intended audience for that book wasn't so clever), this book is a must-read for anyone who wants to understand Machiavelli, and considering his b...more

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May 09, 2013 Eddy Allen rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: arts-and-historical

Few figures in intellectual history have proved as notorious and ambiguousas Niccolo Machiavelli. But while his treatise The Prince made his name synonymous with autocratic ruthlessness and cynical manipulation, The Discourses (c.1517) shows a radically different outlook on the world of politics.In this carefully argued commentary on Livy's history ofrepublican Rome, Machiavelli proposed a system of government that would uphold civic freedom and security by instilling the virtues of active citiz...more

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Dec 27, 2012 Yann rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: philosophie, politique, renaissance, italie

Dans cet ouvrage, Nicolas Machiavel, Florentin de la renaissance, livre les réflexions que lui ont inspirées la lecture des dix premiers livres de l'histoire de Rome de Tite-Live, tout en nuançant les avis de l'historien romain par sa propre expérience politique comme diplomate. Machiavel sent le souffre, dans la mesure où son nom nous a légué un adjectif fort peu recommandable : machiavélique. On l'applique à ceux qui sont parfaitement dénués de scrupules ou de pitié, pour qui la fin justifie l...more Dans cet ouvrage, Nicolas Machiavel, Florentin de la renaissance, livre les réflexions que lui ont inspirées la lecture des dix premiers livres de l'histoire de Rome de Tite-Live, tout en nuançant les avis de l'historien romain par sa propre expérience politique comme diplomate. Machiavel sent le souffre, dans la mesure où son nom nous a légué un adjectif fort peu recommandable : machiavélique. On l'applique à ceux qui sont parfaitement dénués de scrupules ou de pitié, pour qui la fin justifie les moyens, et qui subordonnent la morale à l'intérêt. C'est une répugnance compréhensible que nous inspire un tel caractère, mais il ne faudrait pas pour autant négliger les avis de celui que Montesquieu appelait justement le très pénétrant Machiavel. Également, le père de l'esprit des Lois faisait grand cas de Tite-Live: il m'avait poussé à le lire, et c'est tout naturellement que je me suis précipité sur le présent ouvrage dès que j'ai découvert son existence.

Utiliser l'histoire pour comprendre les lois de la science politique, et mieux prévoir l'avenir : Hérodote avait déjà ce souci, et les meilleurs historiens ont travaillé à léguer à la postérité ce κτῆμα ἐς ἀεί, ce trésor pour toujours, car ce sont toujours de choses humaines qu'il s'agit, en dépit des siècles qui s'écoulent. L'autre voie, c'est la voie spéculative des utopies et des systèmes: c'est imaginer le monde tel qu'il devrait être, sans se laisser arrêter par ce qu'il est, mais au risque de se laisser éblouir par ce qui ne pourrait être. Pour Machiavel, s'appuyer sur un savoir solide est fondamental, car les rêves de société parfaite ont fait long feu: l'impatience des antiques à parvenir à une synthèse a été mise à mal par les constats des modernes. L'échec de la secte chrétienne lui saute aux yeux, alors que c'est en Italie où elle est la plus puissante qu'elle est la moins respectée, et qu'au moment même où il compose son ouvrage, Luther s'active en Allemagne à la renverser. Ce n'est pas une boussole qu'il nous fournit, mais une carte précise et minutieuse. Si une partie de sa doctrine peu être dégagée comme un système, une autre partie semble juste être des règles sans liens établi avec le reste, comme s'il avait formé une ébauche qu'il appartiendrait à la postérité de compléter.

La doctrine de Machiavel découle pour un état d'une exigence première : la sécurité, le besoin de se regrouper pour assurer la jouissance de ses biens et la sûreté des personnes. Cette sécurité peut être troublée soit par des facteurs internes ou externes. Le remède souverain que Machiavel préconise, c'est la liberté. La liberté fait les meilleurs armées, chacun luttant avec plus d'ardeur. Se reposer sur sa richesse pour sa sécurité est absurde: c'est au contraire la voie la plus courte pour être asservi. Mais la liberté assure aussi une sécurité intérieur, grâce à une lutte constante entre riches et pauvres. Machiavel considère qu'il est souhaitable qu'aucune faction ne l'emporte jamais sur l'autre, mais que chacune se batte sans relâche pour l'emporter : c'est ainsi que la liberté est cultivée, et il faut beaucoup moins craindre les légers troubles qu'ils provoquent qu'une trompeuse tranquillité bientôt annonciatrice de servitude et de ruine.

Pour autant, il ne fait pas mystère de son attachement net pour le peuple, qu'il juge beaucoup plus sage et à même de prendre les bonnes décisions nécessaires à son salut. Il tranche avec l'opinion classique des anciens: il était d'usage de fustiger l'humeur changeante de la foule, et la démocratie était fréquemment dénigrée. Machiavel démontre que si la foule est inconstante, c'est bien pire pour les riches et les puissants, qui sont de beaucoup les plus en proie aux passions de l'avidité et de la superbe, choses par lesquelles la foule n'est pas corrompue. Pour conserver la liberté, l'expédient qu'il préconise avec la liberté, c'est un état riche, et des citoyens pauvres. Machiavel n'aime pas la noblesse, et, en fervent républicain, adepte comme il est des solutions extrêmes, il plaide sans ambages pour le fer. En dehors de son système, il évoque de nombreuses règles qu'il serait fastidieux d'énumérer, mais qui souvent se rapportent à la conduite de la guerre, ainsi que sa préparation: toutes choses très nécessaire à la sécurité de l'état, principe primordial chez Machiavel.

La méthode de Machiavel consiste à exposer chaque règle le plus clairement possible, puis de citer les exemples antiques et modernes à partir desquels il l'a inférée. Lorsque cette règle est paradoxale, il en explique la raison. Le ton qu'il emploie est celui de l'objectivité, et la seule passion qui ressort, c'est le dépit de voir le peu de cas que ses contemporains aux affaires font du savoir qu'ils gagneraient à mettre à profit, et qu'ils dédaignent par présomption, manque de prudence et folie. Il fustige également le christianisme, pour avoir insufflé trop de patience chez les bons à souffrir les abus des méchants, ce qui a finalement encouragé ces derniers plutôt que les avoir contenus. Le plus souvent, ses exposés en imposent grandement, car il joint l'expérience au savoir livresque, et semble animé par le pur amour de la vérité, n'hésitant pas à la montrer même sous ses aspects les plus laids et les moins plaisants. N'est ce pas un peu triste d'affirmer que nous n'agissons bien que lorsque finalement la nécessité nous presse ? Aussi, la rigueur de certaines de ses opinions ne manqueront pas de mettre sérieusement notre sens moral à l'épreuve, surtout qu'il déconseille toujours fortement la voie moyenne, celle qui le plus souvent est vouée à l'échec.

Il suffit d'avoir des yeux pour constater que l'idéal républicain que Machiavel avait lu dans Tite-Live et corrigé avec son expérience, avant de le jeter sur le papier, est devenu en grande part notre réalité d'aujourd'hui. Aussi, je ne saurais trop conseiller la lecture de ce petit texte, dont le plus grand mérite est une grande clarté nécessaire pour l'intelligence du monde, et que j'ai de beaucoup préféré au Prince. Je pense qu'on gagnera beaucoup à la lecture préalable de Tite-Live, laquelle est aussi édifiante qu'agréable. Cette édition doit aussi être louée pour la richesse de son appareil critique, qui ne manque jamais de préciser les sources des allusions de Machiavel, et les corrige lorsque celles-ci ont été gauchies.(less)

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Nov 28, 2009 Mike rated it 3 of 5 stars · review of another edition

It took me forever, but I finally finished the book. An old A&E television series on great books included a section on Machiavelli. One of the commentators, Henry Kissinger, noted that Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy was a must read to obtain a balanced view on the author's political beliefs. The book offers an analysis on almost every type of governance problem. Of course, some of the solutions would not fare well today. However, I do believe that one could develop a foreign relations scor...more

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Sep 17, 2007 Teggan rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Yes, you had to read The Prince, because your professor had to fit something of Machiavelli's into the class, and so she chose the shortest of his works to keep the students bitching to a minimum. The Prince represents a small subset of Machiavelli's concept of government. The recommendations from The Prince are a necessary evil that must be tolerated for a short time. The Discourses are a more substantial analysis of the preferred type of government for the long term.
Thank your professor that...more

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May 28, 2009 Kw Estes rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Shelves: the-best-of-them

This book, though of course not as highly renowned as The Prince, arguably holds much more utility for assessing the world of Western politics in this day and age. Written in a semi-historical manner, it contains lessons of the preferred methods of governance that have no doubt influenced the logic behind many of the structural and institutional frameworks of American and European politics for the last four centuries.

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Jan 15, 2010 Adrian Colesberry rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Wonderfully readable, just like the Prince. After the disorientation of the last eight years, I wanted to get back in touch with the basic documents that this country was founded on. When I learned that the Discourses were the basis of the constitution (through Rousseau, et al) I picked it up. Very rewarding.

The first and second books are wonderful. He very much straddles what you'd think of as conservative or liberal in his advice for a republic. He certainly wouldn't see the partisan bickering...more

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Nov 26, 2008 Bastian Andika Jaya Hutagaol rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Buku untuk para penguasa, pemimpin, yang mesti memilih antara ditakuti
atau dicintai...sebab tak ada jalan untuk memilih keduanya. ngerilah ini buku lengkap dengan susunan aturan kewarganegaraan, aturan agama, aturan pemerintahan, juga aturan dalam menyusun perang. herannya, padahal Machiavelli adalah seorang pengamat yang bekerja sampai puluhan tahun, bikanlah seorang penguasanya sendiri....

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Sep 15, 2009 Ari rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Recommended to Ari by: dad

The Discourses is Machiavelli's longest and most detailed work of political philosophy. It's a very complex book, but even a superficial reading will reveal a great deal.

This is Harvey Mansfield's translation, with a lengthy preface, pointing out a number of interesting aspects, and points in the book deserving attention.

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Sep 26, 2012 Anton Berger rated it 4 of 5 stars · review of another edition

if you are going to read "the Prince" you must read this as well. "the Prince" is Machiavelli's advice to a prince on how to rule, "Discourses" is his personal thoughts on what would make the best political system. the similarity of his thoughts on both subjects was fascinating to me, as much as the differences.

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May 23, 2012 mwr rated it 5 of 5 stars

Shelves: pre-30-s, dissertation, philosophy

Max Weber once said that the true politician is the one who can balance an ethic of responsibility and an ethic of absolute ends. Machiavelli does a pretty nice job here of arguing that there can be no true politician, but that a proper republic can serve this end better than any of its individual citizens.

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Jan 08, 2009 Jeff rated it 3 of 5 stars

Shelves: political-philosophy, classic-works

Not as well known or as "fun" as The Prince. Discourses on Livy is in large measure I more important work. As Mansfield and Tarcov point out it in their excellent Introduction, the Discourses is the founding document of modern republicanism.

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Jul 27, 2009 James K rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

If you want to know what he REALLY, really thought, check it out. Interesting to note the changes from before his years of torture. Yes, he was tortured for his politics. Fuck, this dude's smart.

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Oct 18, 2012 Jeni Enjaian added it · review of another edition

This book is vital for any historian (or history lover) to read, especially if the only thing he associates Machiavelli with is "The Prince". This book gives a much fuller view of Machiavelli's political theory.

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Jan 03, 2010 Corey Rowe rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

i think you all know how i feel about this man-my hero, the man who made me want to study history, or at least keep going once what i had studied made me feel like an idiot:)

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May 03, 2013 Halli Well rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

One of the best books ever written in human history about Politics and human nature itself. Machiavelli is a genius.

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Dec 12, 2011 hirtho added it · review of another edition

Recommended to hirtho by: Great Books/PEL podcast

Shelves: philosophy

tran H. Neville 1675 203pgs

I basically got nothing out of this, most likely being too stupid for it or, as i like to think of it, too good for it

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Mar 30, 2012 Colin Bruce Milne rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Read it in Renaissance and Reformation History course Waikato University.

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Mar 03, 2011 Maxo Marc added it · review of another edition

I love me some Machiavelli because some of his insights are relevant today.

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Jan 25, 2009 Jor-dahn rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

"All I need to know about Government I learned from Machiavelli."

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Dec 22, 2011 Ahsan marked it as to-read

Woohoo, this book is now available in Amazon's Kindle store!

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Jun 21, 2011 Misha rated it 5 of 5 stars · review of another edition

Should be read with "The Prince"

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About Niccolò Machiavelli

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli was an Italian political philosopher, musician, poet, and romantic comedic playwright. He is a figure of the Italian Renaissance and a central figure of its political component, most widely known for his treatises on realist political theory (The Prince) on the one hand and republicanism (Discourses on Livy) on the other.

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“Men are driven by two two principal impulses, either by love or by fear.” — 128 people liked it

“With regard to prudence and stability, I say a people is more prudent, more stable and more just than a prince.” — 19 people liked it

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